Powered to Gliding
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A glider pilot, on average, will generally have a more refined knowledge of the weather, better knowledge of aerodynamics, better decision making skills and a better lookout than a power pilot. They wont know the best way to start a hot wet lycoming but thats about it.
Going out flying on days where ALL the powered aircraft are firmly tucked inside the hangars cause the weather is ****e, out go the gliders. Radio procedures are a joke and they seem to think what is a fairly busy CTAF(R) freq can be used for a personal chit chat.
Just a couple of the calls ive heard in the last couple of weeks:
-Glider to glider base "What is the wind doing, just wondering what
runway i should land on"
-Glider to tower "Its pretty dark out here are we expecting rain?"
tower replies "well the forecast indicates that we (and the most of the state) are expecting thunderstorms from about now"
Obviously their superior knowledge of MET doesn't inculde instructions on how to tune up an AWIS or read a TAF
- Glider base asking for position reports
glider replies "we are at postion XYZ at 5700" "
glider base replies "you are in CONTROLLED AIRSPACE suggest you descend"..........really you think?
Im told by a glider pilot who started out in powered that most of them at the club where he flies set their altimeters to QFE and have little or no knowledge about altimetry or CTA.
My personal favourite:
- After returning from a flight of several hours and hooking up the data logger, glider pilot is discovered to have been loitering in a Restricted area and couldn't understand why upon his return he got a verbal bashing for flying around at 300' AGL over a military live firing range
Now im not narrow minded enough to be slandering all glider or trying to start a powered v gliding debate, im sure there are plenty of experienced and knowledgeable glider pilots and that there will always be a small minority of bad eggs. What sort of theory knowledge requirements are there to receive a gliding certificate? Are you required to pass any exams that test knowledge of airspace requirements, MET etc?
Im asking as a legit question, not trying to be a smart
Last edited by gettin' there; 14th Oct 2008 at 08:48.
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Hi Gettin'There,
Wow, those guys sound... bad. In my experience they don't represent the wider gliding community.
Regarding theory questions, please see http://www.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/abc_certificates.pdf
I don't think that there are any formal nation-wide examinations aside from those oral questions listed above.
Wow, those guys sound... bad. In my experience they don't represent the wider gliding community.
Regarding theory questions, please see http://www.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/abc_certificates.pdf
I don't think that there are any formal nation-wide examinations aside from those oral questions listed above.
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A rough conversion syllabus
Hi OZZI_PPL,
as a Level 2 Instructor (an Instructor who can send you solo), this is a rough syllabus of what you would need to do before going solo:
This is 'do-able' in a day and I have done it many times. It's a full day and you'll know you've been put through the ringer at the end!! Just remember that it is all competency based and some 'get it' a little faster or slower than others. Two areas that seem problematic for most power pilots is to use their feet (for the rudder) and circuit planning...if you mess it up you can't hit the throttle and go around. While these things may seem obvious, in practice this is an entirely different matter.
as a Level 2 Instructor (an Instructor who can send you solo), this is a rough syllabus of what you would need to do before going solo:
- Settle in – general aircraft handling – upper air work – primary and secondary controls revision
- on tow – all tow – upper air work – circuit planning, noting difference between power and glider – side slipping
- on tow – all tow – intro to thermalling/ turns with angle of bank greater than 45%
- on tow – all tow - out of position on tow – stalling and spinning – no instrument – modified circuit
- on tow – all tow – box slipstream and simulated hook-up – spiral dive demo identification - no instruments – modified circuit
- on tow – all tow – right hand circuit- rules of the air – no instruments
- Emergency – land straight ahead
- Emergency – low level return to field
- Emergency – modified circuit/straight in/right hand circuit - no instruments -to check the pilots decision making skills – rules of the air
- a settler with no checks – rules of the air – if competent send solo
This is 'do-able' in a day and I have done it many times. It's a full day and you'll know you've been put through the ringer at the end!! Just remember that it is all competency based and some 'get it' a little faster or slower than others. Two areas that seem problematic for most power pilots is to use their feet (for the rudder) and circuit planning...if you mess it up you can't hit the throttle and go around. While these things may seem obvious, in practice this is an entirely different matter.
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getting there
"Im asking as a legit question, not trying to be a smart ass" Had you actually just asked a question we might have believed you. Instead you chose to percede your question with a dubious set of anecdotes. I have flown from many gliding sites and frankly I do not believe what you wrote. Even IF your stories were true, I could tell you a litany of anecdotes of apalling behaviour by GA pilots. Whom of course never infringe airspace and always keep the radio chat to a minimum! (If you believe that I have a bridge in Sydney for sale...... Just one example, a Tobago crossing at 90 degrees an active winch launch runway, well marked on maps, at 500 feet. No response to radio calls on the CTAF. BTW, how many times have you had to go around in your first 150 hours flying? Guess how many times I have in my first 150-none. A glider pilot who doesnt get it right first time has no option to go around, and therefore is usually much more skilled than an equvalent GA. All that said flying "under"-and I mean under, the GFA sucks badly. An outdated senile organisation that simply will be dead in about 20 years from incredibly poor management as a result of an electoral system that Robert Mugabe would love to have. Carefully arranged so only a select few get to vote for the board. To fly a glider you have to join 3 organisations, a club, the state gliding association and the GFA-its a joke.
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A glider pilot who doesnt get it right first time has no option to go around, and therefore is usually much more skilled than an equvalent GA
But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good!
The reality is that a glider glider pilot in anything from the old Blanik on up has so much glide performance "up his sleeve", that the end result is not all that different from having an engine up front. You have to work a bit at coming down (ie by deploying speed brakes/spoilers/whatever). If at any time you look like undershooting, all you have to do it put the speed brakes/spoilers away and maintain best glide speed. Combine that with some sort of resonable positioning in the glider circuit and approaches and landing are no more or less demanding than they are for a power pilot.
But make a complete hash of the basics in either a glider or an aeroplane and it is likely to end in tears.
The gliding instructor who sent me solo used to demonstrate the performance of the Blanik by getting so low on final appr that you could no longer see the threshold (at Warwick - when the aerodrome sits on a bit of a ridge that drops away either end of the runway) - then he would put the speed brakes/spoilers away - and touch down halfway along a 5000' runway!
GG
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Practically, the bigger bear getting used to how different the circuit can be on 2 different days - in nil wind it can be quite flat as described... then come in on a 25kt day in something draggy like a K13. Very easy to get hung out too far, and even if you don't, your final approach feels like a stuka attack 
Oh, and there's not many glider pilots around that would use blanik and performance in the same sentence
Oh, and there's not many glider pilots around that would use blanik and performance in the same sentence
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When the weather turns to c**p and there isnt any lift around or worse you get caught in a microburst there is always heaps in reserve.
Try putting any aeroplne/glider down in a football oval cause its the only place you have
Try putting any aeroplne/glider down in a football oval cause its the only place you have
Powered to Gliding - More Info
I am CFI at Canberra GC at Bunyan 10km N of Cooma.
Power to Gliding Conversions are relatively straightforward - and we have this guidance on our website at Canberra Gliding Club and Learn to Fly Gliders
Quote
Already a Power Pilot?
Many power pilots come to enjoy the purity and challenge of soaring flight. Whilst gliding builds upon the skills and knowledge base of powered flying, there are many challenges, new techniques and educational aspects to be explored.
In the context of controlling the aircraft, power pilots will notice the increased significance of rudder in countering aileron drag, elevator in controlling airspeed and attitude, and trim in reducing pilot workload. Attitude reference relative to the horizon is always emphasised as the primary reference, particularly for airspeed energy management.
Used to coordinating turns with the ball? Many gliders and sailplanes do not have the slip-skid ball, and use a yawstring affixed to the canopy instead. The yawstring operates in reverse to the ball: you pull the yawstring back to centre with rudder, or alternatively apply aileron towards the yawstring. It is a far more sensitive instrument than any ball or turn and slip indicator.
Circuits and landings present new challenges in judgement and energy management, without a throttle to adjust the approach path. Use of airbrakes to steepen the approach will be an enjoyable luxury; the opposite of normal power-off landings!
Many power pilots come to appreciate the learning curve associated with using the atmosphere to advantage, working lift and staying airborne without a powerplant. The challenges in soaring cross-country flight planning and execution are quite different to the usual A to B speed-time-distance-fuel planning in powered aircraft.
Oh yes, it is much quieter! Headsets are not required, except in some motor-gliders. The noise of airflow past the canopy (or the absence of noise) takes on new significance as an important indicator of airspeed and energy.
A huge difference will be the reduced cost per flight, as the fun per dollar ratio is very favourable!
Already a Hang Glider Pilot?
A growing number of glider pilots are also hang-glider pilots. Most hang-glider pilots will have to adapt to a reversal of their instinctive control responses. Instead of pushing on the bar to slow down and raise the nose, you will have to ease the stick back! Vice versa also - to speed up when flying too slow, in lowering the nose, you apply forward pressure on the stick, instead of drawing the bar closer to the body! Control use by three-axis control versus weight-shifting takes a little adjustment.
All the meteorological insights of hang-gliding are useful - but we usually do not work thermals as close to the ground as in hang-gliding. The speeds and altitude safety margins are a little higher. Landing at higher speeds also means using larger landing areas.
All hang-glider pilots find the gliding performance of even the most humble training glider and enormous advantage. The cross-country speeds and glide angles mean you can travel much further before regaining altitude in lift. You can also fly and land very safely in much more boisterous and gusty conditions, due to the higher wing loadings.
Most glider flights result in a landing at the same place you launched from. For many hill-soaring hang-glider pilots, this is sheer luxury! Long climbs and retrieves are less frequent when flying gliders and sailplanes!
Already a Balloonist?
We always land at or near our take-off location. Controllability when landing is improved, and landing on wheels improves the ground roll! Gliders handle more windy conditions in safety. The wind noise of air past the canopy will take some getting used to. Burner roar is non-existent!
These tongue-in-cheek observations aside, the finesse and atmospheric awareness, meteorlogical knowledge and airmanship skills of balloonists will be a tremendous advantage in gliding and soaring.
Unquote
You have already got good reliable advice on the few flights and emergency procedures issues you would cover in conversions. Once solo, off checks, then you should do your A, B and C certificates, which is equivelant to GFPT and PPL. Once you have your C you would be cleared for "family-friend" passenger operations, and previous PPL experience would certainly be relevant in accelerating that progress - in particular the passenger management and distraction experience.
The Manual of Standrad oprocedures says:
C Certificate - Requirements
•A total of 20 solo or mutual flights, including two solo soaring flights of at
least one hour's duration each.
•Trained and checked in ability to carry out a safe outlanding.
•Received a passenger awareness briefing using the "Air Experience" section in
Part 2 of the Instructor's Handbook (pages 8 to 12) as a reference.
•Oral examination on basic theory, navigation, meteorology, airways
procedures, outlanding hazards, post-outlanding actions and SAR
requirements.
•Satisfactory demonstration of spin entry and recovery.
Notes on requirements
1. This means an overall total of 20 solo/mutual flights.
2. Only time in command of mutual flights may count towards a "C" Certificate.
3. Power pilots holding a Student or higher licence may count 10 powered
landings as pilot-in-command towards a "C" Certificate, but must meet the
soaring requirements.
Privileges and limitations.
•May fly cross-country at the discretion of the CFI/CIP.
•May carry private passengers (i.e. not for hire or reward and not introductory
flights under GFA temporary membership), under the provisions of a Private
Passenger Rating as described in 16.2.4.
In other words, straightforward for most early solo pilots.
The GFA website has a heap of info at The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc. - Home. Links to Gliding Clubs are at The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc. - Gliding Clubs in Australia
There is also a new site at Soaring Australia also with links to clubs.
Much has been said above on Independent Operators - this is all about people wishing to fly without the operational oversight of a gliding club. The GFA MOSP is under Documents in the Operations link on the GFA website and explains the rationale.
I hope this helps.
BTW I flew gliders from 1970 (Woomera GC - Ka7 VH-GNU) and still love it.
I converted to power flying in 2003 and love it too
Power to Gliding Conversions are relatively straightforward - and we have this guidance on our website at Canberra Gliding Club and Learn to Fly Gliders
Quote
Already a Power Pilot?
Many power pilots come to enjoy the purity and challenge of soaring flight. Whilst gliding builds upon the skills and knowledge base of powered flying, there are many challenges, new techniques and educational aspects to be explored.
In the context of controlling the aircraft, power pilots will notice the increased significance of rudder in countering aileron drag, elevator in controlling airspeed and attitude, and trim in reducing pilot workload. Attitude reference relative to the horizon is always emphasised as the primary reference, particularly for airspeed energy management.
Used to coordinating turns with the ball? Many gliders and sailplanes do not have the slip-skid ball, and use a yawstring affixed to the canopy instead. The yawstring operates in reverse to the ball: you pull the yawstring back to centre with rudder, or alternatively apply aileron towards the yawstring. It is a far more sensitive instrument than any ball or turn and slip indicator.
Circuits and landings present new challenges in judgement and energy management, without a throttle to adjust the approach path. Use of airbrakes to steepen the approach will be an enjoyable luxury; the opposite of normal power-off landings!
Many power pilots come to appreciate the learning curve associated with using the atmosphere to advantage, working lift and staying airborne without a powerplant. The challenges in soaring cross-country flight planning and execution are quite different to the usual A to B speed-time-distance-fuel planning in powered aircraft.
Oh yes, it is much quieter! Headsets are not required, except in some motor-gliders. The noise of airflow past the canopy (or the absence of noise) takes on new significance as an important indicator of airspeed and energy.
A huge difference will be the reduced cost per flight, as the fun per dollar ratio is very favourable!
Already a Hang Glider Pilot?
A growing number of glider pilots are also hang-glider pilots. Most hang-glider pilots will have to adapt to a reversal of their instinctive control responses. Instead of pushing on the bar to slow down and raise the nose, you will have to ease the stick back! Vice versa also - to speed up when flying too slow, in lowering the nose, you apply forward pressure on the stick, instead of drawing the bar closer to the body! Control use by three-axis control versus weight-shifting takes a little adjustment.
All the meteorological insights of hang-gliding are useful - but we usually do not work thermals as close to the ground as in hang-gliding. The speeds and altitude safety margins are a little higher. Landing at higher speeds also means using larger landing areas.
All hang-glider pilots find the gliding performance of even the most humble training glider and enormous advantage. The cross-country speeds and glide angles mean you can travel much further before regaining altitude in lift. You can also fly and land very safely in much more boisterous and gusty conditions, due to the higher wing loadings.
Most glider flights result in a landing at the same place you launched from. For many hill-soaring hang-glider pilots, this is sheer luxury! Long climbs and retrieves are less frequent when flying gliders and sailplanes!
Already a Balloonist?
We always land at or near our take-off location. Controllability when landing is improved, and landing on wheels improves the ground roll! Gliders handle more windy conditions in safety. The wind noise of air past the canopy will take some getting used to. Burner roar is non-existent!
These tongue-in-cheek observations aside, the finesse and atmospheric awareness, meteorlogical knowledge and airmanship skills of balloonists will be a tremendous advantage in gliding and soaring.
Unquote
You have already got good reliable advice on the few flights and emergency procedures issues you would cover in conversions. Once solo, off checks, then you should do your A, B and C certificates, which is equivelant to GFPT and PPL. Once you have your C you would be cleared for "family-friend" passenger operations, and previous PPL experience would certainly be relevant in accelerating that progress - in particular the passenger management and distraction experience.
The Manual of Standrad oprocedures says:
C Certificate - Requirements
•A total of 20 solo or mutual flights, including two solo soaring flights of at
least one hour's duration each.
•Trained and checked in ability to carry out a safe outlanding.
•Received a passenger awareness briefing using the "Air Experience" section in
Part 2 of the Instructor's Handbook (pages 8 to 12) as a reference.
•Oral examination on basic theory, navigation, meteorology, airways
procedures, outlanding hazards, post-outlanding actions and SAR
requirements.
•Satisfactory demonstration of spin entry and recovery.
Notes on requirements
1. This means an overall total of 20 solo/mutual flights.
2. Only time in command of mutual flights may count towards a "C" Certificate.
3. Power pilots holding a Student or higher licence may count 10 powered
landings as pilot-in-command towards a "C" Certificate, but must meet the
soaring requirements.
Privileges and limitations.
•May fly cross-country at the discretion of the CFI/CIP.
•May carry private passengers (i.e. not for hire or reward and not introductory
flights under GFA temporary membership), under the provisions of a Private
Passenger Rating as described in 16.2.4.
In other words, straightforward for most early solo pilots.
The GFA website has a heap of info at The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc. - Home. Links to Gliding Clubs are at The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc. - Gliding Clubs in Australia
There is also a new site at Soaring Australia also with links to clubs.
Much has been said above on Independent Operators - this is all about people wishing to fly without the operational oversight of a gliding club. The GFA MOSP is under Documents in the Operations link on the GFA website and explains the rationale.
I hope this helps.
BTW I flew gliders from 1970 (Woomera GC - Ka7 VH-GNU) and still love it.
I converted to power flying in 2003 and love it too
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From JASEAVV:
"this is footage is taken from my hang glider at Fairhaven Vic on the great ocean road.
Hang gliding is very cheap! $2000 9 day pilot course (included accommodation), $3000 second hand glider/harness, $350 HGFA fees annually and that's it."
You left out the PRICELESS funeral.
"this is footage is taken from my hang glider at Fairhaven Vic on the great ocean road.
Hang gliding is very cheap! $2000 9 day pilot course (included accommodation), $3000 second hand glider/harness, $350 HGFA fees annually and that's it."
You left out the PRICELESS funeral.
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he he that's pretty funny actually.
There are lots of hang glider prangs and even a few deaths each year..
That's kind of why I stick to the coastal ridges, the runway is a beach and the weather is generally fairly predictable.
There are lots of hang glider prangs and even a few deaths each year..
That's kind of why I stick to the coastal ridges, the runway is a beach and the weather is generally fairly predictable.
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losing sight of the threshold at Warwick
Whoever did that part of the flying (losing sight of the threshold at Warwick), if it in fact happened, was seriously negligent. There is nothing to gain by doing this type of exercise. Alternatively, demonstrating that the aircraft can be flown a long distance in ground effect is a valuable exercise - and fun!! And at Warwick only one end, the Eastern end, can you get below the level of the runway but only by about ten feet in a scrubby paddock. The western end has a slight ridge that is higher than the threshold.
Gliders also don't have 'speed brakes' in the conventional aviation sense. They are always referred to as spoilers or airbrakes (depending on the type fitted to the aircraft). This is deliberate because every attempt to distance 'speed' from a device which 'controls a rate of descent' should be encouraged. Mark1234 comments are spot-on.
Gliders also don't have 'speed brakes' in the conventional aviation sense. They are always referred to as spoilers or airbrakes (depending on the type fitted to the aircraft). This is deliberate because every attempt to distance 'speed' from a device which 'controls a rate of descent' should be encouraged. Mark1234 comments are spot-on.
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Yeah Dave - whatever!
I haven't bothered with gliding for 25 years, so I really don't care what you call the things that poke out front the wing to help'em come down.
If you know Warwick, then you will know the genuine "living treasure" who did my training. I am sure he will be really bothered that you think he was negligent. I had the pleasure of meeting up with him again a few weeks ago, and in the course of the conversation he told me about doing aerobatics at night in a Wirraway! Some might argue that was negligent as well!
My recollection is that there is actually a dip between the western threshold and the rising ground further to the west - but it was 30 years ago!
GG
I haven't bothered with gliding for 25 years, so I really don't care what you call the things that poke out front the wing to help'em come down.
If you know Warwick, then you will know the genuine "living treasure" who did my training. I am sure he will be really bothered that you think he was negligent. I had the pleasure of meeting up with him again a few weeks ago, and in the course of the conversation he told me about doing aerobatics at night in a Wirraway! Some might argue that was negligent as well!
My recollection is that there is actually a dip between the western threshold and the rising ground further to the west - but it was 30 years ago!
GG
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Gliding to Powered
My response probably requires a separate thread but thought I'd pose it here. What is the opinion of pilots who fly both gliders and powered AC about the benefit of receiving some flight training in a glider before commencing flight training on a powered AC. Would glider training provide invaluable experience in judgment of glide angle (esp in a dead stick approach), use of the rudder and spin training / awareness?
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It'll make you a more confident handling pilot in my opinion (which is based on being about 100/100 in gliders/power, and having flown with a few 100hr ppl types). Spamcans glide like homesick bricks in comparison, so I don't think it's that useful in the emergency scenario.
It's very common in powered flight to never use much more than 30deg of bank, and become very straight and level oriented, and consequently uncomfortable with anything that isn't 'by the numbers'. Glider pilots are more used to cranking around at silly bank angles and working nearer the edge of the envelope especially at the low speed end. Oh and occasionally having a real live field landing.
That said, if the aim is purely powered flying, I don't think it's worth the investment in time; you'd need to put in some serious gliding, not just a few short trips to get the benefit. Doing an aeros endorsement will give you similar, and perhaps more relevant experience.
It's very common in powered flight to never use much more than 30deg of bank, and become very straight and level oriented, and consequently uncomfortable with anything that isn't 'by the numbers'. Glider pilots are more used to cranking around at silly bank angles and working nearer the edge of the envelope especially at the low speed end. Oh and occasionally having a real live field landing.
That said, if the aim is purely powered flying, I don't think it's worth the investment in time; you'd need to put in some serious gliding, not just a few short trips to get the benefit. Doing an aeros endorsement will give you similar, and perhaps more relevant experience.
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Thank you Mark1234. Agree on the Aeros route. I'm currently training to fly on a RAA Foxbat and standard procedure is to cut the power to idle, set up an attitude for 55kt (best glide speed in this AC) and dead stick in from approx 1nm (before turn to base). The instructor has demonstrated some impressive banking S turns well short of the threshold if I was too high and needed to lose altitude. I wouldn't dream of trying this in a Cessna / Piper regardles of my skill level. Seems gliding training gives you an edge in this respect too.
