VAus - New "EBA"
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VAus - New "EBA"
My mates Dunnunda tell me that there is much rumbling in the ranks. Looks like the HR lady has put her stamp on the a newly proposed work agreement. Same conditions for pilots and cabin crew / 9 days off / available 24/7 even on leave, etc. Won't complain where I am for a while and pleased I only registered an interest. Good luck to you guys who took the leap.
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Tell me what pilot in their right mind would agree to something where 20 y/o something FAs have a say in the conditions, lifestyle etc of the tech crew. This is a new low from the V management. Please read the latest from the feds if your with them or not. Very Interesting read. If anyone knows how to post it please do.....
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For how long do you have to protect grown men and women from themselves?
Every pilot that signed on with V Australia knew at interview they were signing individual contracts.
Less than a year ago the Federal govt lost an election on WorkChoices, aka individual contracts called AWAs.
Unfair AWA stories were on every current affairs program. The loss of bargaining power, lesser terms and conditions, requirement to go through lengthy civil court proceedings....
The AFAP put out a warning to members about V Aust individual contracts.
Pprune was crawling with posts about the problems with individual contracts during 2006-2007.
There's even a bunch of NJS 717 guys who were pushing to go on strike over individual contracts vs. collective agreements. They won their fight.... and then went and signed up for V Aust on individual contracts
Some guys have to learn the hard way.
Every pilot that signed on with V Australia knew at interview they were signing individual contracts.
Less than a year ago the Federal govt lost an election on WorkChoices, aka individual contracts called AWAs.
Unfair AWA stories were on every current affairs program. The loss of bargaining power, lesser terms and conditions, requirement to go through lengthy civil court proceedings....
The AFAP put out a warning to members about V Aust individual contracts.
Pprune was crawling with posts about the problems with individual contracts during 2006-2007.
There's even a bunch of NJS 717 guys who were pushing to go on strike over individual contracts vs. collective agreements. They won their fight.... and then went and signed up for V Aust on individual contracts
Some guys have to learn the hard way.
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Stupid woman would probably lump doctors and nurses in the same 'agreement' too since they both work in the same environment. What difference should it make that a nurse has different skill sets, length of education, re-currency training, licensing, hours spent studying, regulatory requirements, duty of care and insurance bills as a doctor? They work in a hospital too, therefore they must be the same.
Wonder if insurance companies treat pilots and cabin crew the same?
Check out the properties of the Agreement doc if you received it via soft copy. A fine example of plagiarism. More proof of her brilliance and the enormous amount of effort that went into it. She probably found it via Google, deleted the bits that were too generous and presented it to the boss who no doubt praised her stunning legal mind.
Way to go VA
Wonder if insurance companies treat pilots and cabin crew the same?
Check out the properties of the Agreement doc if you received it via soft copy. A fine example of plagiarism. More proof of her brilliance and the enormous amount of effort that went into it. She probably found it via Google, deleted the bits that were too generous and presented it to the boss who no doubt praised her stunning legal mind.
Way to go VA
FARRARI I think this is the NEW bit!
TO: ALL VA AND VB PILOTS
RE: VA PILOTS TO LOSE CONTROL OVER OWN DESTINY UNDER
V-AUSTRALIA COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT
DATE: 26 SEPTEMBER 2008
Pilots to be Swamped by Majority
Numbers
V Australia (VA) pilots have been
invited/rostered to attend a so-called “Safety
Net” meeting with VA management
representatives over the course of the next
week. The Federation has learnt that the
company intends to push a new single,
collective agreement that it intends to apply
to both flight crew and cabin crew.
Due to the higher numbers of cabin crew
compared to flight crew, in a combined vote
of the two groups, cabin crew could impose
a single agreement on pilots, no matter how
offensive it is to the pilot body.
VA management has revealed already itself
as anti-union. It has adopted an aggressive
approach to its workforce, including pilots,
and through this approach hopes to isolate
the VA workforce’s unions (including the
Federation) from representing their
members. It is no coincidence that the
agreement that the company is proposing is
“non-union”.
An Attack On Your Wages And Rights
The Federation believes that the company,
through this single non-union collective
agreement, intends to further reduce pilot’s
wages and conditions (in real terms), your
workplace rights and life style benefits.
The Federation is very familiar with these
types of strategies. VA is not the only
aggressive, ideologically driven, anti-union
company. We saw plenty of them during the
peak of the Workchoices legislation which,
for the most part, we still operate under,
leaving companies like VA at large to attack
wages, conditions and job security.
This Is What You Could Be On The Line
Based on previous experiences within the
industry, VA pilots could expect to be
subject to the following provisions,
inclusions and omissions in the
proposal:
�� A 5 Year Agreement with NO
guaranteed wage increases
�� No Loss of Licence Cover
�� Ability for the company to unilaterally
vary a pilots home base
�� No roster stability or certainty of days
off
�� A requirement to be contactable 24/7
�� Flight and Duty Limitations covered
by company policy, not part of your
Agreement
�� No Death Benefit Insurance/cover
�� Company discretion to pay
allowances, such as meal allowances
�� No certainty surrounding payment of
salary intervals
�� Watered down powers of the AIRC to
resolve disputes with unfettered
powers of the company to terminate
employment, impose heavy penalties
and costs on pilots in the event of
certain grievances.
These could be to name just a few.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots 6/132 Albert Rd South Melbourne VIC 3205
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] W: www.afap.org.au
Watch For the Snow Job
No doubt the company will try to sell a
positive message and hope to convince you
how well off you will be under their proposed
agreement. It may even say that the
workforce and company have a common
interest in moving forward under the
company’s strategy.
However, it is critical that each pilot consider
not so much what is in the agreement, but
rather what is not. And; as can be seen
above that list could be extremely significant.
If pilots attend the loosely named ‘safety
net meetings’, you are encouraged to
question what is being put to you.
• How are pilot’s rights protected if they
can be out voted by cabin crew?
• Why won’t the company agree to
negotiate with your union?
• What conditions that most Australian
pilots enjoy won’t apply to VA pilots?
• Am I guaranteed pay increases?
• Will I effectively be at the company’s
beckon call 24 hours a day, 365 days a
year?
Keep In Touch with the Federation
Pilots are encouraged to take notes, keep
copies of any material provided at the
meeting and to contact the Federation
following the meetings.
Whilst the Federation supports the concept
of a ‘collective’ agreement, we are
vehemently opposed to other groups, such
as cabin crew determining the employment
conditions and rights of pilots for potentially
the next five years. No doubt cabin crew
would share the view if the situation was
reversed and the pilots ‘had the numbers’.
This could be a protracted campaign. No
pilot is obliged to agree anything put to them
by the company. The Federation is
developing responses and strategies to
assist our VA members.
However, critical to any strategy is
communication, to inform and to be
informed. We must know who you are and
where you are. We are updating our data
base.
If you are a VA pilot and have not updated your details with the Federation please do so
immediately – either by email [email protected] or phone membership on 03 9928 57 37.
If you are not already an AFAP member you can down load a membership form from the
AFAP website, www.afap.org.au or phone the Federation on 03 9928 57 37.
MORE THAN EVER VB AND VA PILOTS NEED TO BE UNITED AND STICK TOGETHER.
TO: ALL VA AND VB PILOTS
RE: VA PILOTS TO LOSE CONTROL OVER OWN DESTINY UNDER
V-AUSTRALIA COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT
DATE: 26 SEPTEMBER 2008
Pilots to be Swamped by Majority
Numbers
V Australia (VA) pilots have been
invited/rostered to attend a so-called “Safety
Net” meeting with VA management
representatives over the course of the next
week. The Federation has learnt that the
company intends to push a new single,
collective agreement that it intends to apply
to both flight crew and cabin crew.
Due to the higher numbers of cabin crew
compared to flight crew, in a combined vote
of the two groups, cabin crew could impose
a single agreement on pilots, no matter how
offensive it is to the pilot body.
VA management has revealed already itself
as anti-union. It has adopted an aggressive
approach to its workforce, including pilots,
and through this approach hopes to isolate
the VA workforce’s unions (including the
Federation) from representing their
members. It is no coincidence that the
agreement that the company is proposing is
“non-union”.
An Attack On Your Wages And Rights
The Federation believes that the company,
through this single non-union collective
agreement, intends to further reduce pilot’s
wages and conditions (in real terms), your
workplace rights and life style benefits.
The Federation is very familiar with these
types of strategies. VA is not the only
aggressive, ideologically driven, anti-union
company. We saw plenty of them during the
peak of the Workchoices legislation which,
for the most part, we still operate under,
leaving companies like VA at large to attack
wages, conditions and job security.
This Is What You Could Be On The Line
Based on previous experiences within the
industry, VA pilots could expect to be
subject to the following provisions,
inclusions and omissions in the
proposal:
�� A 5 Year Agreement with NO
guaranteed wage increases
�� No Loss of Licence Cover
�� Ability for the company to unilaterally
vary a pilots home base
�� No roster stability or certainty of days
off
�� A requirement to be contactable 24/7
�� Flight and Duty Limitations covered
by company policy, not part of your
Agreement
�� No Death Benefit Insurance/cover
�� Company discretion to pay
allowances, such as meal allowances
�� No certainty surrounding payment of
salary intervals
�� Watered down powers of the AIRC to
resolve disputes with unfettered
powers of the company to terminate
employment, impose heavy penalties
and costs on pilots in the event of
certain grievances.
These could be to name just a few.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots 6/132 Albert Rd South Melbourne VIC 3205
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] W: www.afap.org.au
Watch For the Snow Job
No doubt the company will try to sell a
positive message and hope to convince you
how well off you will be under their proposed
agreement. It may even say that the
workforce and company have a common
interest in moving forward under the
company’s strategy.
However, it is critical that each pilot consider
not so much what is in the agreement, but
rather what is not. And; as can be seen
above that list could be extremely significant.
If pilots attend the loosely named ‘safety
net meetings’, you are encouraged to
question what is being put to you.
• How are pilot’s rights protected if they
can be out voted by cabin crew?
• Why won’t the company agree to
negotiate with your union?
• What conditions that most Australian
pilots enjoy won’t apply to VA pilots?
• Am I guaranteed pay increases?
• Will I effectively be at the company’s
beckon call 24 hours a day, 365 days a
year?
Keep In Touch with the Federation
Pilots are encouraged to take notes, keep
copies of any material provided at the
meeting and to contact the Federation
following the meetings.
Whilst the Federation supports the concept
of a ‘collective’ agreement, we are
vehemently opposed to other groups, such
as cabin crew determining the employment
conditions and rights of pilots for potentially
the next five years. No doubt cabin crew
would share the view if the situation was
reversed and the pilots ‘had the numbers’.
This could be a protracted campaign. No
pilot is obliged to agree anything put to them
by the company. The Federation is
developing responses and strategies to
assist our VA members.
However, critical to any strategy is
communication, to inform and to be
informed. We must know who you are and
where you are. We are updating our data
base.
If you are a VA pilot and have not updated your details with the Federation please do so
immediately – either by email [email protected] or phone membership on 03 9928 57 37.
If you are not already an AFAP member you can down load a membership form from the
AFAP website, www.afap.org.au or phone the Federation on 03 9928 57 37.
MORE THAN EVER VB AND VA PILOTS NEED TO BE UNITED AND STICK TOGETHER.
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The VA HR woman got up in front of a group of new hire management people two months ago and, as part of her horse and pony show introduction, rolled her eyes and said "Pilots....welll what can I say about pilots, they live in a world of their own..." The implication was that not one of respect or decency. There were three other more covert remarks made about pilots as well in the same chest thumping speech where she also pointed out how much she loved working with people etc. Prior to Virgin Group she was a Telstra HR person. What does that tell you. I don't judge any pilot that goes to work at VA as it is at the end of the day an individual choice. However I cringe to think what sacrifices to your career and family and sanity you are really embarking on. I'm not sure there are any redeeming aspects to the job.
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Could it be that the Boeing strike and undefined delivery date of the first aircraft, has prompted the new VA agreement?
Shame, they have potentially destroyed what could have been a very happy work environment.
44. STAND DOWN
44.1 We have the right to stand you down with or without pay for any cause for which we cannot reasonably be held responsible.
44.1 We have the right to stand you down with or without pay for any cause for which we cannot reasonably be held responsible.
Last edited by Kanga1; 27th Sep 2008 at 14:53.
Are you reading this Sand dune Sam?
Careful you don't fly off the handle at the posters here, lest you might be banned along with the other thread.
That is unless you have been already. Mods?
Careful you don't fly off the handle at the posters here, lest you might be banned along with the other thread.
That is unless you have been already. Mods?
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 27th Sep 2008 at 21:55.
Sprucegoose
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Couldn't really get any worse.....
I know a number of very good people who joined VA, I hope for their sakes that things don't get any worse.
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Most guys here are informative KRUSTY, and they know what they are talking about. They are seeking information and or letting people know what the deal is. Unlike you they have been flying heavy metal for a while and they have an experienced view point on the industry and where VA may or may not end up. My point again, without getting personal is that we need balanced info here, all the facts, not persistent ramblings about whats right and wrong.
Thanks for your PM, really informative.
Thanks for your PM, really informative.
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I dont think many people have any sympathy for anyone who has taken a position with V. I know the same old arguments will appear now:
1. I need the Job,
2. I have a family,
3. My wife was going to leave me if I did not accept the job,
4. I have tried every other airline and had no luck,
5. Etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, dont think for a minute that conditions at this place will improve, they will get worse and worse. You have all been warned before about the conditons and the type of people you are dealing with and there are many pilots out there that are watching this space very closely. Good luck with your employment, I hope that its everything you wanted and more. But may I ask that you please do not come complaining to ANYONE about the pay and conditons in the future as the response you may receive may not be the one you want!
1. I need the Job,
2. I have a family,
3. My wife was going to leave me if I did not accept the job,
4. I have tried every other airline and had no luck,
5. Etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, dont think for a minute that conditions at this place will improve, they will get worse and worse. You have all been warned before about the conditons and the type of people you are dealing with and there are many pilots out there that are watching this space very closely. Good luck with your employment, I hope that its everything you wanted and more. But may I ask that you please do not come complaining to ANYONE about the pay and conditons in the future as the response you may receive may not be the one you want!
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People would just disappear after the first 500 hours, there are various commuting contracts offering better money… Bond can’t hold anybody and in fact it would not even stand a chance in court. Under those terms and conditions, the company practically recoups the 30k bond within the first six months or earlier, so my guess is that VA is preparing for a high turn over of pilots something similar to Air Asia…
Thread Starter
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Having read what is actually being proposed (thanks ad-astra) one has to ask / wonder what the actual agenda is. It appears as though the VA management have finally woken up to the fact that the pilots might choose to stand together and become "unionised" and that they are desperately trying to preempt this by implementing the proposed work "agreement". Given the s&*^%y conditions one can understand that the management is worried about union involvement.
It is certainly heartening to see that the unions have gotten wind of this effort by VA management and that a concerted effort is being made to enlighten the VA pilots to the risks / consequences of them signing / voting in favour of this agreement.
The current working conditions of VA pilots are devoid of any protection for the pilot group and the proposed agreement only serves to degrade these conditions even further. Only a pilot who is there just for the conversion and who intends to leave ASAP would be happy to agree to these conditions. Any pilot who intends to remain with VA for any period would be selling their soul by agreeing to what is being proposed.
In short the proposal is probably the most iniquitous that I have seen proposed by any airline management for some time.
I don't agree with some of the posts which suggest that the VA pilots should not complain and that they brought this on themselves. These guys need the guidance / support of the pilot fraternity. If many of our circumstances had been different we might be there too.
There but for the grace of ............................................................
It is certainly heartening to see that the unions have gotten wind of this effort by VA management and that a concerted effort is being made to enlighten the VA pilots to the risks / consequences of them signing / voting in favour of this agreement.
The current working conditions of VA pilots are devoid of any protection for the pilot group and the proposed agreement only serves to degrade these conditions even further. Only a pilot who is there just for the conversion and who intends to leave ASAP would be happy to agree to these conditions. Any pilot who intends to remain with VA for any period would be selling their soul by agreeing to what is being proposed.
In short the proposal is probably the most iniquitous that I have seen proposed by any airline management for some time.
I don't agree with some of the posts which suggest that the VA pilots should not complain and that they brought this on themselves. These guys need the guidance / support of the pilot fraternity. If many of our circumstances had been different we might be there too.
There but for the grace of ............................................................
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There is no gun to anyones head to sign this contract with V! This agreement is going to bring airline pilots conditions to an all time low and no one has any control over this except the employee signing the contract. No one signs it, there is no contract. The airline then has to raise salaries and conditions to attract the pilot. Very simple solution to a complex problem. But then again I am an idealist and pilots are generally enthusiats!
I think the tide may be turning D.D.
For years pilots have sacrificed decent wages and conditions for essentially one of two reasons.
The second problem (which VA faces and obviously doesn't understand) is that few would concieve that a position as a flight crew member on a wide bodied international aircraft to be a stepping stone to a better job!
The majority of posters on this forum have identified this second problem as probably the most serious. A few posters have attempted to justify the shortsighted antics of VA to satisfy their own agenda, with little regard for the greater good. The problem for these people, is they are in the minority. If most VA applicants were prepared to "grab their ankles" so to speak, then this minority would not have a problem. As most are not prepared to accept substandard wages and conditions for what could/should be considered the pinnicle of one's career, then those who are appologists for this sort of caper may just be dragged kicking and screaming into a job where the wages and conditions are commensurate with what the market now demands.
If that were to happen, the competition for these positions would certainly increase, mmm..?
For years pilots have sacrificed decent wages and conditions for essentially one of two reasons.
- The sheer love of flying
- As a stepping stone to a better job.
The second problem (which VA faces and obviously doesn't understand) is that few would concieve that a position as a flight crew member on a wide bodied international aircraft to be a stepping stone to a better job!
The majority of posters on this forum have identified this second problem as probably the most serious. A few posters have attempted to justify the shortsighted antics of VA to satisfy their own agenda, with little regard for the greater good. The problem for these people, is they are in the minority. If most VA applicants were prepared to "grab their ankles" so to speak, then this minority would not have a problem. As most are not prepared to accept substandard wages and conditions for what could/should be considered the pinnicle of one's career, then those who are appologists for this sort of caper may just be dragged kicking and screaming into a job where the wages and conditions are commensurate with what the market now demands.
If that were to happen, the competition for these positions would certainly increase, mmm..?