VAus - New "EBA"
Well,
Certainly hit a few raw nerves.
Despite what you think you know about me, you guys are not the only ones that have made sacrifices or had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of airline incompetance and management indifference. That's why I find it bemusing to see "experienced heavy metal" drivers, if indeed that's what you are, lining up for what looks like more of the same.
The fact that I am merely a "turboprop Captain" (sand dune Sam's words) apparently disqualifies me from expressing an opinion. Well, Tough T!tt!es! The majority of those posting here are genuinely concerned for the future of OZ aviation. If you can honestly say with a straight face that what VA are offering is in anyway globally competive, then you must be looking at a different proposal to what I've seen!
Your motives for taking such a position appears clear. And who on Earth could blame you. Nothing I say will change the opinion of VA. So why all the angst? The fact that you are making a decision based on family rather than money is to be commended. Having said that, have any of you actually read the "agreement". You'll be lucky to see them at all!
For what it's worth, I sincerely hope it all works out. But I have one question, do any of you know just how many SFO's VA have signed to date? If I were you, I'd be less worried about what Krusty 34 has to say, and start worrying about whether or not this thing even gets off the ground. I sincerly hope you haven't given notice yet. But I'm sure people such as yourselves would never make a decision without first carefully thinking it through?
Certainly hit a few raw nerves.
Despite what you think you know about me, you guys are not the only ones that have made sacrifices or had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of airline incompetance and management indifference. That's why I find it bemusing to see "experienced heavy metal" drivers, if indeed that's what you are, lining up for what looks like more of the same.
The fact that I am merely a "turboprop Captain" (sand dune Sam's words) apparently disqualifies me from expressing an opinion. Well, Tough T!tt!es! The majority of those posting here are genuinely concerned for the future of OZ aviation. If you can honestly say with a straight face that what VA are offering is in anyway globally competive, then you must be looking at a different proposal to what I've seen!
Your motives for taking such a position appears clear. And who on Earth could blame you. Nothing I say will change the opinion of VA. So why all the angst? The fact that you are making a decision based on family rather than money is to be commended. Having said that, have any of you actually read the "agreement". You'll be lucky to see them at all!
For what it's worth, I sincerely hope it all works out. But I have one question, do any of you know just how many SFO's VA have signed to date? If I were you, I'd be less worried about what Krusty 34 has to say, and start worrying about whether or not this thing even gets off the ground. I sincerly hope you haven't given notice yet. But I'm sure people such as yourselves would never make a decision without first carefully thinking it through?
I am personally very interested as to how many SFOs have actually signed up and where they are from, as it appears sweet FA are coming from VB. Some from Jetconnect and others maybe from Asia / Japan, Air Nugini, Air PAC ?
Lets face it - relative to VB T & Cs it`s crap so possibly only attractive to those wanting to get back to the great southern sandpit.
Lets face it - relative to VB T & Cs it`s crap so possibly only attractive to those wanting to get back to the great southern sandpit.
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And pettcoatpilot if you sign the proposed agreement your contract will not be worth the paper it is written on and your working conditions will be dictated by the flight attendants....GREAT.
Remember the wise warnings from the posters on PPrune when you are forced to fly on your off days (sorry love can't be at the anniversay dinner / school graduation VA needs me to work). 38 hours a week (they really had pilots in mind when they came with this figure) x 46 (after 42 days leave) is 1748 hours of work per annum that you will be signing up for. As your flying hours are limited are they going to have you working in the office to make up the rest.
They reserve the right to provide meals instead of paying allowances????
There is no bonus / no overtime despite the FO A$110 - 130 and Captain A$180 - A$200 salaries.
VB and Jetstar pilots stood together and with their representative unions fought hard for what they have. Have a look at their agreements and see what you are missing.
Don't sacrifice your long term prosperity for short term goals
Remember the wise warnings from the posters on PPrune when you are forced to fly on your off days (sorry love can't be at the anniversay dinner / school graduation VA needs me to work). 38 hours a week (they really had pilots in mind when they came with this figure) x 46 (after 42 days leave) is 1748 hours of work per annum that you will be signing up for. As your flying hours are limited are they going to have you working in the office to make up the rest.
They reserve the right to provide meals instead of paying allowances????
There is no bonus / no overtime despite the FO A$110 - 130 and Captain A$180 - A$200 salaries.
VB and Jetstar pilots stood together and with their representative unions fought hard for what they have. Have a look at their agreements and see what you are missing.
Don't sacrifice your long term prosperity for short term goals
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OK so we've got some fully paid up members of the hard luck club making a choice they feel they have to make. Cornered and desperate. VA must be thrilled, it rarely gets better from an employers perspective.
At least now I can understand why there have been those willing to accept such a horrendous deal. It really had me confused up until the last few posts.
... but it strikes me as a poor foundation on which to build some change in your life circumstances. Not too many people respect desperation. Some business folk dream of such exploitation.
Kingswood.
At least now I can understand why there have been those willing to accept such a horrendous deal. It really had me confused up until the last few posts.
... but it strikes me as a poor foundation on which to build some change in your life circumstances. Not too many people respect desperation. Some business folk dream of such exploitation.
Kingswood.
I'm curious Redflags. Did VH-YES and Pettycoat Pilot PM you with their reasons for deleting their posts. Did they just take their bat and ball and go home, or were there other reasons? Or are you just guessing?
Whether people agree or not, everyone has the right to their opinion.
Whether people agree or not, everyone has the right to their opinion.
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There was a time when a bunch of people left Ansett etc, and those that stayed were considered 
who were driving down wages & conditions, thereby ruining the industry.
Then those departed pilots started another airline in Aus and were called for driving down wages & conditions thereby ruining the industry. Then that airline became accepted as the norm so now people are frowned apon for calling the aformentioned .
Now a new airline has been formed and those joining are considered to be who are driving down wages and conditions.
One wonders if we wait long enough will the in this new airline become the new norm, therefore no longer being considered a . If this is true the question beckons, should one get in early become a and then in a few years be seen as the norm but with some seniority.
Or conversely should one stand on the sideline bemoning all the and never joining them until your own wages & conditions are so poor in comparison that you give in and join the but not until they are considered the norm by which time you could have had better wages & seniority if only you'd joined when they were considered and not the norm. 
who were driving down wages & conditions, thereby ruining the industry.Then those departed pilots started another airline in Aus and were called
for driving down wages & conditions thereby ruining the industry. Then that airline became accepted as the norm so now people are frowned apon for calling the aformentioned . Now a new airline has been formed and those joining are considered to be
who are driving down wages and conditions. One wonders if we wait long enough will the
in this new airline become the new norm, therefore no longer being considered a . If this is true the question beckons, should one get in early become a and then in a few years be seen as the norm but with some seniority.Or conversely should one stand on the sideline bemoning all the
and never joining them until your own wages & conditions are so poor in comparison that you give in and join the but not until they are considered the norm by which time you could have had better wages & seniority if only you'd joined when they were considered and not the norm.
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Why wouldn't managment offer a sh1thouse deal to test the water? Too bad so many donkeys have jumped at the first offer!
I'd love to see some of you blokes shopping in China.
"Excuse me.... how much is this watch?"
"Ahh dis berry good watch.. you pay 100 dollar."
"Oh great. Can I have 2 watches for 200 dollars."
"Ahh yes Mr. Donkeyman"
bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzstoogesbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I'd love to see some of you blokes shopping in China.
"Excuse me.... how much is this watch?"
"Ahh dis berry good watch.. you pay 100 dollar."
"Oh great. Can I have 2 watches for 200 dollars."
"Ahh yes Mr. Donkeyman"
bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzstoogesbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Thanks for the open reply 'YES. As I said, was curious as to why you guys pulled the posts after such spirited replys.
I have read again my posts and I see nothing that be-littles you or your family! After reading Kingswood's post, he certainly had a go, again nothing be-littleing, and I think fairly tame compared with the reply you dished up. Hense my question, why the angst?
The debate on these forums can get robust, and as you, Sam and PCP are new to the forum, you should try and see through some of the chest thumping and actually read the posts.
Frankly I think you guys are totally missing the point. It's not about who's D!ck is the bigger, (well maybe sometimes it is). Nothing Krusty, Kingswood, YES', Redflags, or even Sand dune Sam says will change the way things are. What will make the difference one way or the other is whether or not it will be possible for VA to crew their aircraft whilst offering such substandard conditions. And that my friends is what you should be worrying about.
I sincerely hope it works out for you. No really! I do. If you guys have chosen to come on board, then whatever the consequences good or bad, you can't say that people didn't give you an opinion on it.
Goodnight, and goodluck.
P.S. Looks like YES' has now pulled his posts. Probably just as well guys. As they say. If you can't take the heat....
I have read again my posts and I see nothing that be-littles you or your family! After reading Kingswood's post, he certainly had a go, again nothing be-littleing, and I think fairly tame compared with the reply you dished up. Hense my question, why the angst?
The debate on these forums can get robust, and as you, Sam and PCP are new to the forum, you should try and see through some of the chest thumping and actually read the posts.
Frankly I think you guys are totally missing the point. It's not about who's D!ck is the bigger, (well maybe sometimes it is). Nothing Krusty, Kingswood, YES', Redflags, or even Sand dune Sam says will change the way things are. What will make the difference one way or the other is whether or not it will be possible for VA to crew their aircraft whilst offering such substandard conditions. And that my friends is what you should be worrying about.
I sincerely hope it works out for you. No really! I do. If you guys have chosen to come on board, then whatever the consequences good or bad, you can't say that people didn't give you an opinion on it.
Goodnight, and goodluck.
P.S. Looks like YES' has now pulled his posts. Probably just as well guys. As they say. If you can't take the heat....
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VH-YES et al:
Steeerewwth lads please take a deep breath! Were discussing (what is in the grand scheme of life) a fairly insignificant issue in an anonymous online forum. Had I known you were so sensitive I would not have been so blunt.
Not for a moment was it my intention to belittle you, and I certainly derive no pleasure from observing that you are more than a little upset by my post. Neither do I wish to see you withdraw from the conversation. This is a worthwhile discourse.
To be perfectly honest my interest in this thread stems from my own understanding of what this agreement will mean to you all on a day to day basis: No paid call ins, no real time free of duty, min days off per month, uncertainty in the roster etc all documented above. I simply cannot imagine how your life is going to be sustainable given what I have learned of the VA agreement. I have been there. I know exactly what this feels like, and its going to grind you down.
I assure you I am not trying to rub you the wrong way, or for that matter change your mind. Up until now I was just curious to understand what draws you chaps in to this gig.
I made an observation as to what might be motivating you and some of your colleagues to accept this position. It seemed to me that some of you are doing it tough; tough enough to want out of where you are at any cost. Fair enough. I get it. And it gives me no pleasure to learn this.
But surely the fact that my blunt observation has pissed you off at all should be cause enough for you to ask why? Why should you care what some anonymous tosser on a website has to say about your job choice?
I ask most sincerely: Is there anything about this deal that is bugging you?
Kingswood
Steeerewwth lads please take a deep breath! Were discussing (what is in the grand scheme of life) a fairly insignificant issue in an anonymous online forum. Had I known you were so sensitive I would not have been so blunt.
Not for a moment was it my intention to belittle you, and I certainly derive no pleasure from observing that you are more than a little upset by my post. Neither do I wish to see you withdraw from the conversation. This is a worthwhile discourse.
To be perfectly honest my interest in this thread stems from my own understanding of what this agreement will mean to you all on a day to day basis: No paid call ins, no real time free of duty, min days off per month, uncertainty in the roster etc all documented above. I simply cannot imagine how your life is going to be sustainable given what I have learned of the VA agreement. I have been there. I know exactly what this feels like, and its going to grind you down.
I assure you I am not trying to rub you the wrong way, or for that matter change your mind. Up until now I was just curious to understand what draws you chaps in to this gig.
I made an observation as to what might be motivating you and some of your colleagues to accept this position. It seemed to me that some of you are doing it tough; tough enough to want out of where you are at any cost. Fair enough. I get it. And it gives me no pleasure to learn this.
But surely the fact that my blunt observation has pissed you off at all should be cause enough for you to ask why? Why should you care what some anonymous tosser on a website has to say about your job choice?
I ask most sincerely: Is there anything about this deal that is bugging you?
Kingswood
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To every person who feels the need to belittle their colleagues or high note their moral stand point , please note that life is one giant revolving door and one that everybody must pass through. We as a professional fraternity are at it again tearing down bridges and building walls between ourselves. We should be helping our fellow colleagues providing assistance and moral support because that is what mateship is all about, if anyone thinks by continually spouting their superior intellect and knowledge of the industry and what they think might happen in the future is of any help to anyone except their ego ,then said person is greatly mistaken. Sometimes a position of humility is the strongest stand to take, we have all made mistakes and all of us will most certainly make more before we die, as was mentioned in previous threads , "there but for the grace of god go I". I realise that we all have strong feelings about the degradation of our industry standards and im sure the guys at V aus do too.The reasons behind what motivated each person to take on such a risk is theirs alone.So lets not argue about who thinks they are right , but argue about what measures we need to take to reply to our industry concerns.One great person was once qouted " Don't take life too seriously because no one gets out alive". Just my humble opinion anyway.
Last edited by flyby; 29th Sep 2008 at 23:29.
To Flyby
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KRUSTY...in the politest possible way, you are like a little Jack Russell terrier yapping away at the fence. And, I apologise if it came across as me belittling you regarding your current position. I know many good and experienced people who have applied for VA, guys from Vietnam, CX, EK, and as mentioned before, they have varied reasons for either accepting a position or knocking one back. The guys that may have taken a gig at VA couldn't care less about what you guys rant about on pprune as they are doing it for their own reasons, some just because they want to come home.
I appreciate that you have an opinion and good on you, I agree with some of your sentiments, however if you are happy with your lot and not interested in going to VA, why are you being so persistently negative about it? Why does it concern you? You arent qualified for a command or SFO gig and I'm sure you wouldnt like a CFO slot so let it go. I understand that the T&C's cause you concern, but your not going for the job.
On that note, I agree that it aint a good deal at VA, however I did look at it and was able to get all the facts to make a balanced judgement.
Now, how about a little generosity of spirit, I hope that for the good guys that are going to VA that it works out for you
I appreciate that you have an opinion and good on you, I agree with some of your sentiments, however if you are happy with your lot and not interested in going to VA, why are you being so persistently negative about it? Why does it concern you? You arent qualified for a command or SFO gig and I'm sure you wouldnt like a CFO slot so let it go. I understand that the T&C's cause you concern, but your not going for the job.
On that note, I agree that it aint a good deal at VA, however I did look at it and was able to get all the facts to make a balanced judgement.
Now, how about a little generosity of spirit, I hope that for the good guys that are going to VA that it works out for you
Thanks YES'.
So there is now an agreement between VA and DJ for employment on to the 737 and then repatriation back to the 777 of CSO's?
That's good news indeed.
Krusty.
So there is now an agreement between VA and DJ for employment on to the 737 and then repatriation back to the 777 of CSO's?
That's good news indeed.
Krusty.