Novice Pilots allowed to buy time....
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Novice Pilots allowed to buy time....
From news.com.au
Please tell me that AFAP has made a submission to the Senate Inquiry! I've emailed AIPA about it.
Novice pilots 'allowed to buy time'
By Simon Jenkins
July 02, 2008 04:59pm
Article from: AAP
THE aircraft operator involved in the Lockhart River crash allowed inexperienced pilots to fly passenger flights unpaid to clock up flying time, a Senate inquiry has heard.
Fiona Norris, the wife of a pilot killed while a passenger in the 2005 crash, said Transair pilots were effectively buying flying time while carrying passengers.
Ms Norris said the pilots purchased their time to increase their hours of flight experience.
"I know many pilots who had bought time with Transair," she said.
"Whilst undergoing training, but actually buying time in the capacity that they're not getting paid an income at all, they're actually buying their time," Ms Norris said.
She said the practice was aimed at getting the pilots flying hours up to a required level.
"Under a situation where there isn't really a proper check and training capacity, where it is not really in the interest of the airline to really train these pilots, it's simply a money-making scheme for them," she said.
Ms Norris said pilots with a low number of flying hours should be prevented from flying under certain conditions.
"There should be some regulation where a low-time pilot is not allowed to fly under RPT (regular passenger transport) conditions, especially when the operator was known to take money where pilots were actually able to buy their time on that type of aeroplane."
Her husband, Paul Raymond Morris, was one of the 15 killed people in the Lockhart River crash in Queensland. A coroner found the pilot flew too fast and attempted an unauthorised landing, and the airline's poor safety management practices contributed to the crash.
"I come here with the capacity of a very human element as to how the system failed my husband and the other passengers on board that flight that day," Ms Norris said.
"Obviously, I can only talk from experience as in from that particular flight, is that the co-pilot had very low time, he had under 500 hours.
"My husband, who was a pilot, had around 1500 hours and he was not in the position of flying a metro, a high-performance aeroplane."
By Simon Jenkins
July 02, 2008 04:59pm
Article from: AAP
THE aircraft operator involved in the Lockhart River crash allowed inexperienced pilots to fly passenger flights unpaid to clock up flying time, a Senate inquiry has heard.
Fiona Norris, the wife of a pilot killed while a passenger in the 2005 crash, said Transair pilots were effectively buying flying time while carrying passengers.
Ms Norris said the pilots purchased their time to increase their hours of flight experience.
"I know many pilots who had bought time with Transair," she said.
"Whilst undergoing training, but actually buying time in the capacity that they're not getting paid an income at all, they're actually buying their time," Ms Norris said.
She said the practice was aimed at getting the pilots flying hours up to a required level.
"Under a situation where there isn't really a proper check and training capacity, where it is not really in the interest of the airline to really train these pilots, it's simply a money-making scheme for them," she said.
Ms Norris said pilots with a low number of flying hours should be prevented from flying under certain conditions.
"There should be some regulation where a low-time pilot is not allowed to fly under RPT (regular passenger transport) conditions, especially when the operator was known to take money where pilots were actually able to buy their time on that type of aeroplane."
Her husband, Paul Raymond Morris, was one of the 15 killed people in the Lockhart River crash in Queensland. A coroner found the pilot flew too fast and attempted an unauthorised landing, and the airline's poor safety management practices contributed to the crash.
"I come here with the capacity of a very human element as to how the system failed my husband and the other passengers on board that flight that day," Ms Norris said.
"Obviously, I can only talk from experience as in from that particular flight, is that the co-pilot had very low time, he had under 500 hours.
"My husband, who was a pilot, had around 1500 hours and he was not in the position of flying a metro, a high-performance aeroplane."
"There should be some regulation where a low-time pilot is not allowed to fly under RPT (regular passenger transport) conditions, especially when the operator was known to take money where pilots were actually able to buy their time on that type of aeroplane."
There is a regulation... It's called a pilot licence. Another is called insurance. Again, the media is taking information from someone who knows a bit of terminology, and assumes that they know all.
Was the copilot at Lockhart River paying to be there? I don't see how someone paying for the seat is more dangerous than someone with the same experience levels who is being paid to be there. Having said that, there does need to be a standard that is met, and that should be taught and upheld by check and training, for all line pilots.
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong to do this. But what makes RPT so different to charter? Especially when the aircraft is the same, the only difference is the category of operations.
"Whilst undergoing training, but actually buying time in the capacity that they're not getting paid an income at all, they're actually buying their time," Ms Norris said.
She said the practice was aimed at getting the pilots flying hours up to a required level.
She said the practice was aimed at getting the pilots flying hours up to a required level.
Once again, not passing judgement either way. Although reading back through what I wrote I know it sounds like it. Something about these kinds of "news" *cough* reports just make me want to be contrary I guess
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Pay-For-Training should be outlawed for specific aircraft type ratings and endorsements. Mummy and Daddy day-care schemes need to be given the boot, so that properly competitive candidates can be allowed to apply and succeed without selling out the entire industry.
Airlines and operators would be forced to assign competitive candidates to their payroll and pay them properly so they don't run off OS.
CASA and Parliament need to get this written into regulation-period!
Airlines and operators would be forced to assign competitive candidates to their payroll and pay them properly so they don't run off OS.
CASA and Parliament need to get this written into regulation-period!
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Guys, this is a worldwide problem. In the UK easyJet just started a program through one of its captains where a student buys a typerating and receives 150 hours of line training on passenger flights with easyJet, only requirements are a frozen ATPL, 200 hours and CASH.
CASA and Parliament need to get this written into regulation-period!
In actual fact CASA's position on this and many other similar things are enshrined in current legislation and regulation and are, as such, rather inflexible. Some might actually argue that CASA have too much to do with the day to day running of aviation business... some feel it needs to go deeper. Who knows who is right?
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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ABC news on the radio today reported that CASA are going to investigate how widespread are the instances of pilots "paying" to fly passenger carrying aircraft in order to build hours. Sh1t, they would only have to do a search on these pages to get a pretty good idea.
It will never happen. Why? For the same reason CASA cannot and will not enforce the provisions of any Award or EBA. This is because the moment they do, there will be many in the industry bellowing at the top of their lungs about how a regulator is their to regulate, not interfere and/or run their business for them.
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With the poor T&C's that are obvious throught out these pages one could almost say that ALL pilots are 'paying' for their flying (by way of sub std wages) in almost all levels of aviation if not all! After asking around & reading thru here the wages for pilots enroute to the top is dreadful.
Has it always been this way or am I forming an opinion that's based on what most would like to get paid?
FG
Has it always been this way or am I forming an opinion that's based on what most would like to get paid?
FG
The CAOs stipulate that a Chief Pilot for a company with more than one aircraft needs to be employed full time. Clearly there is some scope for them to enforce employment arrangements.
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I have always felt that they could easily stop pay for training scams if they wanted to. In the end, they only have to show accidents in North America in the '90s to see this will get people hurt. Hibbing Minnesota in a Junkstream was squarely blamed on this.
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Its always going to happen while people will pay for the ICUS. Agree with it or not it will happen. Lets face it companies not only airlines (read any Flight International) even blatantly advertise this as an option.
Do you MECIR for $XXXXX with us and recieve XXX hours free or buy XXX hours with a guaranteed job.
When you see 2 dudes/dudettes flying around charter in a Baron then well its pretty obvious whats going on.
What ever your morals are on the practice, don't ever bag the guys for buying their time, its the way they see to get the hours (their choice), whilst it might not be right and the next statement whilst I have typed it I don't agree with, if they don't do it the next dude will.
Under certain cirsumstances it simply should not be allowed, I haven't read the regs for many years, something about no training during commercial ops, however the way around is to 'employ' the individual and call it 'ICUS'?
Do you MECIR for $XXXXX with us and recieve XXX hours free or buy XXX hours with a guaranteed job.
When you see 2 dudes/dudettes flying around charter in a Baron then well its pretty obvious whats going on.
What ever your morals are on the practice, don't ever bag the guys for buying their time, its the way they see to get the hours (their choice), whilst it might not be right and the next statement whilst I have typed it I don't agree with, if they don't do it the next dude will.
Under certain cirsumstances it simply should not be allowed, I haven't read the regs for many years, something about no training during commercial ops, however the way around is to 'employ' the individual and call it 'ICUS'?
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I haven't read the regs for many years, something about no training during commercial ops
(ie: the student pays...)
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Bunch of monkeys. Pay for training is done by just a bout all major Australian operators, maybe bar QF - I am interested to know how many 'people in the know' actually realise how inexperienced some crew members are on there $99 flights to Hammo. Ooooh its a jet, it must have an experienced bloke driving. Wake up Jeff - Dorothy is driving and Captain Feathersword is in the pisser.
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Qantas do exactly the same thing with cadets.
Moderator
If the Workplace Ombudsman, state and federal Industrial Relations departments and unions can't stamp out the practice and ensure all pilots are paid the correct Award rates of pay, why would CASA be able to rectify the problem - even if it were within their regulatory powers??? 
The problem does not lie with any regulators, authorities or unions.
The problem lies totally with pilots who accept these unpaid or underpaid positions.
The problem does not lie with any regulators, authorities or unions.
The problem lies totally with pilots who accept these unpaid or underpaid positions.
The Cadet will also be required to pay an up-front contribution of approximately A$10,000 towards the initial aircraft endorsement or other required qualification. This payment can be funded through a Qantas Staff Credit Union (QSCU) line of credit. This payment is required to help offset the costs associated with the Cadet's initial endorsement and also ensures the CIPP employer is not disadvantaged in the event that any additional training above the norm is required due to the Cadet's lower experience level.