Help! - Start from scratch avionics
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Help! - Start from scratch avionics
If you had a blank instrument panel, eg a rebuild project, for a high performance Cessna single, what would be your preference for avionics? Is the Garmin stack cheap enough second hand?
This is for mainly VFR, some IFR.
I have been scouring Airliners.net looking at different panel layouts, but have little idea of factors such as cost, reliabilty, etc between brands.
These are the only decide things so far:
1. Autopilot will be STEC 50
2. Must have 2 comms
3. Will have HSI linked to GPS of some sort
Any help/advice appreciated.
This is for mainly VFR, some IFR.
I have been scouring Airliners.net looking at different panel layouts, but have little idea of factors such as cost, reliabilty, etc between brands.
These are the only decide things so far:
1. Autopilot will be STEC 50
2. Must have 2 comms
3. Will have HSI linked to GPS of some sort
Any help/advice appreciated.
Warbo
You can't have a "some IFR" panel. If you are going to go IFR then you need to have a safe IFR panel.
Here's a couple of suggstions for you based on my experience.
1) Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Comm + decent Nav/Com, or 2 x Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Comm, or Garmin 530 GPS/Nav/Comm + Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Com (if you are feeling rich)
2) ADF
3) Decent transponder (Garmin?)
4) Decent audio panel (Garmin?)
5) Something in the panel that will run Jeppesen FliteDeck wired to a 530/430
6) The usual standard flight instruments - air driven AH/DG
7) Electric AH with ball (removes the need for a T&B and frees up a spot on the panel)
8) Shadin digital fuel flow
9) EDM-700 all cyclinder engine monitor
10) electric chronometer
11) intercom
If it were me, I would go for a 16W 430 and a 10W 430 and skip the 530, provided I had something in the panel to run a moving map like Jep FliteDeck.
If I had room in the panel I would also panel mount a Garmin 296/396/496 as battery powered backup to the 430s.
Dr
You can't have a "some IFR" panel. If you are going to go IFR then you need to have a safe IFR panel.
Here's a couple of suggstions for you based on my experience.
1) Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Comm + decent Nav/Com, or 2 x Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Comm, or Garmin 530 GPS/Nav/Comm + Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Com (if you are feeling rich)
2) ADF
3) Decent transponder (Garmin?)
4) Decent audio panel (Garmin?)
5) Something in the panel that will run Jeppesen FliteDeck wired to a 530/430
6) The usual standard flight instruments - air driven AH/DG
7) Electric AH with ball (removes the need for a T&B and frees up a spot on the panel)
8) Shadin digital fuel flow
9) EDM-700 all cyclinder engine monitor
10) electric chronometer
11) intercom
If it were me, I would go for a 16W 430 and a 10W 430 and skip the 530, provided I had something in the panel to run a moving map like Jep FliteDeck.
If I had room in the panel I would also panel mount a Garmin 296/396/496 as battery powered backup to the 430s.
Dr
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Thanks FTDK,
-what does 16w & 10w mean?
-never heard of flitedeck, will investigate.
Agree with your correction on IFR panel. Apart from the avionics, I would have thought 2 AH's would be without question to say the least.
Not so sure about the engine monitor. I am yet to find anyone who has saved any money, lives, cylinders, etc by using an engine monitor. (Mind you I don't cast a big net). A JP instruments fuel flow monitor - I can see the sense in that.
Anyone got anything against bendix? Do bendix have a nav/com as good as garmin's 430/530?
-what does 16w & 10w mean?
-never heard of flitedeck, will investigate.
Agree with your correction on IFR panel. Apart from the avionics, I would have thought 2 AH's would be without question to say the least.
Not so sure about the engine monitor. I am yet to find anyone who has saved any money, lives, cylinders, etc by using an engine monitor. (Mind you I don't cast a big net). A JP instruments fuel flow monitor - I can see the sense in that.
Anyone got anything against bendix? Do bendix have a nav/com as good as garmin's 430/530?
Last edited by Warbo; 29th Jan 2008 at 10:11. Reason: Poor spelingg
-what does 16w & 10w mean?
You can get Garmin 430/530 with 10 watt (W) VHF or 16 watt (W) VHF (ie 430a/530a). I have no idea of the difference in price but more power in the transmitter would be useful in my part of the world where VHF can be marginal at times.
-never heard of flite deck, will investigate.
Jeppesen FliteView/FliteDeck are electronic flightbag and moving map programs. If you look in the last couple of pages of the "More photos" thread, I have posted some photos of these running on a tablet computer I have on the yoke of the Bonanza. You can get gear to run this stuff that fits into the panel - great for IFR, and useful for VFR.
Agree with your correction on IFR panel. Apart from the avionics, I would have thought 2 AH's would be without question to say the least.
Yep
Not so sure about the engine monitor. I am yet to find anyone who has saved any money, lives, cylinders, etc by using an engine monitor. (Mind you I don't cast a big net). A JP instruments fuel flow monitor - I can see the sense in that.
Hopefully Chimbu Chuckles will see this and take over. He is the guru on all-cylinder engine monitors. I would put one in the Bo if I owned it.
You can also get some nice EFIS panels that replace the standard flight instruments etc. Been searching on Google to find the brand. CC could answer that also as he is having it installed in his Bo.
While I am spending your money - it occurred to me that some sort of TCAS would also be useful.
Dr
You can get Garmin 430/530 with 10 watt (W) VHF or 16 watt (W) VHF (ie 430a/530a). I have no idea of the difference in price but more power in the transmitter would be useful in my part of the world where VHF can be marginal at times.
-never heard of flite deck, will investigate.
Jeppesen FliteView/FliteDeck are electronic flightbag and moving map programs. If you look in the last couple of pages of the "More photos" thread, I have posted some photos of these running on a tablet computer I have on the yoke of the Bonanza. You can get gear to run this stuff that fits into the panel - great for IFR, and useful for VFR.
Agree with your correction on IFR panel. Apart from the avionics, I would have thought 2 AH's would be without question to say the least.
Yep
Not so sure about the engine monitor. I am yet to find anyone who has saved any money, lives, cylinders, etc by using an engine monitor. (Mind you I don't cast a big net). A JP instruments fuel flow monitor - I can see the sense in that.
Hopefully Chimbu Chuckles will see this and take over. He is the guru on all-cylinder engine monitors. I would put one in the Bo if I owned it.
You can also get some nice EFIS panels that replace the standard flight instruments etc. Been searching on Google to find the brand. CC could answer that also as he is having it installed in his Bo.
While I am spending your money - it occurred to me that some sort of TCAS would also be useful.
Dr
Or you could just install a Collins Proline 21 Suite, 
Grandpa Aerotart
Oh warbo, warbo, warbo....no engine monitor?
Just put a fecking engine monitor in it and accept my written assurance that having flown with one you'll never want to go without again...it are dat simple.
If it was within my budget I would be replacing all my fuel gauges/MP/RPM/volts/amps etc with an EDM 930...maybe next year.
http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_930.html
Ok clean sheeting a decent Cessna single (206/210/182rg?)...what a fun and exciting project.
One assumes funds are not unlimited and you want great value at a reasonable cost.
GPS/Nav/com
1/. Garmin G340 audio panel.
2/. OHC G430. Personally I don't think we'll ever see WAAS in Oz but a 430 is upgradeable to 430W so an each way bet.
Alternatively OHC KLN90B or KLN 94 IFR GPS + KX155a/165a navcom. I have a G340/KLN90b/KX155/Icom setup in my Bo and am happy with it. I don't like the idea of NAV/COM/GPS in one box that you can lose in 1 hit.
The reason I chose the G340 audio panel is it enables rear seat pax to chat via intercom without the pilot/copilot hearing unless they want to push a button and join in and music similarly...I have a jackplug in my panel for a MP3/apple player thingo.
My set up
3/. Icom VFR second com.
4/. Garmin transponder. (on my to do list).
I'll leave ADF/HF to you and you already have an A/P picked out.
Instrumentation wise.
Look at the Aspen avionics links below and the decision will be made. An EFD1000 ATP costs about the same as an OHC mechanical HSI (10-13k) but gives you ADAHRS/Flight Director/colour moving terrain map/normal map/HSI/ IAS and ALT tapes/altsel and alert/IAS and Alt bugs for Vref/minima/VSI with emergency standby power (minimum 30 minutes via an internal rechargeable battery), standby GPS and is software driven so updates are just a SD ram card away...will interface with all A/Ps, GPS. GPSS roll steering is incorporated as well as annunciators for GPS approaches.
Not to mention traffic/terrain/weather...
Or for close to the same $ (except you'd have to think OHC HSIs are about to become VERY CHEAP) you can get a KCS55A with a course bar
ALL solid state and with no moving parts!!!!
http://www.aspenavionics.com/pdfs/Ce...ion_Jan_08.pdf
http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.p...s/efd1000-atp/
Stick an EFIS backup AH (I can't remember the company but Jabawocky has the details- non certified but very good and cheap) and put the steam driven A/H (required by CASA regs ) in the co-pilot panel...or the aft cabin fecking bulkhead.
Edit: I found the non certified EFIS backup A/H...Dynon D10A.
http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html
Just put a fecking engine monitor in it and accept my written assurance that having flown with one you'll never want to go without again...it are dat simple.
If it was within my budget I would be replacing all my fuel gauges/MP/RPM/volts/amps etc with an EDM 930...maybe next year.
http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_930.html
Ok clean sheeting a decent Cessna single (206/210/182rg?)...what a fun and exciting project.
One assumes funds are not unlimited and you want great value at a reasonable cost.
GPS/Nav/com
1/. Garmin G340 audio panel.
2/. OHC G430. Personally I don't think we'll ever see WAAS in Oz but a 430 is upgradeable to 430W so an each way bet.
Alternatively OHC KLN90B or KLN 94 IFR GPS + KX155a/165a navcom. I have a G340/KLN90b/KX155/Icom setup in my Bo and am happy with it. I don't like the idea of NAV/COM/GPS in one box that you can lose in 1 hit.
The reason I chose the G340 audio panel is it enables rear seat pax to chat via intercom without the pilot/copilot hearing unless they want to push a button and join in and music similarly...I have a jackplug in my panel for a MP3/apple player thingo.
My set up
3/. Icom VFR second com.
4/. Garmin transponder. (on my to do list).
I'll leave ADF/HF to you and you already have an A/P picked out.
Instrumentation wise.
Look at the Aspen avionics links below and the decision will be made. An EFD1000 ATP costs about the same as an OHC mechanical HSI (10-13k) but gives you ADAHRS/Flight Director/colour moving terrain map/normal map/HSI/ IAS and ALT tapes/altsel and alert/IAS and Alt bugs for Vref/minima/VSI with emergency standby power (minimum 30 minutes via an internal rechargeable battery), standby GPS and is software driven so updates are just a SD ram card away...will interface with all A/Ps, GPS. GPSS roll steering is incorporated as well as annunciators for GPS approaches.
Not to mention traffic/terrain/weather...
Or for close to the same $ (except you'd have to think OHC HSIs are about to become VERY CHEAP) you can get a KCS55A with a course bar
ALL solid state and with no moving parts!!!!
http://www.aspenavionics.com/pdfs/Ce...ion_Jan_08.pdf
http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.p...s/efd1000-atp/
Stick an EFIS backup AH (I can't remember the company but Jabawocky has the details- non certified but very good and cheap) and put the steam driven A/H (required by CASA regs
) in the co-pilot panel...or the aft cabin fecking bulkhead.Edit: I found the non certified EFIS backup A/H...Dynon D10A.
http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 29th Jan 2008 at 16:44.
Regretfully, you cannot retro the G1000 kit. You can get the G600
Garmin G600
Still need the avionics. A couple of 430Ws, an autopilot , transponder and engine monitor plus some steam gauge backups and you are on your way to being very broke
Garmin G600
Still need the avionics. A couple of 430Ws, an autopilot , transponder and engine monitor plus some steam gauge backups and you are on your way to being very broke
Grandpa Aerotart
You'll notice all my recommendations fit into the current 3 inch holes in your panel...a big money saving plus...and do everything the G600/1000 do at a small fraction of the cost.
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FTDK - Can you not rig up some way of painting the StormScope data onto one of your various map displays?
Shame the G1000 setup can't be retrofitted, but I suspect that it would be cost prohibitive even if available.....anyone care to put some estimated budgets around the other options?
Shame the G1000 setup can't be retrofitted, but I suspect that it would be cost prohibitive even if available.....anyone care to put some estimated budgets around the other options?
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Have flown a 172RG with the D10 as a back-up AH in it. Bloody wonderful! If only it were certified then it'd be great as a backup AH for IFR twins.
A Jabiru I've seen has the bigger version of the D10 in it... D100 I think? As well as the little Dynon EMS, pilots rekon it's great!
Local school is due to get a G1000 C182 soon, that will be a nice piece of kit.
Can recommend (from a pilots perspective) Garmin S34 or S32 (I think that's it.) only difference is one's a nav/comm the others just a comm, beauty is that it allows you to monitor the freq selected as stby as well as use the active (priority given to the active) makes it like two comms in one! GNS430 is also a good buy, but that's personal opinion because I like the Garmin display over the King one.
A Jabiru I've seen has the bigger version of the D10 in it... D100 I think? As well as the little Dynon EMS, pilots rekon it's great!
Local school is due to get a G1000 C182 soon, that will be a nice piece of kit.
Can recommend (from a pilots perspective) Garmin S34 or S32 (I think that's it.) only difference is one's a nav/comm the others just a comm, beauty is that it allows you to monitor the freq selected as stby as well as use the active (priority given to the active) makes it like two comms in one! GNS430 is also a good buy, but that's personal opinion because I like the Garmin display over the King one.
The Aspen PFD basic unit lists for around US$5900 at this stage. I reckon I'll be getting one for the 185 when they get to certified stage. Cheaper than replacing AH, DG and Vac pump, at the same time.
The GMA340 audio panel is good unit with excellent intercom, as Chimbu has stated. I have one in my machine. Squelch circuitry is great and individual on each input(although, not adjustable on each inputs).
185.
The GMA340 audio panel is good unit with excellent intercom, as Chimbu has stated. I have one in my machine. Squelch circuitry is great and individual on each input(although, not adjustable on each inputs).
185.
Grandpa Aerotart
If I was going for a Garmin PFM box (and I agree they are excellent-just not enough redundancy unless you have two) as a stand alone unit with a second com I'd actually go the G530/530W over a 430...nice big screen so the freq boxes doesn't reduce the moving map part to near useless.
Bigger screen means bigger $ unfortunately and to some extent the ND in the Aspen makes a bigger screen PFM box redundant.
You can of course buy the more basic EFD1000 Pro or pilot and upgrade later.
Bigger screen means bigger $ unfortunately and to some extent the ND in the Aspen makes a bigger screen PFM box redundant.
You can of course buy the more basic EFD1000 Pro or pilot and upgrade later.
You can always rely on getting a diversity of opinion in here (or on anything to do with aviation for that matter).
Having flown with both the Garmin 430 and the Garmin 530, and given that the graphics of both is pretty basic compared with what is available in other moving map gear, I wouldn't waste my money on a 530. Too many other cool goodies that I could buy with the difference in $$!
Dr
Having flown with both the Garmin 430 and the Garmin 530, and given that the graphics of both is pretty basic compared with what is available in other moving map gear, I wouldn't waste my money on a 530. Too many other cool goodies that I could buy with the difference in $$!
Dr
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Hmmmmmmmmmm... So many options!
Initially my thoughts were:
Avionics stack:
1. Bendix audio panel
2. Bendix/King GPS similar to chucks (already have one withe the red display - can't remember model though)
3. Bendix Nav/Com
4. Bendix Com
5. Bendix ADF
6. GME UHF
Instruments:
1. Standard 6 but replace DG with HSI
2. No second VOR
3. ADF needle
4. STEC autopilot
5. Second AH
6. Fuel flow (which will now be EDM 700, thanks to the insistance of no one in particular...)
Now these fancy looking Garmins and Flitedeck are looking the goods
Second GPS? Maybe Satloc (ag marking GPS) over on the RHS panel
Now I don't know what to do...
If money was not a limiting factor, I would go Garmin audio, 530, 430, Garmin txpdr, King ADF, UHF + Aspen Pro (when it comes out - that is the sh!t). I heard that Garmin sold overhauled 430's for a fraction of the cost of a new one, but I found out today that they no longer do it because they were selling more of them than the new ones.
Garmin 530 - USD$10000 - new
Garmin 430 - USD$6200 - new
Obviously the goal of a 'start from scratch' panel is to make it neat and not looking like things have been added as an afterthought.
Dr, I never considered a stormscope.
I appreciate everyone's comments so far. Keep 'em coming!
Initially my thoughts were:
Avionics stack:
1. Bendix audio panel
2. Bendix/King GPS similar to chucks (already have one withe the red display - can't remember model though)
3. Bendix Nav/Com
4. Bendix Com
5. Bendix ADF
6. GME UHF
Instruments:
1. Standard 6 but replace DG with HSI
2. No second VOR
3. ADF needle
4. STEC autopilot
5. Second AH
6. Fuel flow (which will now be EDM 700, thanks to the insistance of no one in particular...
)Now these fancy looking Garmins and Flitedeck are looking the goods
Second GPS? Maybe Satloc (ag marking GPS) over on the RHS panel
Now I don't know what to do...
If money was not a limiting factor, I would go Garmin audio, 530, 430, Garmin txpdr, King ADF, UHF + Aspen Pro (when it comes out - that is the sh!t). I heard that Garmin sold overhauled 430's for a fraction of the cost of a new one, but I found out today that they no longer do it because they were selling more of them than the new ones.
Garmin 530 - USD$10000 - new
Garmin 430 - USD$6200 - new
Obviously the goal of a 'start from scratch' panel is to make it neat and not looking like things have been added as an afterthought.
Dr, I never considered a stormscope.
I appreciate everyone's comments so far. Keep 'em coming!
Grandpa Aerotart
Ahh a Bendix King man
That 'red screen' GPS is a KLN89...next came the 90B and then the 94...interestingly the 90B is a more powerful navigator but the 94 is colour and while not quite as loaded with features is a little more user friendly.
Bendix King built the 90b and 94s to be pin for pin identical to the 89 so you can buy an OHC KLN94 with the nice colour screen and just slide it into the rack and go saving substantial cash on installation. Not certain but an OHC 94 would be about $2500-$3000. Bendix King have suggested that a WAAS upgrade could be in the 94s future. That is about what I paid for my OHC 90B 4 or 5 years ago...the 90B when new was considered a top shelf/feature rich and very expensive unit (like 10k new)...then along came Garmin.
The air data computer in the EFD1000 will fill out all those empty TAS/Wind etc pages in the KLN nicely.
Personally I am not into big moving maps and 18in wide PFDs...I actually don't like the G1000 cockpits at all. The aspen gear pushes all my buttons though
That 'red screen' GPS is a KLN89...next came the 90B and then the 94...interestingly the 90B is a more powerful navigator but the 94 is colour and while not quite as loaded with features is a little more user friendly.
Bendix King built the 90b and 94s to be pin for pin identical to the 89 so you can buy an OHC KLN94 with the nice colour screen and just slide it into the rack and go saving substantial cash on installation. Not certain but an OHC 94 would be about $2500-$3000. Bendix King have suggested that a WAAS upgrade could be in the 94s future. That is about what I paid for my OHC 90B 4 or 5 years ago...the 90B when new was considered a top shelf/feature rich and very expensive unit (like 10k new)...then along came Garmin.
The air data computer in the EFD1000 will fill out all those empty TAS/Wind etc pages in the KLN nicely.
Personally I am not into big moving maps and 18in wide PFDs...I actually don't like the G1000 cockpits at all. The aspen gear pushes all my buttons though
Warbo
It would be interesting to conduct a straw pole in here of people who are qualified to fly GPS RNAV Apprs using both the Bendix/King GPS and the Garmin 430/530, to see what there preference would be.
I'll kick it off - GARMIN EVERYTIME!
Dr
PS: I'm with Chuckles on the G1000. I wonder how long it would take to have one of those big screens replaced when it suddenly goes blank - and at what cost.
It would be interesting to conduct a straw pole in here of people who are qualified to fly GPS RNAV Apprs using both the Bendix/King GPS and the Garmin 430/530, to see what there preference would be.
I'll kick it off - GARMIN EVERYTIME!
Dr
PS: I'm with Chuckles on the G1000. I wonder how long it would take to have one of those big screens replaced when it suddenly goes blank - and at what cost.
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 30th Jan 2008 at 09:17.
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Good point, Dr. We had a screen that is roughly 8"x6" replaced for a satloc - $4,500!!!!!!
I am with chuck about the G1000. Looking on airliners.net at the new 172/182s: The model/option with normal instruments and a neat avionics stack looks heaps more attractive than the G1000 job. It seems to me that the latest cessnas are trying to put pilots into the airline flight deck from ab-initio, which is fair enough, but not what most of us are after. A bit OTT, to use an acronym that seems to be popular amongst some.
I am with chuck about the G1000. Looking on airliners.net at the new 172/182s: The model/option with normal instruments and a neat avionics stack looks heaps more attractive than the G1000 job. It seems to me that the latest cessnas are trying to put pilots into the airline flight deck from ab-initio, which is fair enough, but not what most of us are after. A bit OTT, to use an acronym that seems to be popular amongst some.
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Here we go again , GARMIN can do no wrong.... when we all know they are really just overpriced, no longer state of the art and monopolistic with indifferent customer service...
Take a squint at these - should give 'em a run for their money for under 10 Grand! - presuming the evil empire don't acquire the company first.
http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.p...s/efd1000-pro/
Take a squint at these - should give 'em a run for their money for under 10 Grand! - presuming the evil empire don't acquire the company first.
http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.p...s/efd1000-pro/