C402b fuel system
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Goodness gracious me! Multiple sectors with the onerous task of keeping a detailed fuel log. Is that even allowed under the regs!
Still, your okay now. Capacitance systems are 100% reliable so no need for a second or God forbid a third method of determining FOB.
Defen (and other interested parties), for the record, RDZ was the first to retire. For its last flight it was stripped to the bone. Most of the floor out, lots of holes in the panel etc. It was parked at Cooloolah Stn to beat parking fees at MA and Christmas tree'd over the next twelve monthes before being bought by Honest Dennis and trucked to HUG to join the collection.
Subsequently an immaculate low time A model (long nose) was purchased from the fellow who started TAMAIR. His name escapes me at the moment but he is still a player in Aus Av with engineering and hostie training in Qld.
The A model was imported from Japan, very well tarted up at a school for engineers in TAM and reregistered VH RDZ. An incredibly accurate STEC autopilot was also fitted.
Sad to hear that it is well past its former glory.
BPX is the machine sitting in the SES yard. It spent a bit over a year in PNG at the end of its life, performing fairly honestly but not popular, (visible shaking) with the pilots.
All that stress with detailed fuel logs I think.
It was brought back for the engines. Last flight was Madang-Horn Island-Weipa-Mount Isa. 17000' past Mt Wilhelm.
On a personal note Defen, do you recall Manwell's perceptive question on which fuel to use/transfer first? The aux, or the nacelle?
Still, your okay now. Capacitance systems are 100% reliable so no need for a second or God forbid a third method of determining FOB.
Defen (and other interested parties), for the record, RDZ was the first to retire. For its last flight it was stripped to the bone. Most of the floor out, lots of holes in the panel etc. It was parked at Cooloolah Stn to beat parking fees at MA and Christmas tree'd over the next twelve monthes before being bought by Honest Dennis and trucked to HUG to join the collection.
Subsequently an immaculate low time A model (long nose) was purchased from the fellow who started TAMAIR. His name escapes me at the moment but he is still a player in Aus Av with engineering and hostie training in Qld.
The A model was imported from Japan, very well tarted up at a school for engineers in TAM and reregistered VH RDZ. An incredibly accurate STEC autopilot was also fitted.
Sad to hear that it is well past its former glory.
BPX is the machine sitting in the SES yard. It spent a bit over a year in PNG at the end of its life, performing fairly honestly but not popular, (visible shaking) with the pilots.
All that stress with detailed fuel logs I think.
It was brought back for the engines. Last flight was Madang-Horn Island-Weipa-Mount Isa. 17000' past Mt Wilhelm.
On a personal note Defen, do you recall Manwell's perceptive question on which fuel to use/transfer first? The aux, or the nacelle?
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Originally Posted by Brian Abraham
Here is a 421B fuel diagram I got from the web some time ago. I suspect its not dissimilar to the 402.
The crux of this problem is understanding the fuel-return-to-tank system.
From the 1985 C402C POH...
ENGINE DRIVEN FUEL PUMPS
Each engine is equipped with a mechanically driven fuel pump which provides fuel to the metering. Each pump also contains a bypass which returns excess fuel and vapour to the main tanks at all times (my bolding). Should these pumps fail, the main tank auxiliary pumps can provide sufficient fuel flow for all partial-power engine operations.
So, the engine driven fuel pumps always supply fuel at a rate required for full power ops. At lower power operations, fuel is returned to the mains. In a C model, the engine pump draws a lot, and returns some to the mains. In a B model, you gotta make sure there is room for that returned fuel, otherwise it will be vented overboard. And your aux tanks will be emptied at a rate equal to TO power!
Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
I do, however, seem to recall a process we went through on pre-flight to check the function of the fuel pumps, but I can't tell you the details without recourse to the POH. Does suggest an overly complex system.
Not a complex system really, FTDK. How to 'imagine' the proper use of the system, just think:
L selector = selects the tank to feed the L engine
R selector = selects the tank to feed the R engine
Choices in A/B models: Same side aux, same side main, off, opposite side main via crossfeed pipe.
Choices in C model: Same side main, off, opposite side main via crossfeed pipe.
Problems: The selector, mounted on the floor between the two pilot seats, remotely turns the fuel control (selector) valve via cables. Just because a selector handle is pointing to a tank, doesn't mean the valve has selected that tank. It is possible for AUX to be selected if the pilot has not checked the detent is in MAIN. Symptoms: fuel being burned from one side of the aircraft only, other main not decreasing, or possibly even increasing as fuel is returned to that tank by the same side engine pump.
Also, water can settle in the tank that might not have been properly drained in the preflight.
The Airnorth informal 'solution' from the 1980s/1990s, not from the POH:
Preflight, electrics on, listen for the 'ticka-ticka-ticka' of the pumps during the walkaround.
Startup, taxi to runup and warmup on mains. Select both engines to AUX tanks for power and CSU checks to pull some fuel through those lines. Then individually select each engine to xfeed from the opposite MAIN tank, then push the button on the selector to momentarily select ENG OFF, observe power loss as engine driven pumps starved of fuel (momentarily, dont let it die!) then immediately return to same side MAIN feed. Repeat for opposite engine.
Feel for the detent on each selection.
In that way you have drawn fuel from each of the three sources of supply for each engine, checked the fuel off selection, and ensured that you will be feeding same side MAIN to ENGINE when you startup for departure, even if your fuel selector cables are slack.
Some C400 pilots liked to also check operation of the emergency crossfeed shutoff lever, but more than a few LAME didn't like us doing this -- the emerg xfeed was also cable operated, but was a single cable run, 'pull-to-close-push-to-open-again' sort of cable. Daily operation/testing of the emerg xfeed shutoff just led to lots of cable replacements!
Other things I remember about C400....
....Check the wires in the 'piano' hinges that attach gear doors and other hatches to the aircraft during walkaround... they had a habit of working their way out and unhinging the door!
...If you suspect a blown globe in the cockpit gear indicator lamps, DONT attempt to change the globe whilst electrical power is on... you will just blow ALL the globes when you push the lamp unit back in!
...It is possible to offload nine pax, load 25 cartons of bread containing a dozen loaves each, and manifest/load/brief 9 new pax in 9 minutes and 25 seconds, but no less
(Normal caveat applies, has been more than a few years since I operated C400 series!)
Seasonally Adjusted
When refuelling to full mains and aux....fill aux first then start on mains. By the time the main tank is full the level in the aux should have dropped. The fuel takes a little longer to flow through the pipe work and into the second aux tank.
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"Spotlight".........Tamairs owner (well one of them years ago, but not sure if he was the original starter) was Paul B, I won't say his last name here, clever guy
"Plovett" the only Cessna A/P I was lucky enough to have work properly was an old C200 in an old C172, wings lvl was a luxury way back then !
CW
"Plovett" the only Cessna A/P I was lucky enough to have work properly was an old C200 in an old C172, wings lvl was a luxury way back then !
CW
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Defen
No, not an engine failure problem. More the AC power. Electric pumps are used to move the fuel from the slippers to the mains, as distinct from the cable/valve arrangement with the aux tanks.
Even with the Field Switch to excite the AC it was thought to be prudent to move the fuel reliant on electrics first.
No, not an engine failure problem. More the AC power. Electric pumps are used to move the fuel from the slippers to the mains, as distinct from the cable/valve arrangement with the aux tanks.
Even with the Field Switch to excite the AC it was thought to be prudent to move the fuel reliant on electrics first.
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I hate to add my (probably very inflammitory) comment to this, but I feel I need to!
All these C4XX series fuel system problems can be solved by simply taking the offending Cessna out the back, leaving it there and replacing it with a Chieftain. Or an Aerostar. Fuel problem solved.
Let the hate mail commence...
All these C4XX series fuel system problems can be solved by simply taking the offending Cessna out the back, leaving it there and replacing it with a Chieftain. Or an Aerostar. Fuel problem solved.
Let the hate mail commence...
PLovett, you wouldn't survive in the heyday of Talair and there C402A operation in PNG.
Plenty of GA aircraft with complex fuel systems:
Partenavia P68B, how many people on their endorsement were actually shown how the fuel system worked including the crossfeed, amazing how linkages etc can seize up when not used etc
Piper PA30 with nacelle and tip tanks,
Piper PA31 Pressurised Navajo VH-BSF/SGA,
Plenty of GA aircraft with complex fuel systems:
Partenavia P68B, how many people on their endorsement were actually shown how the fuel system worked including the crossfeed, amazing how linkages etc can seize up when not used etc
Piper PA30 with nacelle and tip tanks,
Piper PA31 Pressurised Navajo VH-BSF/SGA,
In my experience, Cessna A/Ps and "working" are generally mutually exclusive events
Stationair8: PLovett, you wouldn't survive in the heyday of Talair and there C402A operation in PNG.
re burn slipper(s) or aux first?
I'd rather burn the aux. first (after testing to make sure the slipper transfer pump works...). Even allowing for the undocumented possibility of transferring the failed side aux fuel to its same side main using the Hi Press fuel pumps + mixture ICO + Aux selected I most definitely don't wan't to be caught on one engine with dead weight of virtually unaccessible fuel in the failed side aux.
I'd rather burn the aux. first (after testing to make sure the slipper transfer pump works...). Even allowing for the undocumented possibility of transferring the failed side aux fuel to its same side main using the Hi Press fuel pumps + mixture ICO + Aux selected I most definitely don't wan't to be caught on one engine with dead weight of virtually unaccessible fuel in the failed side aux.
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My apologies to the starter of this post, but the Piper line is the pilots plane...
Rugged, reliable, simple, forgiveing, well built planes.
PA-31. 2 tanks a side, and it either on mains or aux.
PA 600. 3 tanks, all on, all the time (Yes, I know I am simplifying it, but not that much!)
Apart from the Aerostar, the Piper line had excellent compatability from the lower models. Warrior, Archer, Lance/Saratoga, Seminole, Senecca, Navajo/Chieftain. They all share the same basic layout and same simplicity, and as you progess on your career, there is a degree of familiarity when upgrading! The good folks at Piper would never design into thier Aircraft a way where you could accidentally vent fuel overboard.
And to test the 'age factor' waters, who remembera VH-SAO?
Rugged, reliable, simple, forgiveing, well built planes.
PA-31. 2 tanks a side, and it either on mains or aux.
PA 600. 3 tanks, all on, all the time (Yes, I know I am simplifying it, but not that much!)
Apart from the Aerostar, the Piper line had excellent compatability from the lower models. Warrior, Archer, Lance/Saratoga, Seminole, Senecca, Navajo/Chieftain. They all share the same basic layout and same simplicity, and as you progess on your career, there is a degree of familiarity when upgrading! The good folks at Piper would never design into thier Aircraft a way where you could accidentally vent fuel overboard.
And to test the 'age factor' waters, who remembera VH-SAO?
VH-SAO Piper PA-31 Sally Anne Osgood the pride of Arnhem Air's fleet.
It must have been one of the first PA-31's bought into the country.
A mate flew it in between Ossie sacking him, the aircraft had less than 5000 hours in early 1970. He got the sack one morning after flying and went home 4pm the phone rings it was Ossie you aren't sacked anymore , and your got a charter tonight Darwin-Coober Pedy for an Opal buyer.
Capt Fathom nothing special about Talair and their C402 operation, at the time they were leading operator in the world with hours flown etc
It must have been one of the first PA-31's bought into the country.
A mate flew it in between Ossie sacking him, the aircraft had less than 5000 hours in early 1970. He got the sack one morning after flying and went home 4pm the phone rings it was Ossie you aren't sacked anymore , and your got a charter tonight Darwin-Coober Pedy for an Opal buyer.
Capt Fathom nothing special about Talair and their C402 operation, at the time they were leading operator in the world with hours flown etc
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HAHAHAHA... The fickle nature of GA...
I am not even sure SAO flys anymore. Last time I saw it, it had nearly 20,000 hrs on it, and looked in a most decrepit state. Seems everyone that ever flew a PA31 in Australia cut at least a few teeth in it!
I am not even sure SAO flys anymore. Last time I saw it, it had nearly 20,000 hrs on it, and looked in a most decrepit state. Seems everyone that ever flew a PA31 in Australia cut at least a few teeth in it!