Pilots getting the 'upper hand' in Australia. When?
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Pilots getting the 'upper hand' in Australia. When?
Not just to add another thread for whinging and carrying on.
I've been in this industry long enough to know the good and bad and frustrating parts.
Speaking to a good friend of mine (a captain in REX). He says this:
"There's 2 types of people at rex:
1) People who will move to jets regardless (nothing will stop them)
2) ... and those who will stay in Rex due to factors such as family, location, sporting/recreational commitments... etc. etc. But CAN NOT afford to stay at rex because the wage simply can not support them and their family and lifestyle - so they are forced to look for higher paying jobs.
Something's gotta give soon. My work collueges and I talk often on this subject and have come to the conclusion that management types are holding off as long as possible to increase wages and improve terms/conditions. Because as soon as they do that - it will open up a revolution history - and management types will have to get used to the idea of not having the luxury of shaking a tree, like they have done the last 15-20 years. They've loved the fact that they have been able to save a killing in pilot training.
My collueges and I also believe that it is inevitable that T&C's will be improved, and some fantastic salary packages will open up.
I heard of a guy in the middle east getting paid USD60, 000 for a 3 month contract flying a business jet. (A sign of the times?)
My question is. When will Australia follow suit. I want to come home...
I've been in this industry long enough to know the good and bad and frustrating parts.
Speaking to a good friend of mine (a captain in REX). He says this:
"There's 2 types of people at rex:
1) People who will move to jets regardless (nothing will stop them)
2) ... and those who will stay in Rex due to factors such as family, location, sporting/recreational commitments... etc. etc. But CAN NOT afford to stay at rex because the wage simply can not support them and their family and lifestyle - so they are forced to look for higher paying jobs.
Something's gotta give soon. My work collueges and I talk often on this subject and have come to the conclusion that management types are holding off as long as possible to increase wages and improve terms/conditions. Because as soon as they do that - it will open up a revolution history - and management types will have to get used to the idea of not having the luxury of shaking a tree, like they have done the last 15-20 years. They've loved the fact that they have been able to save a killing in pilot training.
My collueges and I also believe that it is inevitable that T&C's will be improved, and some fantastic salary packages will open up.
I heard of a guy in the middle east getting paid USD60, 000 for a 3 month contract flying a business jet. (A sign of the times?)
My question is. When will Australia follow suit. I want to come home...
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I have never seen so many low hour job adds for pilots.
So if there's a growing hole at the bottom of the industry,
it must spread to the top.
Must be a few aeroplanes sitting on the ground.
Or, there soon will be.
I just got contacted by a company that ignored my
application for almost 3 years, now they would like
to talk. Talk we will- but the meters running.
If this small anecdote is a sign, look out operators.
You will be paying upwards and upwards.
We pilots will demand much more. AND sign on bonuses,
paid endorsements etc.etc
I've been waiting almost 40 years to see it.
SHOW US THE MONEY!!
So if there's a growing hole at the bottom of the industry,
it must spread to the top.
Must be a few aeroplanes sitting on the ground.
Or, there soon will be.
I just got contacted by a company that ignored my
application for almost 3 years, now they would like
to talk. Talk we will- but the meters running.
If this small anecdote is a sign, look out operators.
You will be paying upwards and upwards.
We pilots will demand much more. AND sign on bonuses,
paid endorsements etc.etc
I've been waiting almost 40 years to see it.
SHOW US THE MONEY!!
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REX
I recently applied for the pilot cadetship with REX, but am still waiting to hear back...
Any insider knowledge/tips/warnings that people in the know can supply about REX?
I must admit, I was surprised at how little you earn as a pilot with REX.. no wonder they're losing their pilots to bigger airlines.
Any insider knowledge/tips/warnings that people in the know can supply about REX?
I must admit, I was surprised at how little you earn as a pilot with REX.. no wonder they're losing their pilots to bigger airlines.
I was just speaking to a mate of mine last night who use to work with me up in Cairns. It appears most of the charter operators up there are now having to park aircraft and turn work away due to a severe lack of pilots. Even the Aero Club is finding it difficult to find instructors.
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The operators can hold off on raising T&C's as long as they like. The longer they do, the more they are going to get screwed (and I don't take delight in saying it that way). They could raise rates now and initiate a gradual future raise program and try and absorb the costs and enjoy some goodwill with their current pilots, or; they can continue to hold the line, become more and more desperate, continue to lose pilots and quickly find themselves bent over a barrel with the few remaining available pilots on top dictating terms and with absolutely no control over the increase in cost.
This is amazing how quickly a drought of appropriate pilots has impacted Australian aviation. Imagine what it's going to be like in another year or two.
Kristy, be very, very careful. A cadetship with Rex may be absolutely wonderful and a great opportunity. However, you need to fully evaluate whether Rex has a long term future given their current pilot retention rate. I don't know the details with Rex, but usually a program to CPL takes payments in advance and in large increments. If you take out a loan, get 5 hours flying time logged and then the flight training program is folded for one reason or another, where does that leave you? Does the contract to remain with Rex after you graduate have a release clause if Rex can no longer employ you? For example, you take out a loan, achieve your CPL, spend a year or two with Rex and then are told that your services are no longer required, but your repayments are. Where does that leave you? You need to make sure you are not exposed, or that the possible risks are worth the perceived outcome.
This is amazing how quickly a drought of appropriate pilots has impacted Australian aviation. Imagine what it's going to be like in another year or two.
Kristy, be very, very careful. A cadetship with Rex may be absolutely wonderful and a great opportunity. However, you need to fully evaluate whether Rex has a long term future given their current pilot retention rate. I don't know the details with Rex, but usually a program to CPL takes payments in advance and in large increments. If you take out a loan, get 5 hours flying time logged and then the flight training program is folded for one reason or another, where does that leave you? Does the contract to remain with Rex after you graduate have a release clause if Rex can no longer employ you? For example, you take out a loan, achieve your CPL, spend a year or two with Rex and then are told that your services are no longer required, but your repayments are. Where does that leave you? You need to make sure you are not exposed, or that the possible risks are worth the perceived outcome.
kristy7781 "I must admit, I was surprised at how little you earn as a pilot with REX.."
And yet you seem more than willing to accept this substandard wage, and indirectly supporting rex management who refuse to pay pilots their true worth. Instead- they implement a cadetship to find "pilots" who are willing to get a short term gain in their careers at the expense of pilot wages in the company.
I used to see Rex as a place I would really like to work for in the future, even as recent as 9-12 months ago, not knowing what I do now, I would have loved to stay with a company like rex for 5-10 years. A medium-term stay with a large regional really interests me, but not with Rex anymore.
It seems now that you would be unlucky NOT to see a twin in your first 12 months of holding a CPL if you choose your employer well. The benefits of going piston GA would FAR outweigh a rex cadetship, if you are willing to do the work.
And yet you seem more than willing to accept this substandard wage, and indirectly supporting rex management who refuse to pay pilots their true worth. Instead- they implement a cadetship to find "pilots" who are willing to get a short term gain in their careers at the expense of pilot wages in the company.
I used to see Rex as a place I would really like to work for in the future, even as recent as 9-12 months ago, not knowing what I do now, I would have loved to stay with a company like rex for 5-10 years. A medium-term stay with a large regional really interests me, but not with Rex anymore.
It seems now that you would be unlucky NOT to see a twin in your first 12 months of holding a CPL if you choose your employer well. The benefits of going piston GA would FAR outweigh a rex cadetship, if you are willing to do the work.
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It's ironic that Rex can't keep pilots in the SAAB's. Assuming instructors continue to get paid less than SAAB pilots, what chance does Rex have of keeping instructors in their cadet course, or will they bond the instructors as well? Perhaps it will be part of the career progression within Rex...CPL cadet, CPL, instructor, ATP at some time, SAAB right seat, left seat, bond up and gone.
Last edited by Lodown; 11th Nov 2007 at 06:18.
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For all current pilots and wannabes in Australia, I feel your concerns, anger and bitterness towards what is clearly evolving into a doomed industry. Well, not if Management of companies such as REX decide to pull their finger (some may have several, each to their own..erm..fetish!!!) out of their a** !
I used to work for Kendell Airlines, when it seemed to be quite a reputable company. Great team, nice route structure, gleaming reputation..heck, it was even akin to passing a major lifetime event if deemed successful through the selection process...in simple terms.. there was a certain 'glamour' in saying you were a Kendell Airlines Pilot. However, I am well aware things changed very quickly there - I was one of the many who were stood down and ultimately had to find my own way to another company.
Companies will cut down costs in any way that they can - take the demise of Ansett, regarding the subsidiary in mention above. All aircrew in certain bases of KD, nearing ANY form of revalidation, be it Line Check, Sim Check or even something as simple as an Annual Emergency Procedures reval, were 'stood down'.. just like that ! Anything to cut costs... and this, at a time where, fairly in retrospect, the company had no option. Well, stranding ADL based crew at Wagga wasn't what we planned the day KD fell over..the Skipper, and Flightie of the last Saab flight into Wagga would remember...I was their F/O...
Nowadays, with a worldwide shortage of qualified aircrew knocking on the doors of every Australian (let alone the world) Operator, and yet, they still have the arrogance (call it what you may) and utter stupidity to not 'wake up and smell the roses'...it's NOT going to get any better - we're all well aware of that. Cadetships, whilst respectfully providing first time Turbine-to-be drivers a leap forward in their professional careers, are NOT the solution. The solution ? Well, for starters..pay Pilots MORE! Look after them ! Here we are, all our aviation lives, being exposed and hammered with the concepts of CRM, Threat and Error Management, James Reason's 'Swiss Cheese' Model..the 'C-L-E-A-R' model etc... all fine and good.. but if 'CRM-making full use of all available resources' means screwing your pilots, well then, I guess there'll be more pleas of desparation to come.
Like wrongwayaround has mentioned, we all know REX pilots (some former KD) who are either leaving right now (to the likes of Jet* etc), not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to.
There are many of us, now living and working abroad..the choice we were offered several years back. Many of us also have intentions of returning home some day. With the shortage of experienced pilots being felt worldwide, I am sure the big players would have NO TROUBLE in getting some back home, but of course at the same time, looking after the ones they have right now !
Wrongwayaround-I may not compare to your length of 'stay' in this industry (17yrs for me) but there certainly are many things that can make this industry very frustrating Let's just hope, the 'passion' and 'prestige' in being a Pilot returns, because these days, it's all about the money... that is, lack of !
I wish all fellow Oz pilots best of luck in the present difficult times and hope it improves
I used to work for Kendell Airlines, when it seemed to be quite a reputable company. Great team, nice route structure, gleaming reputation..heck, it was even akin to passing a major lifetime event if deemed successful through the selection process...in simple terms.. there was a certain 'glamour' in saying you were a Kendell Airlines Pilot. However, I am well aware things changed very quickly there - I was one of the many who were stood down and ultimately had to find my own way to another company.
Companies will cut down costs in any way that they can - take the demise of Ansett, regarding the subsidiary in mention above. All aircrew in certain bases of KD, nearing ANY form of revalidation, be it Line Check, Sim Check or even something as simple as an Annual Emergency Procedures reval, were 'stood down'.. just like that ! Anything to cut costs... and this, at a time where, fairly in retrospect, the company had no option. Well, stranding ADL based crew at Wagga wasn't what we planned the day KD fell over..the Skipper, and Flightie of the last Saab flight into Wagga would remember...I was their F/O...
Nowadays, with a worldwide shortage of qualified aircrew knocking on the doors of every Australian (let alone the world) Operator, and yet, they still have the arrogance (call it what you may) and utter stupidity to not 'wake up and smell the roses'...it's NOT going to get any better - we're all well aware of that. Cadetships, whilst respectfully providing first time Turbine-to-be drivers a leap forward in their professional careers, are NOT the solution. The solution ? Well, for starters..pay Pilots MORE! Look after them ! Here we are, all our aviation lives, being exposed and hammered with the concepts of CRM, Threat and Error Management, James Reason's 'Swiss Cheese' Model..the 'C-L-E-A-R' model etc... all fine and good.. but if 'CRM-making full use of all available resources' means screwing your pilots, well then, I guess there'll be more pleas of desparation to come.
Like wrongwayaround has mentioned, we all know REX pilots (some former KD) who are either leaving right now (to the likes of Jet* etc), not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to.
There are many of us, now living and working abroad..the choice we were offered several years back. Many of us also have intentions of returning home some day. With the shortage of experienced pilots being felt worldwide, I am sure the big players would have NO TROUBLE in getting some back home, but of course at the same time, looking after the ones they have right now !
Wrongwayaround-I may not compare to your length of 'stay' in this industry (17yrs for me) but there certainly are many things that can make this industry very frustrating
Let's just hope, the 'passion' and 'prestige' in being a Pilot returns, because these days, it's all about the money... that is, lack of !I wish all fellow Oz pilots best of luck in the present difficult times and hope it improves
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Wrongwayaround,
If only that day was tomorrow... I miss home
I believe there'll be lots to come before that happens, but yes, the day will be rosey and memorable..and heck, I'm still having fun abroad... (staying positive and all that yada yada... )
Best wishes to you mate, and hopefully we can meet sometime in Oz and laugh about this whole thing...
Regards-safe, happy landings
If only that day was tomorrow... I miss home
I believe there'll be lots to come before that happens, but yes, the day will be rosey and memorable..and heck, I'm still having fun abroad... (staying positive and all that yada yada... )Best wishes to you mate, and hopefully we can meet sometime in Oz and laugh about this whole thing...
Regards-safe, happy landings
