What does ATC do that 'irks' you?
Just Binos
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Edited for alcohol-fuelled frustration.
I haven't changed my mind at all but there was no reason to get personal and I apologise for that.
I just have difficulty coming to grips with the belief that, for example, if an instruction is made to line up behind an aircraft on final, it is read back as such and some idiot lines up in front, then saying behind that aircraft line up behind is going to make the blindest bit of difference. What if another idiot does it now? Are we going to have to say line up behind behind I say again behind and then get a readback of that?
The whole question of readbacks has become a massive issue because of the size of the sledgehammer used to crack the original nut and, as usual, it comes down to arse covering.
My apologies once again to the initial controller involved.
I haven't changed my mind at all but there was no reason to get personal and I apologise for that.
I just have difficulty coming to grips with the belief that, for example, if an instruction is made to line up behind an aircraft on final, it is read back as such and some idiot lines up in front, then saying behind that aircraft line up behind is going to make the blindest bit of difference. What if another idiot does it now? Are we going to have to say line up behind behind I say again behind and then get a readback of that?
The whole question of readbacks has become a massive issue because of the size of the sledgehammer used to crack the original nut and, as usual, it comes down to arse covering.
My apologies once again to the initial controller involved.
Last edited by Binoculars; 12th Feb 2007 at 23:14.
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More thought makes me think if ATC assign a level it must be due other traffic or CTA steps so they need a readback to confirm that the pilot has copied it right. If giving leave CTA on descent then there would be no one in the way so who cares if the pilot copied it right! I say no readback required.
Binos
May be time for a Bex and a lay down. I think you may still be a little worked up about what Mr Fiennes is getting and your not!
Regards
Papi
Binos
May be time for a Bex and a lay down. I think you may still be a little worked up about what Mr Fiennes is getting and your not!
Regards
Papi
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Leave CTA descending .... you want a scenario it's required?
If the ATC instruction was misheard by the pilot, there is no cross-confirmation by ATC that the pilot has made an error. Example, ATC has conflicting traffic underneath and for planning asks pilot to report "top of descent", pilots discussing next EBA, both think they heard "leave on descent" and quickly read back callsign only, set the level bug to lowest safe. Frequency chokes up as said aircraft start descent and only after passing the next two levels report descent to ATC.... get the picture? What happens at ATC's end - immediate stand-down of controller(s) involved pending investigation of level bust.
And here's another required readback:
CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH
same reason!
If the ATC instruction was misheard by the pilot, there is no cross-confirmation by ATC that the pilot has made an error. Example, ATC has conflicting traffic underneath and for planning asks pilot to report "top of descent", pilots discussing next EBA, both think they heard "leave on descent" and quickly read back callsign only, set the level bug to lowest safe. Frequency chokes up as said aircraft start descent and only after passing the next two levels report descent to ATC.... get the picture? What happens at ATC's end - immediate stand-down of controller(s) involved pending investigation of level bust.
And here's another required readback:
CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH
same reason!
What does ATC do that irks you?
Give you clearance - that puts you 20 nm from land - in a SINGLE ENGINE aeroplane.
BN Centre: XXX, amended clearance - from present position track via PEWEE, BARIA, UPOLO.
Hey guys! A BE35 only has one engine!
Dr
PS: Can anyone in here get me a good deal on a life raft? I gotta go back to Cairns next week.
BN Centre: XXX, amended clearance - from present position track via PEWEE, BARIA, UPOLO.
Hey guys! A BE35 only has one engine!
Dr
PS: Can anyone in here get me a good deal on a life raft? I gotta go back to Cairns next week.
Tell them you can't accept that. Happened to me once on a night flight, I was radar vectored off the coast over Fremantle in WA, once we started getting a fair way up I piped up with request an easterly heading back over land due no life jackets and they spun us around pretty quick.
Given its an amended clearance I would say something, it might give them a short term headache but I wouldn't want to have to swim that far!
Given its an amended clearance I would say something, it might give them a short term headache but I wouldn't want to have to swim that far!
Hmmmm, self inflating breasts, I'm sold, 
Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
Give you clearance - that puts you 20 nm from land - in a SINGLE ENGINE aeroplane.
BN Centre: XXX, amended clearance - from present position track via PEWEE, BARIA, UPOLO.
Hey guys! A BE35 only has one engine!
BN Centre: XXX, amended clearance - from present position track via PEWEE, BARIA, UPOLO.
Hey guys! A BE35 only has one engine!
Try planning TL IFL UPOLO CS
Not sure what TL App will give you, probably depends on inbounds from SPARO. You only have to ask BN Centre for IFL UPOLO due single engine and you will get it. IFL UPOLO will put you only a couple of miles over water til Cape Grafton. You may get a few more miles over water from there depending on departures from 15. Hope that helps.
Flowed a V Tail yesterday - gave him dct UPOLO, doing 160 Groundspeed in the cruise, on descent he got to 200 - not bad for a single
Awol57
Yes, I realise I could have refused the clearance, but I would argue that they should not have given it to me in the first place.
The details submitted clearly give the type as a BE35. I would have thought people involved with giving clearances would have a knowledge of aircraft types. Yes, I know it is quick and they often call it a Baron, and they did have to ask me to slow down cause I was over taking a Dash 8, but .......
I had flightplanned TL-SPARO-IFL-CS, which is actually in the opposite direction to the airway, in order to stay with in safe gliding distance of land. I don't know why its a uni-direction airway when I can fly TL-IFL direct, and if I plan IFL-CS direct they deal with me without sending me 20 nm out to sea. Why not send me via Biboorah.
I never go to Cairns without a life jacket because I have been sent out to sea before and even the left hand DME arc onto the 15 ILS has you well off the coast. However 20 miles is getting beyond life jacket territory into life raft country.
J430 - now that is just what I need, with selected accessories? ... and NO, I don't mean the little yellow duckie!
Dr
Yes, I realise I could have refused the clearance, but I would argue that they should not have given it to me in the first place.
The details submitted clearly give the type as a BE35. I would have thought people involved with giving clearances would have a knowledge of aircraft types. Yes, I know it is quick and they often call it a Baron, and they did have to ask me to slow down cause I was over taking a Dash 8, but .......
I had flightplanned TL-SPARO-IFL-CS, which is actually in the opposite direction to the airway, in order to stay with in safe gliding distance of land. I don't know why its a uni-direction airway when I can fly TL-IFL direct, and if I plan IFL-CS direct they deal with me without sending me 20 nm out to sea. Why not send me via Biboorah.
I never go to Cairns without a life jacket because I have been sent out to sea before and even the left hand DME arc onto the 15 ILS has you well off the coast. However 20 miles is getting beyond life jacket territory into life raft country.
J430 - now that is just what I need, with selected accessories? ... and NO, I don't mean the little yellow duckie!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 27th Apr 2007 at 04:03.
Topdrop
"Flowed a V Tail yesterday - gave him dct UPOLO, doing 160 Groundspeed in the cruise, on descent he got to 200 - not bad for a single"
I suspect that had to be me. I was well out to sea on track to BARIA when given "track direct to UPOLO".
Yes, it (V35B) does go a bit, doesn't it! I had it on 2300/21" indicating 160 (top of the green) down hill.
Cheers
Dr
PS: Why can't I just plan TL-IFL-CS and then at IFL be given the Upolo One Arrival and "track present position direct Upolo"?
"Flowed a V Tail yesterday - gave him dct UPOLO, doing 160 Groundspeed in the cruise, on descent he got to 200 - not bad for a single"
I suspect that had to be me. I was well out to sea on track to BARIA when given "track direct to UPOLO".
Yes, it (V35B) does go a bit, doesn't it! I had it on 2300/21" indicating 160 (top of the green) down hill.
Cheers
Dr
PS: Why can't I just plan TL-IFL-CS and then at IFL be given the Upolo One Arrival and "track present position direct Upolo"?
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 27th Apr 2007 at 04:02.
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FTDK,
I understand what you are saying. However, I believe it is up to the pilot in command to refuse a clearance which either he deems unsafe or outside the legal operation of the aircraft. Would you accept speed control that was 10kts faster than VNE or slower than stall speed? Pipe up and say "unable".
If I remember correctly, you have to be within gliding distance of land in a single??? Although I could probably give a pretty rough guess, I'd be hard pressed to do the maths for every type of single in Oz including allowances for wind etc. If you can't do it, say no. Please.
Cheers,
NFR.
I understand what you are saying. However, I believe it is up to the pilot in command to refuse a clearance which either he deems unsafe or outside the legal operation of the aircraft. Would you accept speed control that was 10kts faster than VNE or slower than stall speed? Pipe up and say "unable".
If I remember correctly, you have to be within gliding distance of land in a single??? Although I could probably give a pretty rough guess, I'd be hard pressed to do the maths for every type of single in Oz including allowances for wind etc. If you can't do it, say no. Please.
Cheers,
NFR.
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FTDK,
Not familiar with the reporting point, but I gather it's 20NM or so off shore? Yep, maybe there aren't too many that can glide that distance. Maybe there are a few? Which ones? Which ones have a raft? So many questions. Yep, granted the clearance may not have been great, but it is still ultimately the pilot in command's responsibility to reject it if it is unsafe. Not having a go, but as ATC that is what I would expect from pilots I am talking to.
Cheers,
NFR.
Not familiar with the reporting point, but I gather it's 20NM or so off shore? Yep, maybe there aren't too many that can glide that distance. Maybe there are a few? Which ones? Which ones have a raft? So many questions. Yep, granted the clearance may not have been great, but it is still ultimately the pilot in command's responsibility to reject it if it is unsafe. Not having a go, but as ATC that is what I would expect from pilots I am talking to.
Cheers,
NFR.
Last edited by No Further Requirements; 27th Apr 2007 at 06:05. Reason: spellin'
........But I can!
NFR
You are indeed correct, but I have dealt with ATC into Cairns before. I was in a hurry and did not want to make life difficult for myself.
If I had "bounced" the clearance, past experience would suggest that I would have been slowed down to maybe 100 kts and/or vectored all over the sky.
So just stuck the EPIRB in my pocket and clutched the life jacket to my bossum and charged on!
Mind you, I spent 2 hours directing traffic around a truck broken down about half way up the Gilles range and as a result had to fly back to TL in the dark. I suspect the risk involved in flying at night in a single enroute CS to TL is greater than being 20 miles out to sea.
Maybe its all in the mind really, isn't it. On the one hand I question being sent 20 miles out to sea, but on the other hand think nothing of launching into IMC for a couple of hours.
Dr
You are indeed correct, but I have dealt with ATC into Cairns before. I was in a hurry and did not want to make life difficult for myself.
If I had "bounced" the clearance, past experience would suggest that I would have been slowed down to maybe 100 kts and/or vectored all over the sky.
So just stuck the EPIRB in my pocket and clutched the life jacket to my bossum and charged on!
Mind you, I spent 2 hours directing traffic around a truck broken down about half way up the Gilles range and as a result had to fly back to TL in the dark. I suspect the risk involved in flying at night in a single enroute CS to TL is greater than being 20 miles out to sea.
Maybe its all in the mind really, isn't it. On the one hand I question being sent 20 miles out to sea, but on the other hand think nothing of launching into IMC for a couple of hours.
Dr
Cleared Visual Approach
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FTDK: I understand what you are saying and agree. 'Tis a tricky one which should be considered ob both sides of the microphone. ATC doensn't know everything, but common sense should be used by both parties.
Jenna: The readback for visual approach changed in June 2006. AIP GEN 3.4-12 para 4.4.1 'Readback requirements' subpara e. states "Any approach clearance". Don't have a Jepps reference, sorry. There's no grey area in that now - all approach clearances are to be read back.
Cheers
NFR.
Jenna: The readback for visual approach changed in June 2006. AIP GEN 3.4-12 para 4.4.1 'Readback requirements' subpara e. states "Any approach clearance". Don't have a Jepps reference, sorry. There's no grey area in that now - all approach clearances are to be read back.
Cheers
NFR.