What does ATC do that 'irks' you?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
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But what about ground handling???
It seems that in Australia the tower controllers have a "park brake light indicator".
In other words, whenever they line you up (with nobody in sight or on TCAS), after a protracted period of waiting as soon as the park brake is set you are cleared for take-off without fail!
Maybe I'm just suspicious or the boys in the tower have a sense of humour!
In the air my favourite is Brisbane Centre.
On SYD-BNE sectors you may be 80 track miles to run to CG and the controllers ask you to reduce speed in order to lose about 8 minutes over an 80 mile distance!!!!
Do the math fellas!
My favourite is coming straight back at them telling them "unable, what are your intentions?"
The reply."oh.....standby"
It seems that in Australia the tower controllers have a "park brake light indicator".
In other words, whenever they line you up (with nobody in sight or on TCAS), after a protracted period of waiting as soon as the park brake is set you are cleared for take-off without fail!
Maybe I'm just suspicious or the boys in the tower have a sense of humour!
In the air my favourite is Brisbane Centre.
On SYD-BNE sectors you may be 80 track miles to run to CG and the controllers ask you to reduce speed in order to lose about 8 minutes over an 80 mile distance!!!!
Do the math fellas!
My favourite is coming straight back at them telling them "unable, what are your intentions?"
The reply."oh.....standby"
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Way North
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While on decent in CTA and you are cleared say 7000, atc
give you a clearance " from 30 dme decend to 3000 "
for exaple. We dont have any where to put the next cleared level.
We leave 7000 so the A/C wont decend below the cleared level
and then have to remember 3000' or write it down.In a busy part of the flight.
This then gives rise to confusion ie was it 50 d decend to 3000'
This then requires us to recheck cleared level. Using up radio time.
It also leves the CTA step clearnce in the lap of the crew. Instead of being a joint concern.
Thanks Big D
give you a clearance " from 30 dme decend to 3000 "
for exaple. We dont have any where to put the next cleared level.
We leave 7000 so the A/C wont decend below the cleared level
and then have to remember 3000' or write it down.In a busy part of the flight.
This then gives rise to confusion ie was it 50 d decend to 3000'
This then requires us to recheck cleared level. Using up radio time.
It also leves the CTA step clearnce in the lap of the crew. Instead of being a joint concern.
Thanks Big D
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Big Dog 2,
In a radar environment that scenario (normally) should not happen - most controllers these days realise there is no way of 'programming' conditional ALT/FL on to the MCP - hey, some time for famil flights might help those who still don't.
In a non-radar environment, naturally it has to happen as there is no other way of knowing unless ATC ask for reports every minute or two.
I know that some (french) aircrarft just love to ride the steps and are always pushing for lower - I think that has lead to conditional altitudes being used - personally I prefer to issue an expectation - if I get busy with other things I will then get reminded.
There are still some times when it is needed however. e.g. descend 2000, when established in the circling area cleared VSA - what would you put in the cleared altitude in that case out of interest?
In a radar environment that scenario (normally) should not happen - most controllers these days realise there is no way of 'programming' conditional ALT/FL on to the MCP - hey, some time for famil flights might help those who still don't.
In a non-radar environment, naturally it has to happen as there is no other way of knowing unless ATC ask for reports every minute or two.
I know that some (french) aircrarft just love to ride the steps and are always pushing for lower - I think that has lead to conditional altitudes being used - personally I prefer to issue an expectation - if I get busy with other things I will then get reminded.
There are still some times when it is needed however. e.g. descend 2000, when established in the circling area cleared VSA - what would you put in the cleared altitude in that case out of interest?
I asked the skipper to call 'visual 34R' in sight recently (downwind on a Rivet in serious 8/8 blue all the way to FL670). He said he wouldn't because it was now behind us and he couldn't see it and therefore it wasn't in sight! 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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CFI,
A quickcall to the offending tower by phone could possibly solve future irksome "clearance not available" situations. Or maybe you could ask the controller how long for the delay and come back later in the flight, or maybe you could ring the tower before the flight and check on delays into CTA prior to taxying?
Just a thought.
A quickcall to the offending tower by phone could possibly solve future irksome "clearance not available" situations. Or maybe you could ask the controller how long for the delay and come back later in the flight, or maybe you could ring the tower before the flight and check on delays into CTA prior to taxying?
Just a thought.
Nunc est bibendum
Geez Fathom it was CAVOK and we were a little wider than normal. Every skipper I've flown with on the 767 never had a drama with it. Most other skippers on the 744 have done it too. Years ago I was chided by a Captain for being too conservative for applying that logic in the same circumstances. After saying that I didn't think I could comply with the requirements we went back into the books to check what the wording was. The result on this day was an extra 10 track miles by my reckoning. So much for fuel conservation! 
PS: You can take your patronising tone and shove that too!
PS: You can take your patronising tone and shove that too!
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Communication is the name of the game!
If you are going to be screwed about for whatever reason it only takes a few words to let you know why, and increase your SA. Doing so, certainly keeps the blood pressure down in the cockpit.
On the other hand I know of some good controllers that try and keep the customers in the loop that have been castigated at checks for providing too much info!! (er - not following sops) geez!! (try changing the sops I say!!)
In this business such info is better to have than not have.
If you are going to be screwed about for whatever reason it only takes a few words to let you know why, and increase your SA. Doing so, certainly keeps the blood pressure down in the cockpit.
On the other hand I know of some good controllers that try and keep the customers in the loop that have been castigated at checks for providing too much info!! (er - not following sops) geez!! (try changing the sops I say!!)
In this business such info is better to have than not have.
Join Date: May 2003
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Traffic... this was the post from zkdli that I was responding to:
"We used to get complaints when Stansted went from a sleepy hollow to one of the busiest airports. I think it was because everyone thought that they could do what they had always done when the traffic wasn't so busy."
Are you suggesting that this doesn't apply to Perth?
"We used to get complaints when Stansted went from a sleepy hollow to one of the busiest airports. I think it was because everyone thought that they could do what they had always done when the traffic wasn't so busy."
Are you suggesting that this doesn't apply to Perth?
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Australia
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Thanks DirtyPierre
Thats exactly the attitude within atc I wanted to point out
A: your in a "bug smasher" so your not important enough to recieve any service
and B: we have more important things to do
For the record On the day in question I did have a plan in the system.
Thats exactly the attitude within atc I wanted to point out
A: your in a "bug smasher" so your not important enough to recieve any service
and B: we have more important things to do
For the record On the day in question I did have a plan in the system.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I'm not a controller, so don't know their reasons for not issuing clearances (even though the flight plan has been in the system for hours)
How long your FPL has been in the system doesn't mean anything - that applies whether you are a light twin doing training or a 747. Remember, ATC don't delay aircraft - other aircraft delay aircraft.
The basic rules are - first to use the airspace gets it, unless there is priority traffic (see AIP for Assessment of priorities), or (lastly)
an aircraft can be delayed where significant economic benefit can be achieved by avoiding delay to other aircraft
(or however it is phrased these days).
Thats basically it. No favourites played - because we dont have any. But hey, if an airline wanted to start providing cheap flights I am sure we could come to an arrangement! (just kidding - no airline will provide cheap flights to us
)
Pardoned PPRuNer
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Quokka - what I am saying is.
Comparing Perth Airport to Stanstead Airport is like comparing the City of London to the City of Sydney.
You cant.
Saying that the awakening of the sleeping movement beast that is Perth is the same as Stanstead is a little bit of a long bow to draw.......I would be interested to see what sort if increase there has been - but not so much I can be bothered doing the figures for that.
EGSS 2005
Movements TTL = 179,845
Pax = 21,991,733
YPPH 2005/2006
Movements = 55,882
Pax = 7,134,880
(12months)
Source http://www.perthairport.com/Default.aspx?MenuID=116#148
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...K_Airports.pdf
TT
Comparing Perth Airport to Stanstead Airport is like comparing the City of London to the City of Sydney.
You cant.
Saying that the awakening of the sleeping movement beast that is Perth is the same as Stanstead is a little bit of a long bow to draw.......I would be interested to see what sort if increase there has been - but not so much I can be bothered doing the figures for that.
EGSS 2005
Movements TTL = 179,845
Pax = 21,991,733
YPPH 2005/2006
Movements = 55,882
Pax = 7,134,880
(12months)
Source http://www.perthairport.com/Default.aspx?MenuID=116#148
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...K_Airports.pdf
TT
Nunc est bibendum
Strewth Traffic, he's not comparing PH to Stanstead in terms of movements, he's talking about the situation of an airport going from a sleepy hollow to busy and people not being used to it and struggling to adapt!
It's a similar situation in terms of increasing movements over a short period of time and definitely NOT a direct comparison of movements. He could have used any other airport on the planet whose movements had sky rocketed but someone had already thought up Stanstead.
Clear as mud?
It's a similar situation in terms of increasing movements over a short period of time and definitely NOT a direct comparison of movements. He could have used any other airport on the planet whose movements had sky rocketed but someone had already thought up Stanstead.
Clear as mud?
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Tiny Tim, your imagination is as high as the falsetto voiced ukele player that assaulted our senses many years ago. Whilst I haven't worked in ATC in Australia for many a long year, I reckon I cough up some 20 odd legs (as a pax) a year, either domestically, or internationaly and it is my experience, that as soon as the runway becomes available, then we are on our uninterrupted way. After all you do use the rather strong suggestion "without fail". Anyway, what has your "nobody in sight or nothing on the TCAS" got to do with it. I work an environment where there are many different aspects that can cause delays, that me (with the big picture) and you (with only a very localised idea of what is going on) will ever get to share.
To try and suggest and expect people to seriously accept your pronouncements on losing 8 minutes in 80 miles...well pull the other one. It may have happened once (in error..training maybe??) but to suggest that this is a regular occurence....
As for your "oh...standby" I get stacks of those every day, but the other way round: "ABC 123, can you get the ground crew to push you a little further back?" "Standby". "ABC123 are you able to reach FL 9600metres by SIERA?" "STANDBY"...should I go on?
I realise that this thread was started to allow people to get the wood off their chests and at times individuals have a reasonable axe to grind, and lot's of good stuff has been discussed. I would imagine that any half useful controller would easily be able to deal with your "Unable..advise intentions?", and to then reply "my intentions are....." I think it's called "My Ace beats your King".
To try and suggest and expect people to seriously accept your pronouncements on losing 8 minutes in 80 miles...well pull the other one. It may have happened once (in error..training maybe??) but to suggest that this is a regular occurence....
As for your "oh...standby" I get stacks of those every day, but the other way round: "ABC 123, can you get the ground crew to push you a little further back?" "Standby". "ABC123 are you able to reach FL 9600metres by SIERA?" "STANDBY"...should I go on?
I realise that this thread was started to allow people to get the wood off their chests and at times individuals have a reasonable axe to grind, and lot's of good stuff has been discussed. I would imagine that any half useful controller would easily be able to deal with your "Unable..advise intentions?", and to then reply "my intentions are....." I think it's called "My Ace beats your King".
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Timmeeee,
That is not so challenging to an experienced ATC. Responses to “unable, what are your intentions” can be easily and quickly answered with:
Continue current speed, hold at CG, maintain the outbound leg til advised, when ready descend to FL150, requirement reach FL150 by turning outbound.
Most ATCs’ practice this for responses such as yours.
That is not so challenging to an experienced ATC. Responses to “unable, what are your intentions” can be easily and quickly answered with:
Continue current speed, hold at CG, maintain the outbound leg til advised, when ready descend to FL150, requirement reach FL150 by turning outbound.
Most ATCs’ practice this for responses such as yours.
ATC is usually good but most annoyig thing is the chatter that comes over the frequency from inside the radar room, and quite often its people socialising. Sometimes, its so loud its hard to hear the contoller.
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Sounds like the "trainer" or "familer" were live in the B side for them to drown out the ATC.
I have had to tell people around me to shut up every so often. Reminds me of the You tube video from Scotish ATC...
I have had to tell people around me to shut up every so often. Reminds me of the You tube video from Scotish ATC...
