Cheapest 4 seater Single for Hire in Melbourne?
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Oh I see - silly me! You think that your average GA hirer should throw away their 20yo, fully written-down hunk of junk and buy you a brand new SR20 for $500k and NOT charge you anything for the cost of capital tied up in that plane? Jeez I amaze myself with my stupitidy sometimes.
You know what happens in industry when the costs are to prohibative-they look for alternatives!! This puts downward pressure on the prices. Yet avaiation just seems to accept it and go ahh well. Its crazy!!! Just try to imagine how many pilots there are there such as my self who have stopped flying due to the cost. Imagine also how big avaition would be if costs wernt such a factor-economy of scale!!!!
I do at least agree with you that GA has a terminal disease BUT 'blind freddy' will point out that this is because GA doesn't charge the true cost of the operation.
As for pretending that GA is good value? Who/where/when ever tried to pronounce that HIRING aircraft to fly GA was good value? Remember the old adage "There's only one way to make a small fortune in aviation...."
UTR.
As for pretending that GA is good value? Who/where/when ever tried to pronounce that HIRING aircraft to fly GA was good value? Remember the old adage "There's only one way to make a small fortune in aviation...."
UTR.
As for when GA has been pronounced as good value...ahhh try reading this thread-has already been mentioned twice!!!
Ever heard of a little theory called supply and demand?
Cessna don't churn out 100,000 172's every year like a holden commodore. Have any idea how much R&D goes into even light aircraft?
new-build 172's aren't exactly in the dark ages anymore either. Have you actually flown a 172R/S?
Cessna don't churn out 100,000 172's every year like a holden commodore. Have any idea how much R&D goes into even light aircraft?
new-build 172's aren't exactly in the dark ages anymore either. Have you actually flown a 172R/S?
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Ever heard of a little theory called supply and demand?
Cessna don't churn out 100,000 172's every year like a holden commodore. Have any idea how much R&D goes into even light aircraft?
new-build 172's aren't exactly in the dark ages anymore either. Have you actually flown a 172R/S?
Cessna don't churn out 100,000 172's every year like a holden commodore. Have any idea how much R&D goes into even light aircraft?
new-build 172's aren't exactly in the dark ages anymore either. Have you actually flown a 172R/S?
Please......yeah I can clearly see how much R&D has gone into a modern 172
I can hardley tell it appart from the original version!!! Makes the development of the Holden Commodore look painstakingly slow huh 
See I can understand why Ferari demand such a high price-no they dont churn out 100,000 cars a year, but what they do churn out is of optimal quality. You just keep going on though thinking that every thing is o.k and what you are paying is fair
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CDP, AN-120 and others.
Get used to it. Things go up in price. A New HQ Holden in 1974 was around $6000 with V8 engine and automatic transmission. The comparable new VE commodore such as the SS is $45000, and built with relatively unskilled labour and globally 6 million cars are built each year. That's what's happened in regard to cars in the last 32 years. With aviation now, less VH registerable aircraft are produced than 32 years ago, with comparatively little advancement in technology. My 1979 A36 was built only 5 years after the HQ Holden, but (Glass cockpit aside) not much differant to a new G36 manufactured today. But then, as now EVERYTHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT IS EXPENSIVE. Fuel, Insurance, maintenance,airways/landing charges charges and engine/prop replacement provision have probably only increased by the same increments as the CPI. If you want to go for a fly around for an hour on the week-end because you like flying for entertainment, you must pay the price that the market demands. If you think that Hawaii is better value entertainment (as I would), then go to Hawaii and forget about flying. I can assure you that very few peolple who own light aircraft actually make a profit from them. Nearly all owners have a disposable income that allows them the luxury of aircraft ownership, and fortunately for GA some allow them to be crosshired with flying schools to offset some of the running costs.
Get used to it. Things go up in price. A New HQ Holden in 1974 was around $6000 with V8 engine and automatic transmission. The comparable new VE commodore such as the SS is $45000, and built with relatively unskilled labour and globally 6 million cars are built each year. That's what's happened in regard to cars in the last 32 years. With aviation now, less VH registerable aircraft are produced than 32 years ago, with comparatively little advancement in technology. My 1979 A36 was built only 5 years after the HQ Holden, but (Glass cockpit aside) not much differant to a new G36 manufactured today. But then, as now EVERYTHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT IS EXPENSIVE. Fuel, Insurance, maintenance,airways/landing charges charges and engine/prop replacement provision have probably only increased by the same increments as the CPI. If you want to go for a fly around for an hour on the week-end because you like flying for entertainment, you must pay the price that the market demands. If you think that Hawaii is better value entertainment (as I would), then go to Hawaii and forget about flying. I can assure you that very few peolple who own light aircraft actually make a profit from them. Nearly all owners have a disposable income that allows them the luxury of aircraft ownership, and fortunately for GA some allow them to be crosshired with flying schools to offset some of the running costs.
chicksdigpilots
OK I am going to give you a little lesson in Economics 101. Firstly, supply and demand dictates the price of a product, not your fancy pie in the sky wish for what it should cost. The cost of producing an aircraft is also influenced by the total number of units produced. The development cost of a Cirrus for example needs to be spread over the production life of that aircraft. Compared to motor vehicles, the production run for an aircraft is miniscule but the development cost are substantially more. These cost need to be recouped in each aircraft that is produced. Lastly, unlike motor vehicles, aircraft are extremely labour intensive to build. This labour cost also needs to be past on to the purchaser. Finally the cost of financing a brand new Cirrus needs to be past on to the hirer. The cost of financing a new AUD$500,000.00 Cirrus is substantially more than the cost of financing a second hand AUD$80,000.00 C172. The older C172 though looses out in the substantially higher maintenance costs than its newer cousin. Finally you can’t just go down to your auto shop and get spare parts for your Cirrus or C172. You must purchase the parts from an authorised aircraft spare parts dealer and they aren’t cheap.
If you really want to see what it costs to keep an aircraft on line at your local aero club, maybe you should go out and buy one. Then and only then will you realise that the costs being charged are in line with the costs of actually putting that aircraft online in the first place.
Lastly may I suggest if you want to go and fly an ultra light then go and do it. They are cheaper to hire for a reason. You can not compare the hire cost of and ultra light with a GA aircraft. You are trying to compare apples and oranges and it just doesn’t work.
No one has said the price is fare. The reality is that is what it costs to give you the aircraft on line at the aero club. If you don’t like it then spend you money somewhere else. It’s that simple. Your logic I’m afraid is flawed. I suggest if you can’t afford $200.00 and hour for an aircraft, then GA isn’t for you. Just like it has never been for most of the population.
OK I am going to give you a little lesson in Economics 101. Firstly, supply and demand dictates the price of a product, not your fancy pie in the sky wish for what it should cost. The cost of producing an aircraft is also influenced by the total number of units produced. The development cost of a Cirrus for example needs to be spread over the production life of that aircraft. Compared to motor vehicles, the production run for an aircraft is miniscule but the development cost are substantially more. These cost need to be recouped in each aircraft that is produced. Lastly, unlike motor vehicles, aircraft are extremely labour intensive to build. This labour cost also needs to be past on to the purchaser. Finally the cost of financing a brand new Cirrus needs to be past on to the hirer. The cost of financing a new AUD$500,000.00 Cirrus is substantially more than the cost of financing a second hand AUD$80,000.00 C172. The older C172 though looses out in the substantially higher maintenance costs than its newer cousin. Finally you can’t just go down to your auto shop and get spare parts for your Cirrus or C172. You must purchase the parts from an authorised aircraft spare parts dealer and they aren’t cheap.
If you really want to see what it costs to keep an aircraft on line at your local aero club, maybe you should go out and buy one. Then and only then will you realise that the costs being charged are in line with the costs of actually putting that aircraft online in the first place.
Lastly may I suggest if you want to go and fly an ultra light then go and do it. They are cheaper to hire for a reason. You can not compare the hire cost of and ultra light with a GA aircraft. You are trying to compare apples and oranges and it just doesn’t work.
No one has said the price is fare. The reality is that is what it costs to give you the aircraft on line at the aero club. If you don’t like it then spend you money somewhere else. It’s that simple. Your logic I’m afraid is flawed. I suggest if you can’t afford $200.00 and hour for an aircraft, then GA isn’t for you. Just like it has never been for most of the population.
What is the "real" increase in GA A/C hire in the last 30 years? Has it gone up that much when compared to average incomes? I'm sure it's gone up but is it that much more "unaffordable"? Interesting question someone smarter than me may be able to answer.
chickdigpilots. please us a spell checker before posting
Hawaii has 2 i's
Ferrari has 2 r's
prohibitive not prohibative
Hangar not hangar
etc etc etc
And your gramma leaves a lot to be desired!!
if you wish to give some credence to your "humble opinion" then at the very least could you learn to spell and write correctly? Otherwise you come across an un-educated nitwit, even if you aren't one. which I'm sure you're not.
chickdigpilots. please us a spell checker before posting
Hawaii has 2 i's
Ferrari has 2 r's
prohibitive not prohibative
Hangar not hangar
etc etc etc
And your gramma leaves a lot to be desired!!
My dealingas with aviation have shown it to be an amazingly unprofesional industry run by incompetants with a passion for flying but no idea about how to run businesses. But thats just my humble opinion...
Where does all the money go?
The answer is Lawyers!
Public Liability insurance would have to be the single biggest cost to any manufacturer of aircraft or aero engines. Possibly up to 1/3 of the price of new products is set aside for such future claims.
Joint and several liability would have to be the largest impediment to development within GA. None of the big companies who supply components to the auto industry will have a bar of aircraft, simply because they become prime candidates for civil liability cases even though they might just manufacture some widget that keeps the door closed. The risk to the rest of their business just isn't worth it for them.
This tends to relegate all aviation-related manufacturers to being 'pseudo-back-yard' industries just to keep the predatory legal profession at bay. It is why there is so little commonality between the automotive industry and the light aviation industry, even though there should be massive synergies.
It's a sad fact, but hard to work around.
A
Public Liability insurance would have to be the single biggest cost to any manufacturer of aircraft or aero engines. Possibly up to 1/3 of the price of new products is set aside for such future claims.
Joint and several liability would have to be the largest impediment to development within GA. None of the big companies who supply components to the auto industry will have a bar of aircraft, simply because they become prime candidates for civil liability cases even though they might just manufacture some widget that keeps the door closed. The risk to the rest of their business just isn't worth it for them.
This tends to relegate all aviation-related manufacturers to being 'pseudo-back-yard' industries just to keep the predatory legal profession at bay. It is why there is so little commonality between the automotive industry and the light aviation industry, even though there should be massive synergies.
It's a sad fact, but hard to work around.
A
When you live....
READ my post again and see that I was talking about the value of HIRING an aircraft.
UTR.
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What is the "real" increase in GA A/C hire in the last 30 years? Has it gone up that much when compared to average incomes? I'm sure it's gone up but is it that much more "unaffordable"?
I learnt to fly in 1973.
A new PA28 cost $25/h wet to private hire.
A Holden Monaro was about $6000
I was getting paid $8,500/yr as a new graduate
Nice new 4 bedroom house in western suburbs of Brisbane was about $60k
In 2006
New Warrior is about $180/hr (see above)
New SV8Commodore is $48k?
New graduate gets about $45k
Nice new 4 bedroom house in western suburbs of Brisbane is $500k ????
So,
Warrior PH - up x7
Holden - up x 8
New graduate salary - up x 5.5
New house - up x 10
R
I learnt to fly in 1973.
A new PA28 cost $25/h wet to private hire.
A Holden Monaro was about $6000
I was getting paid $8,500/yr as a new graduate
Nice new 4 bedroom house in western suburbs of Brisbane was about $60k
In 2006
New Warrior is about $180/hr (see above)
New SV8Commodore is $48k?
New graduate gets about $45k
Nice new 4 bedroom house in western suburbs of Brisbane is $500k ????
So,
Warrior PH - up x7
Holden - up x 8
New graduate salary - up x 5.5
New house - up x 10
R
Last edited by Ratshit; 18th Oct 2006 at 21:59. Reason: Messed up the quote!
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For cheap flying perhaps go and fly an almost brand new J160 Jabiru at Tooradin solo for only $115 a hour wet. 105 knots, 15 litres an hour, 8 hours duration, ample room, EFIS and great performance. Or for 4 seats, a 172 there for $147. I checked, it's all on their website.
To answer your question, I would say that these are the cheapest aircraft in Melbourne.
To answer your question, I would say that these are the cheapest aircraft in Melbourne.
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As with most theories things are never as clean cut as simply saying some thing costs x becasue of supply and demand, and if you have even studdied this theory you would know that equilibrium can only ever be reached IN THEORY. You would also be familiar with the law of demand that states the higher the price of a good the lower the demand, and oligopoly where only a few firms that make up the industry have control over the price and have high barriers to entry (hmmm sounds familiar??)Perhaps you would also be familiar with the concept of economies of scale? Typically as the number of goods being produced increases a company will achieve increases in efficiency which lowers the avergae cost per unit. This is because the fixed costs are shared over a greater number of goods.
The cost of producing an aircraft is also influenced by the total number of units produced. The development cost of a Cirrus for example needs to be spread over the production life of that aircraft. Compared to motor vehicles, the production run for an aircraft is miniscule but the development cost are substantially more. These cost need to be recouped in each aircraft that is produced.
Lastly, unlike motor vehicles, aircraft are extremely labour intensive to build. This labour cost also needs to be past on to the purchaser. Finally the cost of financing a brand new Cirrus needs to be past on to the hirer. The cost of financing a new AUD$500,000.00 Cirrus is substantially more than the cost of financing a second hand AUD$80,000.00 C172.
If you really want to see what it costs to keep an aircraft on line at your local aero club, maybe you should go out and buy one. Then and only then will you realise that the costs being charged are in line with the costs of actually putting that aircraft online in the first place.
No one has said the price is fare. The reality is that is what it costs to give you the aircraft on line at the aero club. If you don’t like it then spend you money somewhere else. It’s that simple. Your logic I’m afraid is flawed. I suggest if you can’t afford $200.00 and hour for an aircraft, then GA isn’t for you. Just like it has never been for most of the population.
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please us a spell checker before posting
Hawaii has 2 i's
Ferrari has 2 r's
prohibitive not prohibative
Hangar not hangar
etc etc etc
And your gramma leaves a lot to be desired!!
if you wish to give some credence to your "humble opinion" then at the very least could you learn to spell and write correctly? Otherwise you come across an un-educated nitwit, even if you aren't one. which I'm sure you're not.
Hawaii has 2 i's
Ferrari has 2 r's
prohibitive not prohibative
Hangar not hangar
etc etc etc
And your gramma leaves a lot to be desired!!
if you wish to give some credence to your "humble opinion" then at the very least could you learn to spell and write correctly? Otherwise you come across an un-educated nitwit, even if you aren't one. which I'm sure you're not.
I have more imporatant things to do than worry about my spelling and find it amusing that you should even care? I thought this was a place to discuss ideas and opinions? not a place were I was subitting an essay to be marked on spelling and 'gramma' lol But thats o.k, I hope you ego feels a little better for pointing it out to me, I know Im sure going to sleep better now
Last edited by chicksdigpilots; 19th Oct 2006 at 00:11.
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chicksdigpilots
Firstly I suggest you have a look at my profile. I am more than qualified to know what I am talking about when it comes to economics and all things involving accounting. I do as many here do have qualifications outside being a pilot.
You have just beautify described one of the laws of “Supply and Demand”. Thank you. Yes monopolies and oligopolies do have an influence on the supply and demand curve but the rule of supply and demand still applies. It has an effect on the price you pay for an hour in a C172 or Cirrus or what ever not because aircraft owners or flying schools are monopolies but because airports in capital cities are, so is the Air Service Provider ASA and the Aviation regulator CASA. Fuel companies, spare parts companies and insurance companies may as well be as they act like one because of their dominance in the market.
Yes I am and I mentioned it in my previous post.
Yes and no. The C172 you can buy off Cessna today isn’t the same C172 you could buy in 50’s, 60’s or even the 80’s for that matter. So yes there are developmental costs and the costs of setting up a new factory when production restarted in the late 90’s.
Do you have any idea why production in light aircraft almost stopped in the USA in the mid 80’s? Product liability. People were suing Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft etc for accidents in aircraft built in the 50’s and 60’s. They were suing them for accidents simply because they built the aircraft in the first place and if they hadn’t, no one would have been hurt. In the late 90’s the US passed a law limiting the liability the manufacturers could face but the damage was done. The insurance premiums that all US aircraft manufacturers now have to pay is so high that it comprises up to 50% of the cost of a new aircraft off the production floor. As for why a second hand C172 can sell for $80,000.00? Why do you think? Maybe it is “SUPPLY & DEMAND” just like anything else. If people weren’t prepared to pay that much the price would fall. It is as simple as that. The market determines the price.
In a lot of cases they have i.e. composites etc, but it will never be like car production if that is what you are alluding to simply because of economies of scale.
And people here have tried to explain why the cost of hiring an aircraft is what it is. To then through a hissy fit and say that aircraft operators are “unprofessional” and should get in the “real world” only throughs fuel on the fire. All the aircraft owners and operators I know would love to be able to reduce the costs of running an aircraft and where they can they do. You have offered no one a way that is feasible and practical to reduce the costs of running an aircraft. All you have done is come on here because you had a gripe. At the end of the day if the price is too high, and I agree it is, the market will ultimately determine what the price should be. Your voting with your feet is just one cog in the wheel.
Firstly I suggest you have a look at my profile. I am more than qualified to know what I am talking about when it comes to economics and all things involving accounting. I do as many here do have qualifications outside being a pilot.
You would also be familiar with the law of demand that states the higher the price of a good the lower the demand, and oligopoly where only a few firms that make up the industry have control over the price and have high barriers to entry (hmmm sounds familiar??)
Perhaps you would also be familiar with the concept of economies of scale? Typically as the number of goods being produced increases a company will achieve increases in efficiency which lowers the avergae cost per unit. This is because the fixed costs are shared over a greater number of goods.
Exactly!! Im glad you raised this point-so what you are trying to justify is that a 172 had such phenominal development costs that these are still being recouped 60 years after it was designed??
Again you have raised my point again-I can understand some development costs being passed on for a new design such as a Cirrus even though $500k is a joke, but can someone please explain how on earth a 172 shouldnt be selling for under $80k brand new?
o.k aircraft may be labour intensive to build-well again maybe its time the aviation industry caught up with the rest of the world with their design and manufacturing processes?
What I have tried to discuss though is why is this the case? Is it because of the typical attitude displayed in this thread that every time someone questions the price and asks for justification they are shot down? SHouldnt avaition as a whole also be disgusted with the current state of affairs and aslo be complaining and looking for ways to be operating at profit margins more in touch withthe real world? It seems there is no competition in aviation and everyone just seems to accept the current state of affairs and bend over and ask for more!!
Damn..........let that slip through.
Still,,,,,,,,,I think you could use a spell checker too.
And I don't agree with the tone of your posts either. As pointed out by Rat**** the actual cost of flying hasn't gone up more than anything else.
grammar
grammar
grammar
grammar
maybe I meant grandma?
Still,,,,,,,,,I think you could use a spell checker too.
And I don't agree with the tone of your posts either. As pointed out by Rat**** the actual cost of flying hasn't gone up more than anything else.
grammar
grammar
grammar
grammar
maybe I meant grandma?
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chicksdigpilots
And people here have tried to explain why the cost of hiring an aircraft is what it is. To then through a hissy fit and say that aircraft operators are “unprofessional” and should get in the “real world” only throughs fuel on the fire. All the aircraft owners and operators I know would love to be able to reduce the costs of running an aircraft and where they can they do. You have offered no one a way that is feasible and practical to reduce the costs of running an aircraft. All you have done is come on here because you had a gripe. At the end of the day if the price is too high, and I agree it is, the market will ultimately determine what the price should be. Your voting with your feet is just one cog in the wheel.
And people here have tried to explain why the cost of hiring an aircraft is what it is. To then through a hissy fit and say that aircraft operators are “unprofessional” and should get in the “real world” only throughs fuel on the fire. All the aircraft owners and operators I know would love to be able to reduce the costs of running an aircraft and where they can they do. You have offered no one a way that is feasible and practical to reduce the costs of running an aircraft. All you have done is come on here because you had a gripe. At the end of the day if the price is too high, and I agree it is, the market will ultimately determine what the price should be. Your voting with your feet is just one cog in the wheel.
I clearly understand why the cost of hiring an aircraft is what it is-I have never disputed that. What I have disputed though is how the avaition industry is forced to just accept it due to factors as you have already described. Basically what I have been trying to allued to is that it is about time that the aviation industry acted as ONE (now I know this is near to impossible, hard enough even getting a union but thats another topic hey..) Why should we accept rediculous fees for things such as medicals, theory exams, landing fees, airspace charges etc-all these add up and everyone just accepts it!! Why-becuase the industry is in the grip of a monoploy in some parts and oligopoly in others, and this just isnt conducive to a competitive, efficient and affordable industry.
Every one has gone against me giving me reasons 'why', what I have been arguing is 'why not'. Why not make a change, why not demand a reduction in exhorbitant fees, why not take action....Why not just sit there, accept the demise and flame anyone who cares
. But thats o.k, its not my livelihood under threat.And no offense but should I be impressed by your profile? Did I ask for your credentials? Dam I forgot to put my MBA on my profile.....
There is bugger all to these aircraft-ever spent some time in a car mechanics-modern cars make these aircraft look like back yard toys!!! MAYBE THE QUESTION AVIATION NEEDS TO BE ASKING AS A WHOLE IS WHERE DOES ALL THE MONEY GO??? Because it seems to be pretty clear that neither the pilots or operators are getting any of it!!
It all gets tied up in the cost to insure against product liability.
Bevan..