Cloud Flying Log Book Hours. Crazy requirements
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Cloud Flying Log Book Hours. Crazy requirements
Pilot has 2000 hours - lots of IFR - black night landings and departures in NW Australia. Gets knocked back at interview for regional airline because of lack of cloud flying hours! He had over 80 hours of instrument flight time in his CASA approved log book which has a column for instrument flight time but no column for differentiating between cloud flying hours and simulated or under the hood instrument flight time.
This airline is quite happy to accept automatic pilot flight time as cloud flying hours but says that simulated instrument flight time is not worth anything in their book. The application form on the pilotstaff cv.comwebsite apparently has a column for cloud flying hours. So it means if you have instrument flight time logged legally and ccorrectly in your pilot's log book and later on you apply to pilotstaff cv.com, you have to remember how many of the instrument flight time was in cloud and how much was simulated (in flight).
What a crazy situation this is. Either instrument flight time is accepted as valid or it isn't. There is no value in cloud flying on autopilot because there is no skill required for this - yet this particular large regional airline is happy to accept useless autopilot time instrument flight time in clouds as indicitive of The Right Stuff. And how about the Virgin Blue captain that told his F/O to "put me down for one hour I/F" in the flight records even though the trip was in CAVOK.
The whole question of logging of instrument flight time needs to be reviewed by CASA as at the moment there is no way any logging of in cloud I/F time can be audited or verified and as cloud flying time whether hand flying or monitoring an autopilot is obviously meaningful to at least one regional airline, it is wide open to faking of instrument flying time in order to get a job. Yet in Europe and Asia, 250 hour pilots can almost walk in a 737 or widebody job with no cloud flying hours but minimum simulated instrument hours. No wonder the Australian regionals bleat about shortage of pilots when they knock back experienced pilots because of a perceived lack of cloud flying hours.
This airline is quite happy to accept automatic pilot flight time as cloud flying hours but says that simulated instrument flight time is not worth anything in their book. The application form on the pilotstaff cv.comwebsite apparently has a column for cloud flying hours. So it means if you have instrument flight time logged legally and ccorrectly in your pilot's log book and later on you apply to pilotstaff cv.com, you have to remember how many of the instrument flight time was in cloud and how much was simulated (in flight).
What a crazy situation this is. Either instrument flight time is accepted as valid or it isn't. There is no value in cloud flying on autopilot because there is no skill required for this - yet this particular large regional airline is happy to accept useless autopilot time instrument flight time in clouds as indicitive of The Right Stuff. And how about the Virgin Blue captain that told his F/O to "put me down for one hour I/F" in the flight records even though the trip was in CAVOK.
The whole question of logging of instrument flight time needs to be reviewed by CASA as at the moment there is no way any logging of in cloud I/F time can be audited or verified and as cloud flying time whether hand flying or monitoring an autopilot is obviously meaningful to at least one regional airline, it is wide open to faking of instrument flying time in order to get a job. Yet in Europe and Asia, 250 hour pilots can almost walk in a 737 or widebody job with no cloud flying hours but minimum simulated instrument hours. No wonder the Australian regionals bleat about shortage of pilots when they knock back experienced pilots because of a perceived lack of cloud flying hours.
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Regarding logging of actual flight time and instrument flight time on a IFR flight plan. I was instructed in flight school to take .2 (12mins) off airswitch and log the whole flight as instrument.
Then flying overseas I was told you could only log 10% (or more if actual IMC)of total flight time...
Certainly a confusing issue considering I am using an Aussie logbook!
Then flying overseas I was told you could only log 10% (or more if actual IMC)of total flight time...
Certainly a confusing issue considering I am using an Aussie logbook!
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Once told by a CASA FOI that he considered 10% of total time to be an acceptable I/F time. Anything more than that and he regarded it as a bit sus.
Don't know if this was just a personal parameter or was an organisation thing.
Don't know if this was just a personal parameter or was an organisation thing.
And how about the Virgin Blue captain that told his F/O to "put me down for one hour I/F" in the flight records even though the trip was in CAVOK.
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It varies
I got 1000 hours of IF, in 15000 hours of flying, mainly in the outback. That's an occpational hazard in the outback. You do not get much cloud, but a dark night very definitely requires IF skills.
But coastal flying in the tropical north, or in Tasmania will give you plenty of cloud flying.
But coastal flying in the tropical north, or in Tasmania will give you plenty of cloud flying.
I think you guys are missing the point here that the airline in question is actually asking for a requirement that doesn't exist. This along with IFR flight plan hours and not counting ICUS are issues that airlines just make up. There is absolutely no requirement to log simulated IF time, or IFR flight plans for that matter.
Instrument Flight Time by definition includes hood IF time. So your mate by entering in the simulated IF column on the form has actually put down a number that doesn't exist!!!
Instrument Flight Time by definition includes hood IF time. So your mate by entering in the simulated IF column on the form has actually put down a number that doesn't exist!!!
I have to agree with the others, 5% is about right and any more than 10% would have to be lies.
For information, my IF time is about 3% of total time or 6% of all the total IFR flying time, as about half of my logbook is VFR.
About 1/3 of my IF time is "simulated/hood" time. I have been keeping a log of actual vs simulated ever since staff cv came up with the "stupid requirement"
I don't believe in making up IF time as others might expect me to fly better if I had more IF time than I actually do have.
For those who make up their IF time, I am sure their real proficiency (or lack of) will show up in flight/sim when they don't fly as good as their IF experience level says they should !!
For information, my IF time is about 3% of total time or 6% of all the total IFR flying time, as about half of my logbook is VFR.
About 1/3 of my IF time is "simulated/hood" time. I have been keeping a log of actual vs simulated ever since staff cv came up with the "stupid requirement"
I don't believe in making up IF time as others might expect me to fly better if I had more IF time than I actually do have.
For those who make up their IF time, I am sure their real proficiency (or lack of) will show up in flight/sim when they don't fly as good as their IF experience level says they should !!
Last edited by John Citizen; 4th Oct 2006 at 02:14. Reason: error
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Australian Civil Aviation Regs, Sub Reg 2 says: "instrument flight time means flight time during which a person is flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points."
and on the CASA website (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm) it says:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
...
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
Last edited by Unhinged; 4th Oct 2006 at 06:51. Reason: clarity
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unfortunately, unhinged, there is a contradiction therein.
cruising at a050. ovc cloud at a055. you are therefore in IMC unless the ground is higher than a040. you are not controlling the aircraft solely by instruments as you can see the horizon.
can you log IF or not?
cruising at a050. ovc cloud at a055. you are therefore in IMC unless the ground is higher than a040. you are not controlling the aircraft solely by instruments as you can see the horizon.
can you log IF or not?
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I agree wdn
That's another issue right there. IMC to me means non-VMC. Now, since it is possible to be non-VMC and not be in cloud, are you then in IMC? Can you log IF?
I won't bother talking about logging of IF on really really dark nights as that has been done to death with no real union of opinion, so let's not open that can of worms!
520.
I won't bother talking about logging of IF on really really dark nights as that has been done to death with no real union of opinion, so let's not open that can of worms!
520.
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Gidday wdn & C-520,
Leaving aside that JohnC said it could happen in the Flight Levels, it looks to me like you're raising essentially the same question, so here goes ...
If there is a contradiction (which I personally don't see yet, but there you have it !), then the CARs will certainly outweigh explanatory notes on CASA's website, and the Regs define "Instrument Flight Time" very clearly in Sub-Reg 2.
Quite simply, since you are not "flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points", you cannot legally log instrument flight time (in Australia). The fact that you are operating under the IFR on an IFR flight plan does not count as IF time.
Of course, the AIP identifies several situations in which you can proceed visually in less than VMC while operating under the IFR. (Visual approach, IFR departure, etc, etc)
I'm no apologist for the clowns in Canberra, but this one just seems very straightforward to me.
Leaving aside that JohnC said it could happen in the Flight Levels, it looks to me like you're raising essentially the same question, so here goes ...
If there is a contradiction (which I personally don't see yet, but there you have it !), then the CARs will certainly outweigh explanatory notes on CASA's website, and the Regs define "Instrument Flight Time" very clearly in Sub-Reg 2.
Quite simply, since you are not "flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points", you cannot legally log instrument flight time (in Australia). The fact that you are operating under the IFR on an IFR flight plan does not count as IF time.
Of course, the AIP identifies several situations in which you can proceed visually in less than VMC while operating under the IFR. (Visual approach, IFR departure, etc, etc)
I'm no apologist for the clowns in Canberra, but this one just seems very straightforward to me.
The discrepancy is that you are "flying the aircraft with sole reference to instruments" yet are in VMC and therefore cannot log IMC time. Similarly if you take off in high overcast with rain falling, you are not about to be looking out the front window yet you are in VMC!!
The other problem as said before is being "visual" yet NOT being in VMC. (ie to close to cloud) This is a tricky one as legally if you continue a visual descent you are TECHNICALLY busting the rules.
Either way whatever airline is asking difference between hood time and cloud time needs to go do Airlaw 101 again. Just about every other regional airline in the world would be thrilled to see the experience levels that they are getting in Australia, yet the Australian regionals are to busy winging about pilots not have enough experience of something that does not even exist
The other problem as said before is being "visual" yet NOT being in VMC. (ie to close to cloud) This is a tricky one as legally if you continue a visual descent you are TECHNICALLY busting the rules.
Either way whatever airline is asking difference between hood time and cloud time needs to go do Airlaw 101 again. Just about every other regional airline in the world would be thrilled to see the experience levels that they are getting in Australia, yet the Australian regionals are to busy winging about pilots not have enough experience of something that does not even exist
And how about the Virgin Blue captain that told his F/O to "put me down for one hour I/F" in the flight records even though the trip was in CAVOK
As you might be in CAVOK below 5,000' within 5nm but in IMC above 5,000'. Therefore you would still have CAVOK for the entire trip (for which the part of CAVOK applies) but be in IMC when above 5,000' and therefore able to log IF time.
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John Citizen. Good point re CAVOK. I should be more careful in the wording. In fact the example given of the VB captain should have been written as flying without a cloud in the sky.
I guess the morale of all this is that if you send an application through staffpilotcv make sure you split your claimed instrument flight time hours as 80% IMC and the rest under the hood.
I guess the morale of all this is that if you send an application through staffpilotcv make sure you split your claimed instrument flight time hours as 80% IMC and the rest under the hood.
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Neville,
There's a very common situation where IF time is legally logged when "flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points" in VMC. We often use a hood or some other vision-restricting method when conducting IF training for initial issue or renewal of instrument ratings, or when meeting IF requirements for other licences. It might be Day VMC outside, but the time under the hood is correctly and legally logged as IF time.
Wherever did you come up with "legally if you continue a visual descent you are technically busting the rules" ? The AIP is perfectly clear about the conditions for conducting a visual approach in less than VMC on an IFR flight. If you meet the requirements, there's nothing tricky, "technically" or illegal about it.
At least let's have an informed debate. If it's just a bunch of uninformed shouting we might as well all stay home.
BTW, of course I completely agree about the stupidity of separating "cloud time" from any other IF time. What are they on ?
There's a very common situation where IF time is legally logged when "flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points" in VMC. We often use a hood or some other vision-restricting method when conducting IF training for initial issue or renewal of instrument ratings, or when meeting IF requirements for other licences. It might be Day VMC outside, but the time under the hood is correctly and legally logged as IF time.
Wherever did you come up with "legally if you continue a visual descent you are technically busting the rules" ? The AIP is perfectly clear about the conditions for conducting a visual approach in less than VMC on an IFR flight. If you meet the requirements, there's nothing tricky, "technically" or illegal about it.
At least let's have an informed debate. If it's just a bunch of uninformed shouting we might as well all stay home.
BTW, of course I completely agree about the stupidity of separating "cloud time" from any other IF time. What are they on ?
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If you are an airline crew member flying in IMC while eating your sandwiches and enjoying coffee and the attention of a delightful cabin attendant (male or female whatever turns you on) and the automatic pilot is doing its job, how can this be logged? After all both pilots in an airline crew are "monitoring" the automatic pilot because I have observed this countless times. Just because one pilot is flying "his leg" while the other pilot is making inputs into the CDU and giving info to the autopilot system, does each pilot have to press their stopwatch to time how long each "provides input" to the autopilot.
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My understanding from an Air Force perspective was that you don't log IF if you are on autopilot. Happy to be corrected though. As everyone has seen from the previous posts - it's a bit of a misunderstood area. I've heard of people logging IF if they were on an IFR flight plan (not military)
The pilot providing input to the auto-pilot can log IF time. Same reference as earlier. Points b) and d) refer.
Cheers,
Uh
Instrument Flight Time All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
Ahhhh, gotta love VH-BIC time. 
You'd be hard pressed to be found out, but no doubt CPs will get suspicious when you rock up with more than 10% IF time from your total hours for a job!
You'd be hard pressed to be found out, but no doubt CPs will get suspicious when you rock up with more than 10% IF time from your total hours for a job!
