My Night VFR Takeoff safety brief
captain high,
Very pleasing, and quite rare, to see a poster that has some idea of grammar and punctuation!
777WakeTurbz,
Your post indicates there are a number of important aspects to engine failure (on a multi) and the subsequent assymetric flight that you are unaware of. I am not surprised by this, as these aspects are usually not mentioned by instructors, and usually don't come up during discussions on the subject. This is a great shame.
An inability to remain aloft can occur with the airspeed well above Vmca. On some twins, Vmca is so low it can practically be ignored.
Does the POH say you should be immediately retracting the flaps? I believe everybody is taught this drill on their initial multi endorsement, but the POH for some types (e.g. Cessna 400 series) says that, if the flaps are down, leave them down until reaching a safe height.
How will you fair in court, having retracted the flaps immediately, when the lawyer representing the families of the deceased points to the POH where it says the flaps should have been left alone?
Flap retraction, under any circumstances, causes a relative sink. It also robs a small amount of power from your good engine. Irrespective of whether your flaps are electric or hydraulic, your good engine will have a few horsepower less to make thrust with whilst the flaps are retracting.
How do you assess performance if it is very marginal? By observing the rate of climb? How long would you need to study the ROC indicator for in order to make the assessment? The initial yaw (and roll) from the engine failure, followed by control inputs and trimming effects, all cause small pressure errors at the static source(s) that will obscure the true rate of climb. Flying in air that is anything other than still will also cause variations to your ROC indication.
With the marginal performance of most light twins, you may find the ROC fluctuating between -100 and +100 feet but the net effect could still be a slight climb. Unless you are prepared to spend 10-20 seconds making your ROC observations, your assessment may well be wrong.
Unless you are in a lightly loaded King Air, attempting a tight circuit is a guaranteed way of eliminating any "performance" you may have had. Turning any vehicle (boat, train or car) causes it to lose energy (or "performance"). An excess of power is necessary to regain the lost performance (speed). This concept is well understood by pilots that have been educated in the subject of physics. A pilot that has done physics is a much better pilot than one that has not and this is why some airlines (e.g. Skywest) have a preference for the former.
The importance of not turning whilst assymetric is not emphasised anywhere near enough by instructors and other pilots. It should be hammered into pilots as much as the "don't turn back" message is to the single engine pilots. Unless there is an obvious need to get back on the ground quickly, there is no need to be in a hurry. Stay on the runway heading until at a safe altitude - even if that takes you 20 miles away.
Whilst on the subject of multiengined EFATO, another reminder: beware of the tendency to continue a takeoff when you should be aborting. It is in the nature of human behaviour that, despite having briefed otherwise, when suddenly confronted with the situation, pilots will instinctively try to continue. This is an aspect of human behaviour that is not mentioned at all during multiengined training but should be hammered in as much as the message about turning. The blissfully ignorant tend to think that whatever they brief, they will do.
Very pleasing, and quite rare, to see a poster that has some idea of grammar and punctuation!
777WakeTurbz,
Your post indicates there are a number of important aspects to engine failure (on a multi) and the subsequent assymetric flight that you are unaware of. I am not surprised by this, as these aspects are usually not mentioned by instructors, and usually don't come up during discussions on the subject. This is a great shame.
if the a/c drops far below Vmca then it could end in a very uncontrolled and unusual descent into terrain
My company uses a similar TOSB as well
"Blah, Blah, Mixture up, Pitch up, Power up, Flap up, Gear up, Dead leg=Dead engine, Confirm with throttle, close throttle, feather prop, mixture idle c/o ...
"Blah, Blah, Mixture up, Pitch up, Power up, Flap up, Gear up, Dead leg=Dead engine, Confirm with throttle, close throttle, feather prop, mixture idle c/o ...
How will you fair in court, having retracted the flaps immediately, when the lawyer representing the families of the deceased points to the POH where it says the flaps should have been left alone?
Flap retraction, under any circumstances, causes a relative sink. It also robs a small amount of power from your good engine. Irrespective of whether your flaps are electric or hydraulic, your good engine will have a few horsepower less to make thrust with whilst the flaps are retracting.
... if not performing land in a suitable area ...
With the marginal performance of most light twins, you may find the ROC fluctuating between -100 and +100 feet but the net effect could still be a slight climb. Unless you are prepared to spend 10-20 seconds making your ROC observations, your assessment may well be wrong.
if performing, continue tight circuit
The importance of not turning whilst assymetric is not emphasised anywhere near enough by instructors and other pilots. It should be hammered into pilots as much as the "don't turn back" message is to the single engine pilots. Unless there is an obvious need to get back on the ground quickly, there is no need to be in a hurry. Stay on the runway heading until at a safe altitude - even if that takes you 20 miles away.
Whilst on the subject of multiengined EFATO, another reminder: beware of the tendency to continue a takeoff when you should be aborting. It is in the nature of human behaviour that, despite having briefed otherwise, when suddenly confronted with the situation, pilots will instinctively try to continue. This is an aspect of human behaviour that is not mentioned at all during multiengined training but should be hammered in as much as the message about turning. The blissfully ignorant tend to think that whatever they brief, they will do.
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I dont disagree with you Aircraft, there are points in there should have included such as flap at safe height and probably with some margin on Vmca as well, and mentioned tight circuit as not using steep turns, it was just meant as dont stray further from the field than you need to, different wording would have solved this, my apologies 
And in checking performance, a pilot should be able to judge whether or not the a/c would be able to maintain height and Vmca after a/c is settled when gear is up and prop is feathered, thats why it is one of the last things done on the checklist.
I didnt feel like posting the POH in here, so ill watch how i word my TOSB from now on.
Turbz
And in checking performance, a pilot should be able to judge whether or not the a/c would be able to maintain height and Vmca after a/c is settled when gear is up and prop is feathered, thats why it is one of the last things done on the checklist.
I didnt feel like posting the POH in here, so ill watch how i word my TOSB from now on.
Turbz
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Flap will lower vmca but reduce climb in 400 series due to the split flaps. i would be doing whatever is necessary look at a safe speed in that twin rather than safe altitude...
This did start from a single engine TOSB at night, i merely added the others due to his nick being multi-engine.
plenty of ways to skin a cat, different aircraft, different situations...
Always the way for pprune to end the threads this way. No such thing as simple advice on here.
When i get a new pilot come through the doors i generally tell them stick to what you know, incorperate what you understand, and fly with-in your comfort zone. If it isnt comfortable it isnt safe...
But then again im no airline pilot, but i think cheif pilot and 4,000 hours can give me some means for input. This isnt a pissing match but just give the kid some advice not legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack fellow ppruners.
This did start from a single engine TOSB at night, i merely added the others due to his nick being multi-engine.
plenty of ways to skin a cat, different aircraft, different situations...
Always the way for pprune to end the threads this way. No such thing as simple advice on here.
When i get a new pilot come through the doors i generally tell them stick to what you know, incorperate what you understand, and fly with-in your comfort zone. If it isnt comfortable it isnt safe...
But then again im no airline pilot, but i think cheif pilot and 4,000 hours can give me some means for input. This isnt a pissing match but just give the kid some advice not legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack fellow ppruners.
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This isnt a pissing match but just give the kid some advice not legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack fellow ppruners.
Xcel, if you think my post was "legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack" then I suggest you need to take the subject a bit more seriously - you seem to have the "she'll be right" attitude, which sadly is all too common amongst pilots when it comes to this very serious subject.
