Diesel C206
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
Diesel C206
I see Thielert have a Centurion 4.0 engine certified into a Cessna 206.
http://www.centurion-engines.com/
Also C340, 414.
I wonder how long before they have one certified for Bonanzas and Barons.
This is truly exciting technolgy...350hp turbo diesel burning 45 liters/hr Jet A!!!
All of a sudden $90 per hour burning avgas becomes ?
What is a liter of Jet A worth these days?
I wonder if they will ever be certified for bio diesel in private ops only
New price 48000 Euros (AUD80K-twice the cost of an ordinary IO550)..but when you add in a 60% saving in DOCs I think this technology could revitalise this class of aeroplane.
EDIT: AUD80k is however cheaper than ordering up a blue printed TNIO-550 from Tornado Alley at USD70K...which is a much more direct comparison in terms of performance...and the TNIO-550 won't have FADEC.
http://www.centurion-engines.com/
Also C340, 414.
I wonder how long before they have one certified for Bonanzas and Barons.
This is truly exciting technolgy...350hp turbo diesel burning 45 liters/hr Jet A!!!
All of a sudden $90 per hour burning avgas becomes ?
What is a liter of Jet A worth these days?
I wonder if they will ever be certified for bio diesel in private ops only
New price 48000 Euros (AUD80K-twice the cost of an ordinary IO550)..but when you add in a 60% saving in DOCs I think this technology could revitalise this class of aeroplane.
EDIT: AUD80k is however cheaper than ordering up a blue printed TNIO-550 from Tornado Alley at USD70K...which is a much more direct comparison in terms of performance...and the TNIO-550 won't have FADEC.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 3rd Aug 2006 at 10:45.
I have some pics of a 172 Diesel with SMA certified conversion.
If someone tells me how to post pics, I will post some of it?
Model SMA SR305-230 - 230 HP at Sea Level.
Quoting 129 Knots "fast cruise" at sea level.
10,000ft - 138 knots.
Stall 45 knots with flaps @ idle.
Max range with reserves 9 hours or 1,255 miles!
From memory around $120k including aircraft rebuild / paint etc.
The theory was that you buy a 172 for $40-$50k, spend $120k on it and you get a "new" aircraft and save $$$thousands on buying a new one for $200k+
Squawk.
If someone tells me how to post pics, I will post some of it?
Model SMA SR305-230 - 230 HP at Sea Level.
Quoting 129 Knots "fast cruise" at sea level.
10,000ft - 138 knots.
Stall 45 knots with flaps @ idle.
Max range with reserves 9 hours or 1,255 miles!
From memory around $120k including aircraft rebuild / paint etc.
The theory was that you buy a 172 for $40-$50k, spend $120k on it and you get a "new" aircraft and save $$$thousands on buying a new one for $200k+
Squawk.
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Use the following format for posting pics:
[img]url[/img]
If they are not already hosted on a website, try uploading to www.tinypic.com
I would be very interested to see the pics!
[img]url[/img]
If they are not already hosted on a website, try uploading to www.tinypic.com
I would be very interested to see the pics!
A friend recently told me that he had an opportunity to fly a C-182 that had been converted to diesel power (at an alleged cost of $130,000). Overall he said it was smoother, faster and much simpler to manage. Starting was simple too.
Drawbacks were initial cost, high idle thrust on approach (making it tend to float), and the fact that diesel cannot be used (Avtur only). This can present a problem in the bush where Avtur is not as easily obtained at smaller strips. Otherwise, he said it was just like any other 182.
Drawbacks were initial cost, high idle thrust on approach (making it tend to float), and the fact that diesel cannot be used (Avtur only). This can present a problem in the bush where Avtur is not as easily obtained at smaller strips. Otherwise, he said it was just like any other 182.
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CHIMBU CHUCKLES....
I followed your post to the THIELERT site, but couldn't find much info on the Diesel C182.
Did they fit the 350HP version of ther Centurion 4.0 or is it derated to 300HP? Very interested to know the engine weight compared to the IO520 in the C182 configuration and fuel burn and TAS.
I really hope they persue a STC for the BO within the next couple of years in time for my next engine change! I reckon fuel burn and maintenace savings alone would would easily offset any extra installation costs over time.
Very excited about the long overdue advances in light aircraft engine technology.
I followed your post to the THIELERT site, but couldn't find much info on the Diesel C182.
Did they fit the 350HP version of ther Centurion 4.0 or is it derated to 300HP? Very interested to know the engine weight compared to the IO520 in the C182 configuration and fuel burn and TAS.
I really hope they persue a STC for the BO within the next couple of years in time for my next engine change! I reckon fuel burn and maintenace savings alone would would easily offset any extra installation costs over time.
Very excited about the long overdue advances in light aircraft engine technology.
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Hey Chuck, if you wanna burn kero in your toy, go for the Tradewinds Turbine conversion - yee-hah!!
(PS - Looking forward to some serious sherbets and dead cow on your next layover!!!!!!)
(& maybe a LAYover ........)
(PS - Looking forward to some serious sherbets and dead cow on your next layover!!!!!!)
(& maybe a LAYover ........)
Imagine the 350 hp Centurion diesel in Cessnas next generation airframe as seen at Oshkosh this year. Coupled with the G1000 glass cockpit would make a truly 21st century aircraft.
Now really dreaming, if only Cessna would design a 10 seat twin, using a pair of the centurion V8 engine.
Question time.
Will Cessna use this the new high wing design to start a new family of 172's and 206's?? Maybe even a 210 replacement.
Will Thielert design an intermediate engine, say 200 and 250 hp.
Cant wait to see the designs come off the drawing board.
Now really dreaming, if only Cessna would design a 10 seat twin, using a pair of the centurion V8 engine.
Question time.
Will Cessna use this the new high wing design to start a new family of 172's and 206's?? Maybe even a 210 replacement.
Will Thielert design an intermediate engine, say 200 and 250 hp.
Cant wait to see the designs come off the drawing board.
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
I will hunt out the stuff on the 4.0 powered Beech Duke. What is a liter of avtur worth at the moment. Then we can begin to see what the savings will be.
Jamair The Tradewinds Bo is just a boy racer. It climbs hard and that is about it..for less money this is the ducks nuts. There are SO MANY Bonanzas around the world they will be definately a prime candidate for an STC.
This technology has the potential to be transformational.
Jamair
The Tradewinds Bo is just a boy racer. It climbs hard and that is about it..for less money this is the ducks nuts. There are SO MANY Bonanzas around the world they will be definately a prime candidate for an STC.This technology has the potential to be transformational.
May 29, 2006
Centurion Engine approved for further aircraft
Hamburg, May 29, 2006 – Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH, subsidiary of the public listed Thielert AG, obtained the supplemental type certification from the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to integrate its economical jet fuel piston engines into additional Piper PA28 series. Croatia and Australia have been added to the list of countries having validated the company’s existing aviation certifications. This marks a significant expansion of relevant markets for Thielert’s Centurion engines. These innovative engines have already clocked up over 200,000 accumulated flying hours.
Two years ago, Thielert successfully incorporated the Centurion 1.7 in the Piper PA28-161 as a rebuilt engine. Supplemental type certification for the Piper series PA28-140, -150, -160, -180 and -151 has now been added. To this end, the Piper PA28-160 and -180 were reduced in weight to 976 kg. The EASA as representative of its 27 member countries presented the certificates on May 23, 2006. “The Piper PA28 is one of the most popular aircraft in General Aviation, after the Cessna 172. With these new certifications we now cover almost all series of these two aircraft models”, noted Frank Thielert, CEO and founder of Thielert Aircraft Engines. “The strategy of offering pre-assembled installation kits with our motors for used aircraft has been so successful for Cessnas and Pipers that we are going to start offering our kits for Robins in the near future”, Thielert added. In total, the Centurion 1.7 has now been approved for more than 25 models of aircraft and is flown intensively. Since the series was launched three years ago, over 200,000 accumulated flying hours have been clocked up using this engine.
On May 2, 2006, the Croatian aviation authority had already approved the EASA certifications for the Centurion 1.7, its installation in the Cessna 172 and Robin DR400, as well as the supplemental type certification for the higher-performance Centurion 4.0. Additionally Australia´s aviation authority validated the above mentioned supplemental type certifications for Piper PA28 on May 24, 2006.
These economical diesel jet engines are installed into used aircraft at Thielert’s sales partners. And the company has news on this front as well: with the addition of Cabair, Thielert has acquired a new partner. Cabair will take on both service and sales tasks for the Centurion engines locally. The number of sales partners worldwide has thus increased to twelve.
Just last week at the ILA in Berlin, Thielert presented installation kits for the Centurion 4.0. The 350HP engine as a retrofit kit is offered for the twin-engined Cessna 414, 421, and 340 also as for the single-engined Cessna 206. “There was overwhelming positive feedback to our presentation of the first kits with our Centurion 4.0. The first aircraft will be retrofitted on from August. We expect to get certifications in this country by the end of the year”, stated Frank Thielert.
Centurion Engine approved for further aircraft
Hamburg, May 29, 2006 – Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH, subsidiary of the public listed Thielert AG, obtained the supplemental type certification from the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to integrate its economical jet fuel piston engines into additional Piper PA28 series. Croatia and Australia have been added to the list of countries having validated the company’s existing aviation certifications. This marks a significant expansion of relevant markets for Thielert’s Centurion engines. These innovative engines have already clocked up over 200,000 accumulated flying hours.
Two years ago, Thielert successfully incorporated the Centurion 1.7 in the Piper PA28-161 as a rebuilt engine. Supplemental type certification for the Piper series PA28-140, -150, -160, -180 and -151 has now been added. To this end, the Piper PA28-160 and -180 were reduced in weight to 976 kg. The EASA as representative of its 27 member countries presented the certificates on May 23, 2006. “The Piper PA28 is one of the most popular aircraft in General Aviation, after the Cessna 172. With these new certifications we now cover almost all series of these two aircraft models”, noted Frank Thielert, CEO and founder of Thielert Aircraft Engines. “The strategy of offering pre-assembled installation kits with our motors for used aircraft has been so successful for Cessnas and Pipers that we are going to start offering our kits for Robins in the near future”, Thielert added. In total, the Centurion 1.7 has now been approved for more than 25 models of aircraft and is flown intensively. Since the series was launched three years ago, over 200,000 accumulated flying hours have been clocked up using this engine.
On May 2, 2006, the Croatian aviation authority had already approved the EASA certifications for the Centurion 1.7, its installation in the Cessna 172 and Robin DR400, as well as the supplemental type certification for the higher-performance Centurion 4.0. Additionally Australia´s aviation authority validated the above mentioned supplemental type certifications for Piper PA28 on May 24, 2006.
These economical diesel jet engines are installed into used aircraft at Thielert’s sales partners. And the company has news on this front as well: with the addition of Cabair, Thielert has acquired a new partner. Cabair will take on both service and sales tasks for the Centurion engines locally. The number of sales partners worldwide has thus increased to twelve.
Just last week at the ILA in Berlin, Thielert presented installation kits for the Centurion 4.0. The 350HP engine as a retrofit kit is offered for the twin-engined Cessna 414, 421, and 340 also as for the single-engined Cessna 206. “There was overwhelming positive feedback to our presentation of the first kits with our Centurion 4.0. The first aircraft will be retrofitted on from August. We expect to get certifications in this country by the end of the year”, stated Frank Thielert.
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
Here it is. Imagine one of these bolted to the front of a C210, A36...or each side of a C310, Baron etc.
Imagine the economy throttled back to 65-75% in a Bonanza....let alone that FF at 8-12000' and the TAS that would result...these engines are mildly Turbo so full HP up to 12000'
I suspect that DOCs could end up in the 25-30% range for a Bo or similar. Wouldn't that be nice?
In Muenster/Germany an airplane equipped with the jet fuel piston aircraft engine Centurion 4.0 did its first flight on 16th November 2005: a Beech B60 Duke. The conversion was carried out by the company Gomolzig for the customer Martin Hagensieker. In the twin the Centurion 4.0 replaces the initially built-in Lycoming IO-541-E1C4 which is not produced anymore.
Furthermore the manufacturer discontinued the product support for the IO-541-E1C4. In comparison the diesel conversion weighs 20 kilograms (50 lbs) less. The entire consumption was 24 gallons of kerosene per hour, which sums up to 20 gallons less fuel consumption compared to the avgas engines. For this reason the range of the Duke increases from 1100 Nautical Miles to 2000 Nautical Miles. Further successful flight tests were completed at the 16th and 18th November 2005. On the 22nd of December and on the 29th of December Gomolzig and Hagensieker did two longer flights with more than 2 hours. The fuelflow was at 85% of 310 hp (263 hp) 50 ltr./12,5 gal per side.
It is the same powersetting as 32"/2.500 rpm with no intercooler system at the original Duke. Final configuration for the STC will be carried out with the next generation of CENTURION 4.0 with 350 hp. The certification of the conversion is carried out by Gomolzig. Then Hagensieker will offer a conversion kit for the Beech Duke B60.
Data
Lower noise level less than 78 db(A)
Best rate of climb: > 1,200 ft/min
Speed at FL220: 220 kts
Economy cruise range, full fuel: > 1,800 NM
Furthermore the manufacturer discontinued the product support for the IO-541-E1C4. In comparison the diesel conversion weighs 20 kilograms (50 lbs) less. The entire consumption was 24 gallons of kerosene per hour, which sums up to 20 gallons less fuel consumption compared to the avgas engines. For this reason the range of the Duke increases from 1100 Nautical Miles to 2000 Nautical Miles. Further successful flight tests were completed at the 16th and 18th November 2005. On the 22nd of December and on the 29th of December Gomolzig and Hagensieker did two longer flights with more than 2 hours. The fuelflow was at 85% of 310 hp (263 hp) 50 ltr./12,5 gal per side.
It is the same powersetting as 32"/2.500 rpm with no intercooler system at the original Duke. Final configuration for the STC will be carried out with the next generation of CENTURION 4.0 with 350 hp. The certification of the conversion is carried out by Gomolzig. Then Hagensieker will offer a conversion kit for the Beech Duke B60.
Data
Lower noise level less than 78 db(A)
Best rate of climb: > 1,200 ft/min
Speed at FL220: 220 kts
Economy cruise range, full fuel: > 1,800 NM
I suspect that DOCs could end up in the 25-30% range for a Bo or similar. Wouldn't that be nice?
Turbine -v- Diesel
Chuck,
Was at Camden the other day and saw Jet A1 at $1.49 per litre, compared to $1.55 for Avgas.
Recently I saw a Tradewinds BO at Broken Hill that was being flown on an around the world tour by a retired gentleman and his wife from the USA. It was a converted 1996 model BO. If I had noticed this thread earlier I would have asked him the fuel burn. It had an Alison (now Rolls Royce) engine fitted. He did say though that operating costs are very expensive, it burnt a lot of fuel and his TAS was between 200 and 215 kts, depending upon ISA plus or minus conditions, which is typical of a turboprop. It operates up to FL170 whilst sucking on oxygen.
The speed gain is certainly not exponential with the cost of the conversion as you can only get so much out of an airframe, no matter how much bigger the engine.
I therefore think that a diesel is a much better concept. It will be interesting to see the real world figures for a BO when this is released.
JT
Was at Camden the other day and saw Jet A1 at $1.49 per litre, compared to $1.55 for Avgas.
Recently I saw a Tradewinds BO at Broken Hill that was being flown on an around the world tour by a retired gentleman and his wife from the USA. It was a converted 1996 model BO. If I had noticed this thread earlier I would have asked him the fuel burn. It had an Alison (now Rolls Royce) engine fitted. He did say though that operating costs are very expensive, it burnt a lot of fuel and his TAS was between 200 and 215 kts, depending upon ISA plus or minus conditions, which is typical of a turboprop. It operates up to FL170 whilst sucking on oxygen.
The speed gain is certainly not exponential with the cost of the conversion as you can only get so much out of an airframe, no matter how much bigger the engine.
I therefore think that a diesel is a much better concept. It will be interesting to see the real world figures for a BO when this is released.
JT
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
I am a little surprised how expensive avtur is. I read somewhere recently it was a LOT cheaper than avgas...like half...admittedly just another ppruner so not an impecable source.
The Tradewinds Bo is not a great deal except if you want to fly over vast bodies of water SE. Speed is up, but range falls (which means tip tanks) and the cost is huge...turbine reliability, but they fail too...not nearly as often though.
At that fuel price differential you'd be saving about $35/hr on fuel costs with the diesel as well as getting better range, TAS and reliability. Still over time the price delta will just get bigger not smaller.
The Tradewinds Bo is not a great deal except if you want to fly over vast bodies of water SE. Speed is up, but range falls (which means tip tanks) and the cost is huge...turbine reliability, but they fail too...not nearly as often though.
At that fuel price differential you'd be saving about $35/hr on fuel costs with the diesel as well as getting better range, TAS and reliability. Still over time the price delta will just get bigger not smaller.
