What is co-pilot time worth?
What is co-pilot time worth?
Wondering what SIC time is worth. Think an operator would let someone loose on a piston twin having ~500 multi but not PIC?
After some perspectives on how valuable multi-crew turbine experience really is compared to straight up multi.
Cheers
After some perspectives on how valuable multi-crew turbine experience really is compared to straight up multi.
Cheers
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I would suggest that if you are going for a multi-crew turbine job then the more of that you have the better. If you are looking at going back to single pilot pistons then I would expect you would be up against the lads who already have single pilot / PIC time.
Id go for the straight up multi PIC - at least that will naturally open doors for the turbine job (or command position when the time comes).
Id go for the straight up multi PIC - at least that will naturally open doors for the turbine job (or command position when the time comes).
It all depends on what sort of aircraft and operation the S in C time is in. If it is RHS time in a PartBanana, Duchess, Aztec or aircraft not requiring a second pilot then not only is it worthless, but is also outside CAA rules for loging flight time. Any operator worth working for will know what is legal flight time and will look at your logbook in that light.
If it is proper two pilot operation and IAW a company or school's two pilot procedures and their records show you as the legal second pilot then is it is good time. You should be able to show that you we not just riding around with your mate and both logging the time.
Having said that any exposure to the IFR system will help with that first step into Commercial Operations just be careful how and what you log!
61.31 Pilot logbooks – crediting flight time
(a) The holder of a current pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot in an
aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, is entitled to be credited with
not more than 50% of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time
experience required for an airline transport pilot licence.
From Part 1
Co-pilot means a licensed pilot, serving in any piloting capacity other than
as pilot-in-command; but does not include a pilot receiving flight
instruction from a pilot on board the aircraft:
aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, is entitled to be credited with
not more than 50% of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time
experience required for an airline transport pilot licence.
From Part 1
Co-pilot means a licensed pilot, serving in any piloting capacity other than
as pilot-in-command; but does not include a pilot receiving flight
instruction from a pilot on board the aircraft:
If it is proper two pilot operation and IAW a company or school's two pilot procedures and their records show you as the legal second pilot then is it is good time. You should be able to show that you we not just riding around with your mate and both logging the time.
91.112 Daily flight records
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c), an operator of an aircraft must
keep accurate daily flight records that contain for each flight the
following—
(1) the name of the operator:
(2) the name of the pilot-in-command:
(3) the names of other crew members:
keep accurate daily flight records that contain for each flight the
following—
(1) the name of the operator:
(2) the name of the pilot-in-command:
(3) the names of other crew members:
Having said that any exposure to the IFR system will help with that first step into Commercial Operations just be careful how and what you log!
End of the day it doesn't really tick boxes so it isn't worth it. Knew of folks who did cadetships with guarenteed FO jobs one on a Twin Otter other in a metro and both of those had to go find VFR singles jobs after their "guarenteed" job was finished. Both of them also copped alot of stick from GA operators when looking for work.
You also need to be mindful of CAO and company requirements (ie 150 Multi Command for RPT, 400 Command for Multi Crew RPT etc) and that some mining companies and RFDS doctor's charters want 500 ME Command to fly a baron/310/PA-31!! Copilot times isn't going to change any of that either!
Unfortunately in this country bugsmasher multi engine command is what will get you jobs. You are wasting your time flying anything else! Don't say I agree with it but that's the way of the world.
On saying all that if someone will give you a copilot job with the option of getting a command later on then you are on a winner!
You also need to be mindful of CAO and company requirements (ie 150 Multi Command for RPT, 400 Command for Multi Crew RPT etc) and that some mining companies and RFDS doctor's charters want 500 ME Command to fly a baron/310/PA-31!! Copilot times isn't going to change any of that either!
Unfortunately in this country bugsmasher multi engine command is what will get you jobs. You are wasting your time flying anything else! Don't say I agree with it but that's the way of the world.
On saying all that if someone will give you a copilot job with the option of getting a command later on then you are on a winner!
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Neville - when those cadets had 2-300 hours of SE Command plus 1000 hours ME Turbine were they better or worse off than someone with just 2-300 hours SE Command? In my experience people who think co pilot time isn't worth anything usually don't have any 
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For what its worth - here's my five cents on this issue: I've just finished over 500hrs twin otter F/O and 750hrs SE PIC time in the pacific region and come home to Australia to find that it is very hard, neigh impossible, to find a decent job in Australia without the coveted 500hrs ME command. Whilst I gained invaluable experience as an F/O in some pretty interesting conditions it seems to count for zip when trying to get a job. My expectations of the kind of job that might have awaited me have steadily declined until I've come to the realisation that I may just have to hop back in a single and work my way up the ladder again in a different company. I guess my advice is to look for a company that has singles, multi-crew twins, but also light twins to gain your ME PIC time on so that when the time comes you can keep progressing onwards and upwards!
Jet A
Not saying that I don't think its worthless, just telling it as it is. When the cadets have 300 single command they are in exactly the same boat as everyone else and end up going through all the same old stuff anyway. They didn't go anywhere any faster than anyone else.(not to mention the big coin they spent on training only to end up doing what everyone else was doing)
Copilot may help when you have 500 ME but it won't get you in a airline any faster as I think Long John has discovered. Once you have 500 ME you can apply for FO jobs anyway.
Not saying that's its right, just saying that's the way it works in Australia. Go overseas with it and they'll probably think you're a genius.
Not saying that I don't think its worthless, just telling it as it is. When the cadets have 300 single command they are in exactly the same boat as everyone else and end up going through all the same old stuff anyway. They didn't go anywhere any faster than anyone else.(not to mention the big coin they spent on training only to end up doing what everyone else was doing)
Copilot may help when you have 500 ME but it won't get you in a airline any faster as I think Long John has discovered. Once you have 500 ME you can apply for FO jobs anyway.
Not saying that's its right, just saying that's the way it works in Australia. Go overseas with it and they'll probably think you're a genius.
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500 SIC, will not help you get a job, but it will help you in your decision making and commercial processes. I learnt a LOT from sitting in the right seat of commercial ops, and watching what really happened in the real world. Admittedly, I was also doing M/E PIC stuff as well, but found that I could apply what I had learnt in the RHS, to PIC decisions.
IF you do take a RHS job, dont just sit there and learn nothing. it is VERY valuable... to YOU!
IF you do take a RHS job, dont just sit there and learn nothing. it is VERY valuable... to YOU!
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......a good co-pilot is worth his weight in GOLD!!!!!!!
AND there a many co-pilots,who should be the pilot....
...and for you jokers who are currently flying the "right-seat"...try not to classify it as a second-class-person thing....most A/C (commercial bigger stuff) require ethier 2 pilots or a second -in- command.....(I taught many a captain a thing or two)......end of story
AND there a many co-pilots,who should be the pilot.......and for you jokers who are currently flying the "right-seat"...try not to classify it as a second-class-person thing....most A/C (commercial bigger stuff) require ethier 2 pilots or a second -in- command.....(I taught many a captain a thing or two)......end of story
Time for clarrification
G'day folks!
Interesting posts.
Like most i highly disagree with the notion of cadets with co-pilot time coming in and grabbing the multi jobs that the guy up north in the single should be getting.
FWIW i flew in the NT in a single for 2 yrs then moved to the US and now am a SIC on a 20 000lb turbine beast flying boxes. Eventually i'll move to the left seat (hopefully) but wondering where i'm at if the proverbial hit the fan. We alternate legs between Captain and SIC and yes i spent 6 weeks in a groundschool so not sitting on a milkcrate logging time for free. It seems a shame to think at this stage i still couldn't get a job back home on a baron!
About the twotter remark, isn't it below 12500lb/5700kgs anyway? If your a required body in the plane the time should count for something.
Interesting posts.
Like most i highly disagree with the notion of cadets with co-pilot time coming in and grabbing the multi jobs that the guy up north in the single should be getting.
FWIW i flew in the NT in a single for 2 yrs then moved to the US and now am a SIC on a 20 000lb turbine beast flying boxes. Eventually i'll move to the left seat (hopefully) but wondering where i'm at if the proverbial hit the fan. We alternate legs between Captain and SIC and yes i spent 6 weeks in a groundschool so not sitting on a milkcrate logging time for free. It seems a shame to think at this stage i still couldn't get a job back home on a baron!
About the twotter remark, isn't it below 12500lb/5700kgs anyway? If your a required body in the plane the time should count for something.
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...Dont Think... when the cabin crew say jump....you ask ...how high....they are the "real" Captains of the ship(at least thats what they tell me
).....
).....
Grandpa Aerotart
LJS you came home too early...in the 'pacific region' you could have hung around and been on an Islander,C402,C404 or similar in very short order.
Hung around 12 mths more and been in the LHS of the Twotter.
12-24 mths after that who knows...RHS Dash 8...perhaps even a jet???
12-24 mths later and you're knocking on the door at Sunnies, Eastern or even CX, KA, QF.
Opportunity abounds...just not in Oz.
Maybe head back to 'the pacific regon'?
Even in the less delightful parts it might be better than a 210 in Kununurra?
Hung around 12 mths more and been in the LHS of the Twotter.
12-24 mths after that who knows...RHS Dash 8...perhaps even a jet???
12-24 mths later and you're knocking on the door at Sunnies, Eastern or even CX, KA, QF.
Opportunity abounds...just not in Oz.
Maybe head back to 'the pacific regon'?
Even in the less delightful parts it might be better than a 210 in Kununurra?
Former Essendon grade 2 instructor who was F/O on the B747-400 in UK. He really wanted to come home to Australia and came back on leave to try and get an interview with Virgin Blue when it started. He had 100 hours command light twins, 500 command singles and 4000 F/O time 747's.
Virgin told him to get lost and he didn't even get an interview because he didn't have 500 ME command.. Four years later he is now a 747-400 captain with Virgin Atlantic still with 100 hours command on light twins (Seminoles)
Virgin told him to get lost and he didn't even get an interview because he didn't have 500 ME command.. Four years later he is now a 747-400 captain with Virgin Atlantic still with 100 hours command on light twins (Seminoles)
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If the Woomera hot rumour line is working as it should, the "Multi Crew License" is under consideration by a civil aviation authority near you!
No details given but believed to be a route to multi crew airline command without 500 hours ME.
Sunny Woomera
No details given but believed to be a route to multi crew airline command without 500 hours ME.
Sunny Woomera
The multi crew license is more aimed at countries where they are struggling to get pilots. Read comments from QF recently say that they were not considering introducing such a scheme as their current system was sufficient and that they had many applicants that fit their criteria from Airlines/GA/Air Force/Cadets. Would also suggest that we don't have a pilot shortage in this country!
I think that this post also points out the current obsurdity of the Australian system. I too have stories of people coming from overseas with Jet time unable to even get an interview in this country becuase of 500 Multi rule. However to axe the multi rule and replace it with a zero to hero program will just produce people whose first solo is in a 737. I cannot see how that is the safest option when we have such an enourous depth of pilot experience in this country. For countries that don't have the depth that kind of license is thier only option.
Who is going to be able to afford a multi crew license in Australia?? It's
$30 000 JUST FOR AN ENDORSEMENT!!!!!!!! How much will an entire license of 200+ hours going to cost???
I think that this post also points out the current obsurdity of the Australian system. I too have stories of people coming from overseas with Jet time unable to even get an interview in this country becuase of 500 Multi rule. However to axe the multi rule and replace it with a zero to hero program will just produce people whose first solo is in a 737. I cannot see how that is the safest option when we have such an enourous depth of pilot experience in this country. For countries that don't have the depth that kind of license is thier only option.
Who is going to be able to afford a multi crew license in Australia?? It's
$30 000 JUST FOR AN ENDORSEMENT!!!!!!!! How much will an entire license of 200+ hours going to cost???