What is co-pilot time worth?
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What does 500 hours as an instructor, watching someone else fly some old Duchess, actually prove? Or meat bombing in a twin? 
To claim that experience as 'better' than copilot turboprop time, in the context of airline F/O recruitment, is quite clearly ridiculous. The rest of the world seems to get by without requiring F/Os to have 500 hours ME PIC.. (including qantas!)
To claim that experience as 'better' than copilot turboprop time, in the context of airline F/O recruitment, is quite clearly ridiculous. The rest of the world seems to get by without requiring F/Os to have 500 hours ME PIC.. (including qantas!)
It might be ridiculous but it's reality in this country!! So get out there and fly your bugsmasher twin that's what people want!!
This gets even more ridiculous when you consider people from the airforce or GA who have IFR experience on turboprop equpiment are ruled out becuase it's single engine. Had a guy come into work once who was a officer in the army looking for bugsmasher twin work so he could apply to National Jet!! Had flown everything the army had but hadn't flown fixed wings as a captain yet. So here he was looking for a crap GA job. He had over 1000 hours copilot in the 350 and twin otter but it was no good to him!!
This gets even more ridiculous when you consider people from the airforce or GA who have IFR experience on turboprop equpiment are ruled out becuase it's single engine. Had a guy come into work once who was a officer in the army looking for bugsmasher twin work so he could apply to National Jet!! Had flown everything the army had but hadn't flown fixed wings as a captain yet. So here he was looking for a crap GA job. He had over 1000 hours copilot in the 350 and twin otter but it was no good to him!!
Last edited by neville_nobody; 7th Aug 2006 at 05:06.
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What does 500 hours as an instructor, watching someone else fly some old Duchess, actually prove? Or meat bombing in a twin? To claim that experience as 'better' than copilot turboprop time, in the context of airline F/O recruitment, is quite clearly ridiculous. The rest of the world seems to get by without requiring F/Os to have 500 hours ME PIC
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Australian aviation employers have never had a problem finding pilots with 500 multi command, so why should they accept 500 multi FO (unlike Europe).
The die was cast before you started flying, you should have known the "rules", so stop bitching. You are not the first one to take the "copilot shortcut" into turbines, and then find out you need real time.
The die was cast before you started flying, you should have known the "rules", so stop bitching. You are not the first one to take the "copilot shortcut" into turbines, and then find out you need real time.
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You are not the first one to take the "copilot shortcut" into turbines, and then find out you need real time.
Cos in Oz planes fly differently..they be harder to fly..and if you dont have 3 orbits and 3 moon landings in the last 90 days..you dont get to play with them
Spinner..your comments betray an outdated ethos...fortunately there are plenty of opportunities offshore that have enabled others to avoid flat earth attitudes/comments such as yours, and allowed careers to progress.
I got a job as a B200 captain with 105hrs Multi PIC.......scary stuff..not
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Cos in Oz planes fly differently..they be harder to fly..and if you dont have 3 orbits and 3 moon landings in the last 90 days..you dont get to play with them
Read my first paragraph a bit more s l o w l y and digest it.
The ethos may, or may not be outdated, but it still stands. If you decide to try and operate outside the "ethos", there will normally be consequences.
Duxnutz
If you had really done the yards you would have your 500 milti. Good luck on you turbine job, just don't come back to Oz until you have your 500 command, and don't expect a fast transition through to one of the airlines. You will most likely have to slot back in to get some recognised "Oz time" before being considered.
In your case probably not a shortcut.
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Spinnerhead - there are plenty of people who have benefitted greatly from doing FO cadetships and have got where they are going much faster than the more traditional way. Not all of them, but I'd say more than half of them.
Plenty from the MBA cadetship got into majors 18-20 months after climbing into aircraft (I can think of about 8 not including the ********* cadets who fly red jets). Plenty from the current cadetships are flying Metros and other types in command years ahead of where they would be normally. I know one guy working for a a CBR based operator who has about 3000 hours total, 2800 of which are in Metros and 1200 of them in command. He isn't the only one I know of.
If it makes your ego feel better to think this isn't the case - then good on you
Plenty from the MBA cadetship got into majors 18-20 months after climbing into aircraft (I can think of about 8 not including the ********* cadets who fly red jets). Plenty from the current cadetships are flying Metros and other types in command years ahead of where they would be normally. I know one guy working for a a CBR based operator who has about 3000 hours total, 2800 of which are in Metros and 1200 of them in command. He isn't the only one I know of.
If it makes your ego feel better to think this isn't the case - then good on you
Bottums Up
In terms of employability, in my experience, F/O time is close to worthless. Three retrenchments as an F/O with ~500 to 1000 hrs wasn't considered all that desirable when looking for another job.
From that perspective, command time is everything.
From that perspective, command time is everything.
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Read my first paragraph a bit more s l o w l y and digest it
The ethos may, or may not be outdated, but it still stands. If you decide to try and operate outside the "ethos", there will normally be consequences
Can you please explain what those "consequences" would be? Im interested to know what can go wrong...
Personally I'm beyond caring about this archiac attitude and practice, as Im not about to come back to Oz to try and get a job on a clapped out PA31, 402, or B200 for that matter. What irks me however is this attitude of "you need to do your time in the bush..and your not a man/real pilot unless you've got 500hrs multi-PIC"
Requirement or not...its pure bulls**t because the world has moved on...if you can pass your MEIR on a Duchess, you are PERFECTLY capable of sitting in the right seat of a Metro/B1900/Dash 8/B737NG..and upgrading
How do I know this? well I fly with guys all the time..who have done just that..and are bloody good operators
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Spinnerhead,
I'll give you the heads up that real aviation employers ARE indeed struggling to find decent pilots with the 500 multi command to comply with LCRPT requirements. That's why companies similar to the one you work for work hard to get around the 500 multi requirement.
It is not about doing the hard yards in the Bungle Bungles, it is about being committed to being a professional in the way you develop your skills and training.
I would (and do) rather employ someone who has training and development time I can validate and control than someone who sees their temporary geographical disposition is a more relevant to a professional aviation company.
You and I know of ten pilots who all developed their skills using that system ten years behind you, who are now five years ahead of you.
You of all people should know this.
I'll give you the heads up that real aviation employers ARE indeed struggling to find decent pilots with the 500 multi command to comply with LCRPT requirements. That's why companies similar to the one you work for work hard to get around the 500 multi requirement.
It is not about doing the hard yards in the Bungle Bungles, it is about being committed to being a professional in the way you develop your skills and training.
I would (and do) rather employ someone who has training and development time I can validate and control than someone who sees their temporary geographical disposition is a more relevant to a professional aviation company.
You and I know of ten pilots who all developed their skills using that system ten years behind you, who are now five years ahead of you.
You of all people should know this.
Originally Posted by JetA_OK
I know one guy working for a a CBR based operator who has about 3000 hours total, 2800 of which are in Metros and 1200 of them in command. He isn't the only one I know of.
And hence the problem with FO time, you cannot do anything with it!!
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Neville..so just so I get this straight...My Oz ATPL..is illegal? (issued on the basis of JAA ATPL) and if I wanted to..I couldnt get a job, flying a kingair etc...because I only have 3000hrs heavy jet..and 450hrs multi-turbine PIC?
OK I am going to buy into this argument. As a former CP who use to employ young pilots, there are a number of reasons why Australian companies want what you are referring to as excessive requirements and qualifications. The first is supply and demand. If an operator can get someone with 1500 hours total including 500 hours multi engine command, three IR renewals and 100 hours night, why would he/she employ someone with a bare CPL and/or a bare MECIR or just Co-Pilot time? You wouldn’t. Secondly insurance has a great deal to do with the minimum experience levels set by operators. The name of any business is to keep your expenses down and if insurance can be kept down by employing more experienced drivers then so be it. And thirdly, client requirements. Some clients because of their own insurance requirements demand that the PIC must have certain experience levels. In some cases the hours are substantially more that what I have quoted above. So if/when we see a pilot shortage in GA in Australia and the insurance companies stop basing their premiums on the experience level of a companies pilots and clients stop dictating to charter companies/airlines minimum experience requirements, then and only then will we see low time pilots and pilots with mostly co-pilot time get a look in for those lucrative Single Pilot ME PIC positions.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 8th Aug 2006 at 13:49.
Originally Posted by haughtney1
Neville..so just so I get this straight...My Oz ATPL..is illegal? (issued on the basis of JAA ATPL) and if I wanted to..I couldnt get a job, flying a kingair etc...because I only have 3000hrs heavy jet..and 450hrs multi-turbine PIC?
Funnily enough you probably won't get a job in some GA companies as you wouldn't meet their minimums either
Great industry we have here isn't it
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Neville - where does is state that you require an ATPL and/or multi time to fly a Metro on charter ops? Before using ill advised words like "illegal" you should do some basic ground work. I'm sure you can read CAO 82.3 like anyone else can.
Guy in question is one of about 6 people I know whose first multi engine command hour was logged on a Metro 3/23. And the sky didn't fall in. And even old salty, cranky, cynical Training & Checking pilots will tell you that these guys are ok - or they wouldn't have checked them.
Some companies do think outside the box to get the best result for them. Not all of them are stuck in the 1980s like apparently alot of the visitors here. The days of 500 hours being a sole arbiter for a good operator are long gone.
Guy in question is one of about 6 people I know whose first multi engine command hour was logged on a Metro 3/23. And the sky didn't fall in. And even old salty, cranky, cynical Training & Checking pilots will tell you that these guys are ok - or they wouldn't have checked them.
Some companies do think outside the box to get the best result for them. Not all of them are stuck in the 1980s like apparently alot of the visitors here. The days of 500 hours being a sole arbiter for a good operator are long gone.
JetA_OK
With all due respect the market will decide minimum pilot qualifications for Single Pilot ME PIC positions, not yours or my wishful thinking. As I have said in my previous post, want dictates the experience levels required are generally outside the operator’s controls and I can’t see it changing anytime soon.
With all due respect the market will decide minimum pilot qualifications for Single Pilot ME PIC positions, not yours or my wishful thinking. As I have said in my previous post, want dictates the experience levels required are generally outside the operator’s controls and I can’t see it changing anytime soon.
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404 Titan - I am all for market forces; I just think they are changing and I don't think this is wishful thinking. Many mid level regional operators are thinking outside the box to get the people they want. The insurance issue is a problem, but less so for operators who run CAR 217 systems. These operators generally don't have min requirements for insurance reasons but primarily as a filter for employment. With the advent of CASR 121 (or whatever the hell its going to be called!) all pax operators will have CAR 217 systems and other support systems that mid level companies have. The insurance issue will recede into the background at this point.
The market has always driven the 500 multi requirement as a filter for applicants. I think the market is changing - just slowly. Clearly the market is changing to some degree or people wouln't be logging their first multi command hour in a Metro.
The market has always driven the 500 multi requirement as a filter for applicants. I think the market is changing - just slowly. Clearly the market is changing to some degree or people wouln't be logging their first multi command hour in a Metro.
