EFATO - Priorities
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Sounds to me like the emphasis was incorrectly placed. As far as I'm concerned, everything revolves around flying the aircraft. I'd feel happier sending someone solo who flies the aircraft accurately but muddles the checks a little, than someone who aces the checks but at the expense of accurate flying.
Of course getting both right would be nice too!
Insisting that a students' first priority are checks when at 100FT and descending is asking for trouble IMHO.
Of course getting both right would be nice too!
Insisting that a students' first priority are checks when at 100FT and descending is asking for trouble IMHO.
Even if the engine goes at 100ft, you HAVE TO DO THE CHECKS prior to touching down.
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Originally Posted by multi_engined
What I want to know is because you only have seconds until you reach ground level, would you bother to quickly check the mixture control, fuel cutoff lever and make a mayday call, or would you just be concentrating on maintaining a best glide speed and putting in down in the biggest open area you could find for the best impact.
Regards,
ME
Regards,
ME
2. following on from this you missed out close the throttle--and if its a fuel stavation problem you may find as you change the attitude for landing you get a burst of power, full power in your case if you havnt closed the throttle.
3.the pneumonic comes from CHRIST THE FXXXXNG MOTORS STOPPED
C T F M S i am sure you can work it out!!
4, substitute 'best' with' least' but reverse it again when you tell the story in the bar
5. the first priority is to fly the aircraft as already mentioned but the missing phrase was, ' to the safest place.' and that may mean a turn, turns at low level mean different things to different pilots if you are a aerobatic ace who can roll at 200 feet agl it may have a diifeent meaning and nagle of bank than a pilot who has difficulty turning accurately at any level!
6. Ask yourself---if i run into a wall or overturn in a ditch do i want the fuel still on. the mags on, the master on. the engine partially running etc etc if you feel that these items may affect your future existence turn thm off
Grandpa Aerotart
I have had an engine failure at about 600-700 feet and it was a very short and busy time between there and stopped on a road.
Worrying about a ruptured tank and fire to the point you lose control and crash is plain dumb...since the days they moved fuel tanks from between the engine and the cabin/cockpit (J3 cubs etc) to the wings post impact fires have been mercifully few and far between....that is why they moved them.
Think about what you're doing on a normal approach from 200' down...nothing but flying the aeroplane. From 50' it's a normal landing seeking to set off the stall warning in the flare...just how much do you think you are going to achieve between 200' and 50' without compromising the last 50'?
You really think you have the spare capacity to transition from a 100' climb out to a forced landing while fecking with the EFATO memory items?
That is a crap load of mental gear changing.
If the engine fails for purely mechanical reasons nothing you do will change the result...if it stops because you ran a tank dry but you land nicely with minimum/no damage and nil injuries you will be lightly slapped over the wrist but respected for handling the situation professionally...particularly if the first words from your mouth are "Ahhh ****, Mea Culpa".
At 500' you have time for memory items and a fighting chance at a restart in some aeroplanes if you have run a tank dry. At 200-300' just fly the aeroplane and leave the trouble shooting for post flight debrief with an engineer....in between an experienced and skillful pilot may have time to turn stuff off once the flying part is mostly taken care of and you're established on a good final approach and trimmed for best glide.
The only way you will have the mental ability to cope with any of the above is if you have sat quietly visualising the various scenarios and constructing answers to the various problems.
It's a very old aviation saying but true non the less...The main difference between a professional pilot and an amatuer is an amatuer is surprised when the engine fails just after takeoff...the professional is surprised when it doesn't
Worrying about a ruptured tank and fire to the point you lose control and crash is plain dumb...since the days they moved fuel tanks from between the engine and the cabin/cockpit (J3 cubs etc) to the wings post impact fires have been mercifully few and far between....that is why they moved them.
Think about what you're doing on a normal approach from 200' down...nothing but flying the aeroplane. From 50' it's a normal landing seeking to set off the stall warning in the flare...just how much do you think you are going to achieve between 200' and 50' without compromising the last 50'?
You really think you have the spare capacity to transition from a 100' climb out to a forced landing while fecking with the EFATO memory items?
That is a crap load of mental gear changing.
If the engine fails for purely mechanical reasons nothing you do will change the result...if it stops because you ran a tank dry but you land nicely with minimum/no damage and nil injuries you will be lightly slapped over the wrist but respected for handling the situation professionally...particularly if the first words from your mouth are "Ahhh ****, Mea Culpa".
At 500' you have time for memory items and a fighting chance at a restart in some aeroplanes if you have run a tank dry. At 200-300' just fly the aeroplane and leave the trouble shooting for post flight debrief with an engineer....in between an experienced and skillful pilot may have time to turn stuff off once the flying part is mostly taken care of and you're established on a good final approach and trimmed for best glide.
The only way you will have the mental ability to cope with any of the above is if you have sat quietly visualising the various scenarios and constructing answers to the various problems.
It's a very old aviation saying but true non the less...The main difference between a professional pilot and an amatuer is an amatuer is surprised when the engine fails just after takeoff...the professional is surprised when it doesn't
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 4th Aug 2006 at 07:12.
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This one comes up from time to time. Perhaps should be limited to folks that have actually done it.
Here is how it went for me.
Engine fails at 60 ft. Wings level, aim for something soft(ish), everything back, everything off, harness locked, full flap, flare, we have arrived.
In about the time it took to read that sentence.
Practice in the same aircraft type revealed from 500 ft to ground is about 8 seconds, and almost a 180 degree turn. Empty. To the spot directly under where the power was pulled. So it definately would not make it back EFATO.
Know the drills, for sure. Know when you are better off looking out the window too.
Here is how it went for me.
Engine fails at 60 ft. Wings level, aim for something soft(ish), everything back, everything off, harness locked, full flap, flare, we have arrived.
In about the time it took to read that sentence.
Practice in the same aircraft type revealed from 500 ft to ground is about 8 seconds, and almost a 180 degree turn. Empty. To the spot directly under where the power was pulled. So it definately would not make it back EFATO.
Know the drills, for sure. Know when you are better off looking out the window too.
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Rubbish! That's the last thing you'll find yourself doing when the donk goes at 100ft....trust me.... I've had it happen TWICE. Like Rat**** said just park it!
In real life, sure, yeah you'd sod the checks and just stick it down. But what im saying is that during your training you had to demonstrate that you could do your checks perfectly regardless of the height limitations.
NB I saw "your training" for which yuo should read "my training".
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Originally Posted by ZH-127
I know. BUt what im saying is prior to being sent solo on your training this was the emphasis of the EFATO.. checks had to be done regardless of height, otherwise they wouldnt auth your solo flight.
Flying the aircraft is ALWAYS more important than reciting checklists. Your instructor was focussed on the wrong priorities, pure and simple.
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Happened to me at 100' and I didn't even get a chance to change tanks but I got it back on the deck and all 3 of us were uninjured.
Aviate,aviate,aviate,aviate then and only then.....navigate and communicate.
Aviate,aviate,aviate,aviate then and only then.....navigate and communicate.
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CC.... thats why mate,its a very old saying... because when it was first said ,most were surprised their engines didnt tank.......based on todays equipment I dont expext them to fail and are surprised when they do ....guess I,m an amatuer
Grandpa Aerotart
I am thinking more mindset than realistic expectation...fly SE piston often? They still stop occasionally...note I said stop rather than fail...there is a difference
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yeah mate...I did notice that....just trying to pull ya leg a little......like you, an aircraft owner.(C-185)...never had one yet.....but for sure,plan for that moment....probably be able to ****e through the eye of a needle at 20 paces when it happens
Last edited by pakeha-boy; 5th Aug 2006 at 19:34.
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1. Plan your departure. Short runways allow little scope to abort the take-off once airborne. Longer runways may if the gear is still down and the distance remaining equals landing distance required.
2. Check your departure area and if necessary reduce take-off weight to achieve realistic terrain clearance. Have a plan worked out.
3. Determine your decision speed. I always used Vyse in light twins. I also held ground contact until five or ten knots before decision speed.
4. At decision speed select the gear up. You are committed to continue the take-off following your escape plan.
5. If the engine fails after decision speed you do not have the luxury to conduct a post mortem examination as to why … leave that for the investigators. Your only option is to carry out your well practiced drills and feather the engine. Accurate flying then becomes a priority to meet obstacle clearance and return for landing.
6. If you have completed all your pre-flight checks, planned your departure and self briefed on speeds you will have the peace of mind to know that your sole job is to fly the aircraft and carry out the shut-down without hesitation.
7. Remember that if you opt for the luxury to conduct a full trouble check (at low altitude) prior to feathering, and the aircraft is in a high drag configuration (gear and flaps extended) a rapid decrease in speed will test your knowledge of the Vmca flight envelope.
2. Check your departure area and if necessary reduce take-off weight to achieve realistic terrain clearance. Have a plan worked out.
3. Determine your decision speed. I always used Vyse in light twins. I also held ground contact until five or ten knots before decision speed.
4. At decision speed select the gear up. You are committed to continue the take-off following your escape plan.
5. If the engine fails after decision speed you do not have the luxury to conduct a post mortem examination as to why … leave that for the investigators. Your only option is to carry out your well practiced drills and feather the engine. Accurate flying then becomes a priority to meet obstacle clearance and return for landing.
6. If you have completed all your pre-flight checks, planned your departure and self briefed on speeds you will have the peace of mind to know that your sole job is to fly the aircraft and carry out the shut-down without hesitation.
7. Remember that if you opt for the luxury to conduct a full trouble check (at low altitude) prior to feathering, and the aircraft is in a high drag configuration (gear and flaps extended) a rapid decrease in speed will test your knowledge of the Vmca flight envelope.
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Zh-127
Talk to your instructor (if you're still at that school)
Why are you training to do something different than what you'd do in "real life"?
In real life, sure, yeah you'd sod the checks and just stick it down.
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Sorry, misread the thread posted by ‘Multi-engined’ – for single engine why not apply much the same procedures – plan your departure, note your speeds and have your drills in the front of your mind.
I recall a colleague who suffered an engine failure in a single shortly after take-off in difficult landscape. After applying the drills he chose a reasonable patch and set up for landing. He then worked on getting the engine restarted, and succeeded. As he passed over his field the engine again stopped but he was too low to play around with it and had to park in amongst boulders and low vegetation. The aircraft was a write-off and he copped a broken leg and a broken nose. His commented afterwards that he should have switched everything off on finals and stayed with the plan!
I recall a colleague who suffered an engine failure in a single shortly after take-off in difficult landscape. After applying the drills he chose a reasonable patch and set up for landing. He then worked on getting the engine restarted, and succeeded. As he passed over his field the engine again stopped but he was too low to play around with it and had to park in amongst boulders and low vegetation. The aircraft was a write-off and he copped a broken leg and a broken nose. His commented afterwards that he should have switched everything off on finals and stayed with the plan!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Never had an engine stop (or fail) on me when in a single yet! In a twin is another thing. (Three times so far!
)
However, when flying singles which in my case is a Pa 25-250 towing gliders I always have a plan of action in the event of the noise ceasing after take off, and this action is decided upon before I even open the throttle.
As for the previous comment re turning back; I know of too many pilots who are no longer with us for that very decision!
In a twin is another thing. (Three times so far! )However, when flying singles which in my case is a Pa 25-250 towing gliders I always have a plan of action in the event of the noise ceasing after take off, and this action is decided upon before I even open the throttle.
As for the previous comment re turning back; I know of too many pilots who are no longer with us for that very decision!
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Originally Posted by Sykes
Talk to your instructor (if you're still at that school)
Why are you training to do something different than what you'd do in "real life"?
Why are you training to do something different than what you'd do in "real life"?
BEcause i knew that the instructor was incorrect in his priorities. At the time, every bit of study material i could get my hands on said "fly the damned plane" he was saying "do the damned checks, then fly the plane".
So, in the training i was doing what he wanted to get me to solo stage, but in my head i always knew that if i was solo and the damned thing stopped, i would concentrate on flying the aircraft, and do my checks if i had the time to do so.
MY instructor had his priorities wrong.
I'll have to chime in and say that in the past I was told the same thing as ZH-127 by one or two instructors. 
Thankfully, most just said fly them bloody plane! Ah, memories.
Thankfully, most just said fly them bloody plane! Ah, memories.
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ZH-127
Strangely enough your reference article supports the need for conducting checks. Thirty-odd years ago my instructor taught me that to deal with an engine failure:
• Nose down and trim for glide.
• Choose field and landing direction
• Check mags, mixture and fuel
• Attempt re-start
• If time permits carry out a full trouble check
• If re-start is not an option secure the engine.
The writer of your article has followed these checks in so far as the time available has permitted – well he managed the first two which probably saved him from stalling into the crap.
The final phase is probably not much different to any other landing, select full flap and land.
Skill based performance is your ability to fly the aircraft automatically.
Rule based performance is your ability to deal with the situation by way of checklist, even though it may be memorized.
Your instructor would look for both performance levels in dealing with such an emergency. Obviously the extent that the checklist can be applied depends on the time available. Simply lowering the nose and picking a field may be the limit at low level. Mechanical flaps will help by way of rapid deployment. However when time permits it is fair for your instructor to expect you to know the full checklist as it also sets up the aircraft for a safe and logical re-start if that is possible, and time permits. I would however be interested to see his demonstration of a low-level failure incorporating the full emergency checklist!
I think you are on the right track, and your instructor probably assessed you as safe for solo on the basis of the two performance levels above.
Strangely enough your reference article supports the need for conducting checks. Thirty-odd years ago my instructor taught me that to deal with an engine failure:
• Nose down and trim for glide.
• Choose field and landing direction
• Check mags, mixture and fuel
• Attempt re-start
• If time permits carry out a full trouble check
• If re-start is not an option secure the engine.
The writer of your article has followed these checks in so far as the time available has permitted – well he managed the first two which probably saved him from stalling into the crap.
The final phase is probably not much different to any other landing, select full flap and land.
Skill based performance is your ability to fly the aircraft automatically.
Rule based performance is your ability to deal with the situation by way of checklist, even though it may be memorized.
Your instructor would look for both performance levels in dealing with such an emergency. Obviously the extent that the checklist can be applied depends on the time available. Simply lowering the nose and picking a field may be the limit at low level. Mechanical flaps will help by way of rapid deployment. However when time permits it is fair for your instructor to expect you to know the full checklist as it also sets up the aircraft for a safe and logical re-start if that is possible, and time permits. I would however be interested to see his demonstration of a low-level failure incorporating the full emergency checklist!
I think you are on the right track, and your instructor probably assessed you as safe for solo on the basis of the two performance levels above.
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Originally Posted by dragchute
ZH-127
Strangely enough your reference article supports the need for conducting checks. Thirty-odd years ago my instructor taught me that to deal with an engine failure:
• Nose down and trim for glide.
• Choose field and landing direction
• Check mags, mixture and fuel
• Attempt re-start
• If time permits carry out a full trouble check
• If re-start is not an option secure the engine.
The writer of your article has followed these checks in so far as the time available has permitted – well he managed the first two which probably saved him from stalling into the crap.
The final phase is probably not much different to any other landing, select full flap and land.
Skill based performance is your ability to fly the aircraft automatically.
Rule based performance is your ability to deal with the situation by way of checklist, even though it may be memorized.
Your instructor would look for both performance levels in dealing with such an emergency. Obviously the extent that the checklist can be applied depends on the time available. Simply lowering the nose and picking a field may be the limit at low level. Mechanical flaps will help by way of rapid deployment. However when time permits it is fair for your instructor to expect you to know the full checklist as it also sets up the aircraft for a safe and logical re-start if that is possible, and time permits. I would however be interested to see his demonstration of a low-level failure incorporating the full emergency checklist!
I think you are on the right track, and your instructor probably assessed you as safe for solo on the basis of the two performance levels above.
Strangely enough your reference article supports the need for conducting checks. Thirty-odd years ago my instructor taught me that to deal with an engine failure:
• Nose down and trim for glide.
• Choose field and landing direction
• Check mags, mixture and fuel
• Attempt re-start
• If time permits carry out a full trouble check
• If re-start is not an option secure the engine.
The writer of your article has followed these checks in so far as the time available has permitted – well he managed the first two which probably saved him from stalling into the crap.
The final phase is probably not much different to any other landing, select full flap and land.
Skill based performance is your ability to fly the aircraft automatically.
Rule based performance is your ability to deal with the situation by way of checklist, even though it may be memorized.
Your instructor would look for both performance levels in dealing with such an emergency. Obviously the extent that the checklist can be applied depends on the time available. Simply lowering the nose and picking a field may be the limit at low level. Mechanical flaps will help by way of rapid deployment. However when time permits it is fair for your instructor to expect you to know the full checklist as it also sets up the aircraft for a safe and logical re-start if that is possible, and time permits. I would however be interested to see his demonstration of a low-level failure incorporating the full emergency checklist!
I think you are on the right track, and your instructor probably assessed you as safe for solo on the basis of the two performance levels above.
The only saving grace is that with it being a Vigiliant it does have a better glide ratio than say a Warrior, but its still close quaters. Normally at low level the radio call was done whilst also carrying out the other checks. Took about 5 seconds to complete the physical checks, and a further few seconds to complete the call.
It used to be a VERY busy time.
I remember once after a particularly hot few hours practicing them, we went for a turn back practice at bang on 500' AGL, well we encountered sink and turbulance over the trees at the end of the runway, whilst in the turn. Think we actually hit about 300' down per minute before the instructor decided to abort the practice. Not nice.
I was tempted to stick the power on myself and call it off.. at that height, with the trees and sink we had, it was just not condusive to good practice.
He thankfully called it off for lunch after that. Probably my worst session of practice. Hot, bothered, dehydrated and in need of a break, with crappy conditions.
