Mayday @ YPJT
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Mayday @ YPJT
Any news on a mayday from a Cirrus at JT today? The only Cirrus I know is SRM from RACWA. Didn't get any details only overheard third party conversation.
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AirSic
A jammed open throttle is hardly a Mayday.
The aircraft landed safely after waiting for the emergency services to arrive.
A jammed open throttle is hardly a Mayday.
Only used when a vessel or person is in grave and imminent danger and immediate assistance is required.
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It's a Mayday situation if the pilot declared a Mayday. Did he declare a Mayday? If he declared a Mayday then his jammed throttle Mayday situation was a Mayday situation.
If someone has heard that a Mayday was declared, why try to tell him it's not a Mayday?
It wasn't Airsic's decision to declare the Mayday....
As for whether it was appropriate or not to declare a Mayday for a jammed throttle, well, if it were this guy's first solo or something and he could see his last moments staring him in the face, why not declare a Mayday?
Obviously he got it together before he landed but maybe he was chewing up the seat cushion before that....
If someone has heard that a Mayday was declared, why try to tell him it's not a Mayday?
It wasn't Airsic's decision to declare the Mayday....
As for whether it was appropriate or not to declare a Mayday for a jammed throttle, well, if it were this guy's first solo or something and he could see his last moments staring him in the face, why not declare a Mayday?
Obviously he got it together before he landed but maybe he was chewing up the seat cushion before that....
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Perhaps Woomera, Capt Queeg has a point .. the point being level of experience given the acft type and the field location would tend to suggest that a student pilot or a pilot with low hours may have been PIC, and given the newness of the whole aviaton experience to the person, called the first thing in his/her mind.
As a person on the other end of the headset, It wouldn't necessarily matter to me what he/she called - as long as he/she did! The niceties can be tidied up as time progresses.
Capt Queeg - if I may, you seem a little touchy?
As a person on the other end of the headset, It wouldn't necessarily matter to me what he/she called - as long as he/she did! The niceties can be tidied up as time progresses.
Capt Queeg - if I may, you seem a little touchy?
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I'm fully with The Voice.
He/She in command felt they needed help and did what they felt they needed to to get it. Maybe an over reaction, but who cares, that can be discussed over beers.
I certainly don't think we should be putting them down or making fun of them. What about the low time pilot reading this thread (we know there are HEAPS of newbies here) who gets in a little pickle and DOESN'T ask for help because they have seen somebody bashed on here for a perceived over-reaction?
We want a culture of assistance in this industry, not bashing, well i do anyway.
Good on them for calling for help when they needed it, a good pilot uses all resources available, inside and outside of the cockpit.
He/She in command felt they needed help and did what they felt they needed to to get it. Maybe an over reaction, but who cares, that can be discussed over beers.
I certainly don't think we should be putting them down or making fun of them. What about the low time pilot reading this thread (we know there are HEAPS of newbies here) who gets in a little pickle and DOESN'T ask for help because they have seen somebody bashed on here for a perceived over-reaction?
We want a culture of assistance in this industry, not bashing, well i do anyway.
Good on them for calling for help when they needed it, a good pilot uses all resources available, inside and outside of the cockpit.
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Mayday is still at the pilots discretion, and thus why the AIP does not have a list of situations listed. Every situation is different and so to is every emergency and how you would deal with it.
Having done alot of flying in the Cirrus i can assure you that having the throttle jam open is a serious issue, especially if its a SR22- with the 310hp and slick aerodynamics these aircraft can exceed Vne in the cruise at full power no problem, not to mention that for every knot faster you go you have less time to make those decisions!
All ups to the pilot! Would not be an easy machine to fly an approach using the mixture control.
Does anyone know what machine it was? SR20 or SR22?
Also the parachute system is to be used when all other avenues have been exhausted! You must also be doing less than 133kts to deploy(not easy level with the throttle wide open) and in tests the parachute took 600-800ft to stabilise the descent rate.
But certainly in other situations that parachute has and will in the future save many lives!
Having done alot of flying in the Cirrus i can assure you that having the throttle jam open is a serious issue, especially if its a SR22- with the 310hp and slick aerodynamics these aircraft can exceed Vne in the cruise at full power no problem, not to mention that for every knot faster you go you have less time to make those decisions!
All ups to the pilot! Would not be an easy machine to fly an approach using the mixture control.
Does anyone know what machine it was? SR20 or SR22?
Also the parachute system is to be used when all other avenues have been exhausted! You must also be doing less than 133kts to deploy(not easy level with the throttle wide open) and in tests the parachute took 600-800ft to stabilise the descent rate.
But certainly in other situations that parachute has and will in the future save many lives!
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Point/s taken, but I wonder at the possibility of an "inexperienced" person being allowed to hire a Cirrus and as for "first solo", sure no reason beyond good judgment on the part of the instructor.
suggests that he shouldn't have been in command in the first place.
Notwithstanding, my point was in regard to the actual Thread Title rather than the actual event. "Emergency" may have been better choice of words.
Inappropriate titles such as "Boeing 747 down...." in reference to an unscheduled landing for a relatively minor issue is a good and but one actual example of what I mean.
maybe he was chewing up the seat cushion before that...
Notwithstanding, my point was in regard to the actual Thread Title rather than the actual event. "Emergency" may have been better choice of words.
Inappropriate titles such as "Boeing 747 down...." in reference to an unscheduled landing for a relatively minor issue is a good and but one actual example of what I mean.
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I remember chewing up the seat cushion on many occasions. I'd have thought we've all been there and done that and still been worthy of command of one machine or another. It's all part of the learning process.
Dealing with a stuck-throttle at an early stage will possibly have an effect on a student's confidence well in excess of hours of routine training.
So far, we don't know what level the pilot was, student or otherwise. "First solo" was simply a possibility which would give credence to the declaration of a Mayday. Maybe he can fill us in when he's had a beer and a change of pants...
Emergency may be appropriate, it may not. If Airsic heard that a Mayday was declared, then the title is appropriate!
As for throttling back with mixture.... OUCH! Don't let the ginger beers (safe in the hangar) hear you say that.
Another unknown in this tale is what position the throttle was jammed at. It might have been mid-range. Maybe fly onto final a little high, then mixture to cut off when assured of a landing? Don't forget to call the company and organise a tug.....
Dealing with a stuck-throttle at an early stage will possibly have an effect on a student's confidence well in excess of hours of routine training.
So far, we don't know what level the pilot was, student or otherwise. "First solo" was simply a possibility which would give credence to the declaration of a Mayday. Maybe he can fill us in when he's had a beer and a change of pants...
Emergency may be appropriate, it may not. If Airsic heard that a Mayday was declared, then the title is appropriate!
As for throttling back with mixture.... OUCH! Don't let the ginger beers (safe in the hangar) hear you say that.
Another unknown in this tale is what position the throttle was jammed at. It might have been mid-range. Maybe fly onto final a little high, then mixture to cut off when assured of a landing? Don't forget to call the company and organise a tug.....
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Originally Posted by Capt. Queeg
As for throttling back with mixture.... OUCH! Don't let the ginger beers (safe in the hangar) hear you say that.
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TLAW thanks for that.
So why dont we get constructive here and have a discussion on what might be an appropriate plan of action for such an event, beyond
So why dont we get constructive here and have a discussion on what might be an appropriate plan of action for such an event, beyond
chewing up the seat cushion
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I knew someone would say that, TLAW!
I was just speaking up for the ginger beers in whose mind the emergency, once safely dealt with, never seems quite as bad as the pilot whose @rse chewed up the seat cushion, felt it to be at the time. Just picturing them standing around the cooked donk, pointing and grumbling.
I'm sure Sunfish meant emergency-use only with that technique.....
Chewing up the seat cushion, AKA pucker-factor, is a natural reaction to stressful and abnormal situations for many pilots and/or trainees, other than, it would seem, our fearless woomera! One of them anyway, not sure which. Maybe the grumpy one.
I was just speaking up for the ginger beers in whose mind the emergency, once safely dealt with, never seems quite as bad as the pilot whose @rse chewed up the seat cushion, felt it to be at the time. Just picturing them standing around the cooked donk, pointing and grumbling.
I'm sure Sunfish meant emergency-use only with that technique.....
Chewing up the seat cushion, AKA pucker-factor, is a natural reaction to stressful and abnormal situations for many pilots and/or trainees, other than, it would seem, our fearless woomera!
One of them anyway, not sure which. Maybe the grumpy one.
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Hence the
I still think it's the best course of action in an emergency. Safer than getting lined up on final, cutting off the engine and discovering you misjudged the approach.
I still think it's the best course of action in an emergency. Safer than getting lined up on final, cutting off the engine and discovering you misjudged the approach.
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OK so if the throttle IS stuck in a more or less "open" situation the only way of controlling the amount of power produced is by;
1. removing the source of ignition = turning the key off = unforeseen and uncontrollable explosive/detonation problems all the way from the induction side, from inside the cylinder all the way down the exhaust system ?? =
engineers.
2. removing the source of the above (explosive/detonation problems) = using the mixture control = the judicious use of, will produce little, some, or lots of power ??? with a consequent lower probability of internal damage.
is a contradiction in terms. I would be interested to learn what "damage" would be caused to cause the ginger beers concern = no fuel= no power. The only concern they could have, is if you somehow set the "mixture" control in a position that may produce optimum stoichiometric or somwhere near max power/temp for the volume of air available = so what, which, given that is exactly what you dont need is highly unlikely.
Then we need only hark back to the real old days of the Sopwith Camel, I think, when the ONLY control of power (either on or off) was by the "blip" switch, i.e. turning the mags ( = engine) on and off to adjust power on the descent and landing. There was no issue with the induction and exhaust system because they were permanently "open". Mind you, I am open to be corrected on the details.
Remember a reciprocating piston engine is but an air pump with a means of producing self sustaining power by the addition of a combustible liquid and a source of ignition, if required.
is not normal and IMHO a regretable result of the current training standards and overall lack of "old hands" = experienced instructors, to pass on the "old tricks" = what every pilot should basically know, before he goes to commit aviation.
A not grumpy, but despairing Woomera.
1. removing the source of ignition = turning the key off = unforeseen and uncontrollable explosive/detonation problems all the way from the induction side, from inside the cylinder all the way down the exhaust system ?? =
engineers.2. removing the source of the above (explosive/detonation problems) = using the mixture control = the judicious use of, will produce little, some, or lots of power ??? with a consequent lower probability of internal damage.
As for throttling back with mixture.... OUCH! Don't let the ginger beers (safe in the hangar) hear you say that.
Then we need only hark back to the real old days of the Sopwith Camel, I think, when the ONLY control of power (either on or off) was by the "blip" switch, i.e. turning the mags ( = engine) on and off to adjust power on the descent and landing. There was no issue with the induction and exhaust system because they were permanently "open". Mind you, I am open to be corrected on the details.
Remember a reciprocating piston engine is but an air pump with a means of producing self sustaining power by the addition of a combustible liquid and a source of ignition, if required.
Chewing up the seat cushion, AKA pucker-factor, is a natural reaction to stressful and abnormal situations for many pilots and/or trainees,
A not grumpy, but despairing Woomera.
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Gee....Sorry guy's and gals...only wanted to know if anyone knew what the scenario was. Mayday was the call at the time that I overheard the conversation. Since then I have learned that a Mayday was called, adn that the PIC also used the words "tally-ho" when he landed, Engine off... Please don't shoot me for that!!!
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Does the Cirrus have a mixture control that can be used to "throttle back" the engine??
As for throttling back with mixture.... OUCH! Don't let the ginger beers (safe in the hangar) hear you say that
a contradiction in terms
I think not but anyway... I'm not all that hot on piston donks these days as it's been a while but I seem to recall something about high power settings at low altitudes require a rich mixture.
High EGTs, detonation, pre-ignition????? ...whatever, I'm really not entirely sure exactly. Once again, I'm presuming the throttle was jammed at a high setting.Sunfish mentioned "throttling" back the engine with the mixture control. Other than the fact that this is not a "throttle" action (I'm sure he knew that) he does seem to be considering the notion of power control as opposed to simply cutting the engine by cutting the mixture.
I believe this technique will lead to some sort of bad news for the engine to some degree. What the damage would be I am not sure and yes, who cares as long as you land safely, I agree.
Airsic, if you mean mixture to cut-off on final when landing is assured, then I agree it is the best course and what I would do, myself.
pucker-factor
is not normal and IMHO a regretable result of the current training standards and overall lack of "old hands"
I wish I'd had nerves like that in GA.......
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Is this a rumour network or a MYTH network????
For those that haven't flown a Cirrus before - keep out of the argument on Cirrus related facts; you know who you are!
A Cirrus is eminently suitable for ab-initio, however they are generally not used because they are too expensive; everyone knows that. As for being hard to fly and complicated... nope. They are a single engine tricicle undercarriage with a throttle and a mixture control. You *could* fly very normally with the glass turned off and you'd have a stock standard aircraft.
If it was an SR22 with a wide open throttle you'd be in for one hell of a ride, particularly with 2 POB on board or less. No matter who you were, experienced or not, it would be a difficult situation to think quickly over. You likely wouldn't exceed VNE however you'd probably be well into the yellow and if there were turbulence around you'd be in for one hell of a bumpy ride, believe me.
That being said, it wouldn't be too hard to bring her in nicely.
One of the most dangerous situations that you could have in a Cirrus would be a brake failure on 1 or possibly 2 brakes! Ouch! Now THAT is an aircraft I WOULDN'T like to be in!
For those that haven't flown a Cirrus before - keep out of the argument on Cirrus related facts; you know who you are!
A Cirrus is eminently suitable for ab-initio, however they are generally not used because they are too expensive; everyone knows that. As for being hard to fly and complicated... nope. They are a single engine tricicle undercarriage with a throttle and a mixture control. You *could* fly very normally with the glass turned off and you'd have a stock standard aircraft.
If it was an SR22 with a wide open throttle you'd be in for one hell of a ride, particularly with 2 POB on board or less. No matter who you were, experienced or not, it would be a difficult situation to think quickly over. You likely wouldn't exceed VNE however you'd probably be well into the yellow and if there were turbulence around you'd be in for one hell of a bumpy ride, believe me.
That being said, it wouldn't be too hard to bring her in nicely.
One of the most dangerous situations that you could have in a Cirrus would be a brake failure on 1 or possibly 2 brakes! Ouch! Now THAT is an aircraft I WOULDN'T like to be in!