Mayday @ YPJT
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Gaunty - an eloquent post as usual.
Having been on the receiving end of all manner of 'distress' calls I understand what you are saying ref the type of call made in this instance v nature of problem.
BUT, I, and I have no doubt others, have been in siutations where it is darned obvious there is an issue with a flight and NOTHING is said at all, no declaration of anything by the pilot even though the situation unfolding appears anything but normal. The ATC (and FSO when they were around) has the ability to place an alert on the flight if they think it warrants one, but that doesn't negate the responsibility of the pilot to make the notification.
One incident that immediately springs to mind is that of the DHC8 up northern WA some several years ago. The flight arrived in the vicinity of the field but didn't execute the normal end stages of the flight. I knew there was an issue, couldn't extricate from the crew what, (they did have their hands full with a particularly disabled aircraft as we know now) but even so, nothing was said.
So, I say again - I'd rather that something was said even if in everyones mind it is the wrong thing, to at least allow some other intervention to occur, if it is due.
Having been on the receiving end of all manner of 'distress' calls I understand what you are saying ref the type of call made in this instance v nature of problem.
BUT, I, and I have no doubt others, have been in siutations where it is darned obvious there is an issue with a flight and NOTHING is said at all, no declaration of anything by the pilot even though the situation unfolding appears anything but normal. The ATC (and FSO when they were around) has the ability to place an alert on the flight if they think it warrants one, but that doesn't negate the responsibility of the pilot to make the notification.
One incident that immediately springs to mind is that of the DHC8 up northern WA some several years ago. The flight arrived in the vicinity of the field but didn't execute the normal end stages of the flight. I knew there was an issue, couldn't extricate from the crew what, (they did have their hands full with a particularly disabled aircraft as we know now) but even so, nothing was said.
So, I say again - I'd rather that something was said even if in everyones mind it is the wrong thing, to at least allow some other intervention to occur, if it is due.
Last edited by The Voice; 12th Jul 2006 at 06:36.
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Ok, so a:
Mayday= Grave and imminent danger, where as a
Pan= Urgency
(I don't think there is any issue with this
)
The way that I see it then for this particular concern is (and somewhat simplified
)
1. If the throttle is stuck closed = Mayday, as you
have not many choices but to go down or stall.
2. If the throttle is stuck open = Pan. You are still flying
aren't you, and your not in grave or imminent danger.
In fact, some people will probably argue that you are
not yet in an urgent situation yet either
3. If the throttle is stuck open and you then run out of
fuel = Mayday (see No. 1.)
At the end of the day I suppose it comes down to aircraft type and PIC experience. The aircraft I fly states in its POH that an engine failure is an ABNORMAL.
So based on that how could you be in Grave Danger (everything being equal and by the book of course)
Mayday= Grave and imminent danger, where as a
Pan= Urgency
(I don't think there is any issue with this
)The way that I see it then for this particular concern is (and somewhat simplified
)1. If the throttle is stuck closed = Mayday, as you
have not many choices but to go down or stall.
2. If the throttle is stuck open = Pan. You are still flying
aren't you, and your not in grave or imminent danger.
In fact, some people will probably argue that you are
not yet in an urgent situation yet either
3. If the throttle is stuck open and you then run out of
fuel = Mayday (see No. 1.)
At the end of the day I suppose it comes down to aircraft type and PIC experience. The aircraft I fly states in its POH that an engine failure is an ABNORMAL.
So based on that how could you be in Grave Danger (everything being equal and by the book of course)
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Monopole
An ABNORMAL can have many consequences ranging from "bugger looks like we wont be going much further today" = Flt Plan Amndment, "This is not going well we'd better give someone a heads up" = Pan, to "Aaaaaah ****!" = "Venez m’aider" ("Come help me"). abbrv. "M'aidez" or more correctly "À l'aide!" or "Au secours!" Wikipedia.
but Mayday will do.
The Voice
Thank you.
And I agree you must have many frustrating events, I'm not an ATCer but like yours my work involves a very high level of communication skills including listening to and understanding the underlying subtext of speech. That is what's really happening v whats being communicated.
The incident to which you refer is IMHO a deeply disturbing lack of command judgement, which should at the very least demand "counseling" of the crew and/or, it may be an equally likely problem, as the event on face value is evidence of a "cover up" culture in operation, CASA should go through the org like a dose of salts . "We'll probably get away with this so lets not start a paper war with CASA and expensive maintenance issue down route."
Was it ultimately reported??
A Mayday or Pan takes less than 15 secs to transmit and should in normal circumstances, especially "with their hands full" suggesting they were in "grave and imminent danger), be made. That's why the mic switch is on the control wheel at the end of your finger.
Grrrrrrrr.
An ABNORMAL can have many consequences ranging from "bugger looks like we wont be going much further today" = Flt Plan Amndment, "This is not going well we'd better give someone a heads up" = Pan, to "Aaaaaah ****!" = "Venez m’aider" ("Come help me"). abbrv. "M'aidez" or more correctly "À l'aide!" or "Au secours!" Wikipedia.
but Mayday will do.The Voice
Thank you.
And I agree you must have many frustrating events, I'm not an ATCer but like yours my work involves a very high level of communication skills including listening to and understanding the underlying subtext of speech. That is what's really happening v whats being communicated.
The incident to which you refer is IMHO a deeply disturbing lack of command judgement, which should at the very least demand "counseling" of the crew and/or, it may be an equally likely problem, as the event on face value is evidence of a "cover up" culture in operation, CASA should go through the org like a dose of salts . "We'll probably get away with this so lets not start a paper war with CASA and expensive maintenance issue down route."
Was it ultimately reported??
A Mayday or Pan takes less than 15 secs to transmit and should in normal circumstances, especially "with their hands full" suggesting they were in "grave and imminent danger), be made. That's why the mic switch is on the control wheel at the end of your finger.
Grrrrrrrr.
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Now that we all agree on the subject of rational declarations of inflight abnormalities, and at the risk of being accused of having the last say;
May I suggest that not one pilot goes solo before He/ She demonstrates an ability to do a dead stick emergency or "forced" landing in whatever aircraft they elect to train in. (or have things changed)?
Therefor, why couldn't the pilot have gone to glider mode (Pan Pan), at 1500 ft over YPJT airport with a 1392 meter runway or declared same emergency (Pan Pan), and gone to YPPH with a three and a half kilometer runway?
From an "old hand" I can say that there are some engine failures in light twins that deserve a "Mayday" call and some engine failures in singles that only deserve a "Pan Pan" call.
I hope this thread has passed some rational comment for the benefit of people flying because it concerns me that of of three post solo junior pilots spoken to today, only one has ever heard of a Pan call.
May I suggest that not one pilot goes solo before He/ She demonstrates an ability to do a dead stick emergency or "forced" landing in whatever aircraft they elect to train in. (or have things changed)?
Therefor, why couldn't the pilot have gone to glider mode (Pan Pan), at 1500 ft over YPJT airport with a 1392 meter runway or declared same emergency (Pan Pan), and gone to YPPH with a three and a half kilometer runway?
From an "old hand" I can say that there are some engine failures in light twins that deserve a "Mayday" call and some engine failures in singles that only deserve a "Pan Pan" call.
I hope this thread has passed some rational comment for the benefit of people flying because it concerns me that of of three post solo junior pilots spoken to today, only one has ever heard of a Pan call.
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Sorry Bob 
I'll save you from the "last word".
BTW, I agree absolutely and not at all amazed at the results of your poll.
Monopole
I missed something that is even more important than all of the above re calls during ANY ABNORMAL event.
You gave me the clue?
There is absolutely no excuse short of total control/structural failure for the pilot to lose control of the aircraft. It is the first, middle and last priority. All the Maydays, Pans and "fixes" in the world are useless to you once the aircraft has departed from controlled flight.
As another "old hand" is wont to say, "if a crash is inevitable at least make it a controlled crash, and just keep flying the aircraft, until the after noise has stopped and the dust is starting to settle.", bit like you haven't "landed" a Tiger Moth until it is parked in the hangar.
I'll save you from the "last word".BTW, I agree absolutely and not at all amazed at the results of your poll.
Monopole
I missed something that is even more important than all of the above re calls during ANY ABNORMAL event.
You gave me the clue?
as you have not many choices but to go down or stall.
As another "old hand" is wont to say, "if a crash is inevitable at least make it a controlled crash, and just keep flying the aircraft, until the after noise has stopped and the dust is starting to settle.", bit like you haven't "landed" a Tiger Moth until it is parked in the hangar.
