Culture of Fear, Maintenance release entries or lack there of, and MEL's / PUS's
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Culture of Fear, Maintenance release entries or lack there of, and MEL's / PUS's
I am not posting this as an attack against the CASA; far from it. I would like to try and find a solution which will avoid the potential for real accidents occurring. I have noticed over the last 2 – 3 years a real "culture of fear" stemming from the authorities almost fanatical desire to recommend that the DPP prosecute.
Several senior, experienced guys have, over an ale or two, admitted to me that they find the ever present threat of prosecution over minor matters (like pilot paper work) a distraction from managing operations. No Royal Commission required to discover that pilots can't do paperwork, and anyway when was an incorrectly filled out F&D sheet a contributing factor to an accident.
However, this is not, to my mind the real issue. I have noted that many of the newbies (and not so newbies) are not reporting events and incidents due to this fear. Things like heavy landings, over speeds in turbulence, incorrect fuel loading, incorrect load sheets, go around and, terrifyingly, noted instrument and engine malfunction, panel lights out and a whole load of other things, which can, and do stuff up during a days operation.
Wont bore you with details of questions and answers, however, it became clearly apparent during my quest for "informal" information that that there is a real culture of fear out there.
It seem a shame to me. In the old days when young spotty turned up looking slightly green, we would get a reasonable explanation of what occurred, then try to cure the situation. If the kid is too scared to speak for fear of prosecution, it seems to me that we are loosing opportunities to get things sorted out properly and, provide education and the benefits of experience along the way.
I am not advocating that all prosecution stop, just that CASA be aware that there are real issues being kept in darkness because of this real and tangible fear.
Fear has always been a dangerous element, historically, it has created more wars, revolution and general chaos than just about any thing else.
Time for practical common sense to prevail before some gets hurt through it. ???
Init - Reaches for the Flack jacket, and puts feet up.
Several senior, experienced guys have, over an ale or two, admitted to me that they find the ever present threat of prosecution over minor matters (like pilot paper work) a distraction from managing operations. No Royal Commission required to discover that pilots can't do paperwork, and anyway when was an incorrectly filled out F&D sheet a contributing factor to an accident.
However, this is not, to my mind the real issue. I have noted that many of the newbies (and not so newbies) are not reporting events and incidents due to this fear. Things like heavy landings, over speeds in turbulence, incorrect fuel loading, incorrect load sheets, go around and, terrifyingly, noted instrument and engine malfunction, panel lights out and a whole load of other things, which can, and do stuff up during a days operation.
Wont bore you with details of questions and answers, however, it became clearly apparent during my quest for "informal" information that that there is a real culture of fear out there.
It seem a shame to me. In the old days when young spotty turned up looking slightly green, we would get a reasonable explanation of what occurred, then try to cure the situation. If the kid is too scared to speak for fear of prosecution, it seems to me that we are loosing opportunities to get things sorted out properly and, provide education and the benefits of experience along the way.
I am not advocating that all prosecution stop, just that CASA be aware that there are real issues being kept in darkness because of this real and tangible fear.
Fear has always been a dangerous element, historically, it has created more wars, revolution and general chaos than just about any thing else.
Time for practical common sense to prevail before some gets hurt through it. ???
Init - Reaches for the Flack jacket, and puts feet up.
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I don't know about fear of CASA but there is a culture of fear among young pilots new to the CPL scene about writing up defects in the maintenance release. This often starts with flying school policies where the CFI is often first consulted before a decision is made (usually by the CFI/chief pilot) to record a snag or merely keep an eye on it and maybe look at it at the next 100 hourly. In other words the defects are swept under the carpet in case it costs time and money. Regional CASA staff are vaguely aware it goes on, but appear to lack the permission from their own supervisors needed to investigate matters closely. Where a prosecution appears unlikely CASA seldom presses the point, preferring to wait for someone to present themselves as an easy target before hammering them.
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Refer Sods law of the ocean Part 1 paragraph 2a
A37575 Couple of points for consideration.
Flying schools do snag recording the way you describe in self defense, a) a student writing something like "aircraft won't start" on the MR will not help the grown ups to fix it, b) it is an essential (to my mind) part of your training that you learn to accurately define and record the problem, who better than the CFI to explain what you have wrong and how to set about getting it sorted. The Chief Engineer (grown up), if you can steal some of his time, is the best man to help with troubleshooting.
Most CASA delegates have actualy had flying school experience prior to lobotomy, rest assured if there was any impropriety, they would have it nailed down by now.
A lot of the GA problems exist due to the lack of MEL availability and the cost in time and money to obtain one.
What I am getting at is that should have a minor failure of some description before take off in the bush for landing in the big smoke, if you fly the aircraft without an MEL item covering your arse, you are illegal and will be prosecuted should the authority discover your awful secret, you are legal if the MEL says it's OK, but without one your stuffed.
The thing that concerns me is that guys are operating 'illegally" and not telling anyone that the pump, light or whatever was bust when they departed the bush. The follow on Pilot is in double jeopardy, a) no prior knowledge of a minor problem and b) he faces the same issues as the guy before. One day, two minor problems a dark wet night and another related failure and someone is going to have a really bad day.
Flying schools do snag recording the way you describe in self defense, a) a student writing something like "aircraft won't start" on the MR will not help the grown ups to fix it, b) it is an essential (to my mind) part of your training that you learn to accurately define and record the problem, who better than the CFI to explain what you have wrong and how to set about getting it sorted. The Chief Engineer (grown up), if you can steal some of his time, is the best man to help with troubleshooting.
Most CASA delegates have actualy had flying school experience prior to lobotomy, rest assured if there was any impropriety, they would have it nailed down by now.
A lot of the GA problems exist due to the lack of MEL availability and the cost in time and money to obtain one.
What I am getting at is that should have a minor failure of some description before take off in the bush for landing in the big smoke, if you fly the aircraft without an MEL item covering your arse, you are illegal and will be prosecuted should the authority discover your awful secret, you are legal if the MEL says it's OK, but without one your stuffed.
The thing that concerns me is that guys are operating 'illegally" and not telling anyone that the pump, light or whatever was bust when they departed the bush. The follow on Pilot is in double jeopardy, a) no prior knowledge of a minor problem and b) he faces the same issues as the guy before. One day, two minor problems a dark wet night and another related failure and someone is going to have a really bad day.
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There is often no training to a new CPL on how to correctly fill in a defect in a MR and often their best attempts are drivel and end up grounding an otherwise completely serviceable aircraft. A relationship between your maintenance shop and at least one of your pilots on staff must be established to get effective communication going and maximise aircraft productivity. This us and them mentality so prevalent in aviation these days is a serious safety hazard.
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Geez Messiah
I agree, but how to solve the problem. I think it's worth a whole new discussion.
Bit hard to blame the pilots for all of it though. When I was a lad, we all could fix our own cars/ bikes etc, and we knew people who could point in the right direction if we were stuck. The natural place to gravitate to with aircraft was with the grown ups in the hangar. The kids these days can probably tell you how to fix a wireless router and tune the VCR, but would they know how to fix a SU carb.
Airlines are great for training, some of the best ground schools I ever went to where run by engineers. Today, the poor old GA bloke seems to get less and less training by both flight staff and, engineers. He is also hamstrung by legistlation, even if he knows whats wrong and can get a sick beast home, he still has face the inevitable, either the flight was illegal or he is guilty of falsifying a MR. If he grounds it, the operator will have a lump off him. Catch 22.
Bit hard to blame the pilots for all of it though. When I was a lad, we all could fix our own cars/ bikes etc, and we knew people who could point in the right direction if we were stuck. The natural place to gravitate to with aircraft was with the grown ups in the hangar. The kids these days can probably tell you how to fix a wireless router and tune the VCR, but would they know how to fix a SU carb.
Airlines are great for training, some of the best ground schools I ever went to where run by engineers. Today, the poor old GA bloke seems to get less and less training by both flight staff and, engineers. He is also hamstrung by legistlation, even if he knows whats wrong and can get a sick beast home, he still has face the inevitable, either the flight was illegal or he is guilty of falsifying a MR. If he grounds it, the operator will have a lump off him. Catch 22.
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A_I wrote:
I can do both, and I wasn't bad on the triple SU's either 
GO the mighty 192 !!
The kids these days can probably tell you how to fix a wireless router and tune the VCR, but would they know how to fix a SU carb.
GO the mighty 192 !!
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Pall_me old
Thock - Thock - Thock, all engines work in 3/4 time (think my dar'lin Clementine) ; you know this. But can you help HUGh, he has 3 carbs on a 192, I ask you??. Gentlemen; start your engines. 
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Once I drove one of my father's WRX's, THAT showed me the meaning of life Real change your undies stuff, especially with the high flow turbo.
The only time my old HG van with the 192/triple SU's and Aussie 4 speed made me want to change my undies, was juuuust when you entered a corner, then realised it was a commercial vehicle no matter what you do to the suspension. 
If you got out the other side in 1 piece - change your undies
No smartarse remarks about mattresses in the back, thanks
Real change your undies stuff, especially with the high flow turbo.The only time my old HG van with the 192/triple SU's and Aussie 4 speed made me want to change my undies, was juuuust when you entered a corner, then realised it was a commercial vehicle no matter what you do to the suspension.
If you got out the other side in 1 piece - change your undies No smartarse remarks about mattresses in the back, thanks
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Always init.
Truth to tell some - repeat -some CASA FOI and most certainly some ATO's who were originally taught to fly in the flying schools bring with them a lip service only with regard of defect reporting. They may make a verbal report but avoid committing to paper on the proper document. It is a fact that some ATO's will avoid writing up defects because they rely 100% on their examing work to earn a living. No point in killing the flying school goose that lays the golden egg, as it were.
Most CASA delegates have actualy had flying school experience prior to lobotomy, rest assured if there was any impropriety, they would have it nailed down by now
The Messiah.
What rubbish. What total offensive generalisation. Pray tell the audience exactly how many flying hours as a minimum would you prefer for a CPL pilot to have before you personally consider him fully competent to record in a maintenance release "Left navigation light inoperative?"
Or how about this, even: "Primer leaking fuel when fully locked - petrol fumes present and wet fuel stain on carpet."
You say "Their best attempts are drivel". I put it to you Messiah that your post is just that - drivel and reflects badly upon your own attitude to new CPL pilots.
There is often no training to a new CPL on how to correctly fill in a defect in a MR and often their best attempts are drivel and end up grounding an otherwise completely serviceable aircraft
Or how about this, even: "Primer leaking fuel when fully locked - petrol fumes present and wet fuel stain on carpet."
You say "Their best attempts are drivel". I put it to you Messiah that your post is just that - drivel and reflects badly upon your own attitude to new CPL pilots.
exactly how many flying hours as a minimum would you prefer for a CPL pilot to have before you personally consider him fully competent to record in a maintenance release
It's something that is NOT taught to students at all (At least not at any of the flying schools I have been to). Even a 10min Brief on the subject could solve the problem. Private Pilots included, they fly planes to.
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even worse is when you hire an aircraft and the hirer says so and so and so is wrong with the aircraft and please don't write it up but we're happy to charge you full price 
my reaction - smile politely, take possession of the keys and MR, conduct the pre-flight, write up every single thing i can find and pay them nothing. i especially like it when CAR 47(1) applies and you can include the phrase "aircraft unairworthy".
i would say by far the biggest culprits in poor defect reporting are charter operators rather than flying schools. i have seen one well known BK operator steam up to the point that we were concerned about an aneurysm because one of the pilots had the temerity to endorse an MR. i didn't think it was possible for this guy to swear more than he usually does, but he proved me wrong.
my reaction - smile politely, take possession of the keys and MR, conduct the pre-flight, write up every single thing i can find and pay them nothing. i especially like it when CAR 47(1) applies and you can include the phrase "aircraft unairworthy".
i would say by far the biggest culprits in poor defect reporting are charter operators rather than flying schools. i have seen one well known BK operator steam up to the point that we were concerned about an aneurysm because one of the pilots had the temerity to endorse an MR. i didn't think it was possible for this guy to swear more than he usually does, but he proved me wrong.
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Always
Your thread:
"Culture of Fear"
suffered a little bit of drift, but it was useful,
perhaps a whole thread on fault reporting, Maintenance release entries or lack there of, and MEL's / PUS's could bring out some interesting anecdotes.
However, back to the initial topic,
Yes Always, there was (and there still is) a culture of fear.
This is why CASA were referred to as the "Gestapo", or were seen to be an unaccountable secret police.
Some also referred to "Mafia" like conduct, this was incorrect, the Mafia has a code of conduct, these CASA misfits had no such moral restraints.
CASA overzealousness, prompted by the bizarre concept that FOI's could measure their effectiveness by the number of "NCN's" raised,
did in fact lead to an unfortunate cultural shift within CASA.
Many regional offices were infected by this inappropriate behaviour, none more so than the soon to be closed Townsville office.
Other regional offices, especially Archerfield and Bankstown joined the competition.
The culture of fear was reinforced by the abuse of power, the granting or with holding of favours concessions and dispensations,
and the very subtle "failure to renew" a vital instrument prior to expiry.
These covert, undocumented methods of co-ercion were the stock in trade of those misfits obsessed with power, and not understanding their own role in contributing to the greater cause, Aviation safety.
Bruce Byron eventually recognised the problem, and has invoked his own high velocity culture change, effectively remedying the problem.
It was a sad reflection that the office with the highest NCN count also had the highest fatal accident count.
An office with a low NCN count obviously is working with their "stakeholders" or industry clients
and has therefore enforced in more effective ways to ensure compliance.
History will tell if BB turned the ship around in time, so far he seems to have succeeded.
Mentoring, educating, communicating, co-operating toward "Safe Skies For All" is far more likely to succeed
than the bullying, harassing, malicious vendettas and deliberate bureaucratic lethargy with approvals. (these errings are what BB is determined to eradicate)
MF
Your thread:
"Culture of Fear"
suffered a little bit of drift, but it was useful,
perhaps a whole thread on fault reporting, Maintenance release entries or lack there of, and MEL's / PUS's could bring out some interesting anecdotes.
However, back to the initial topic,
Yes Always, there was (and there still is) a culture of fear.
This is why CASA were referred to as the "Gestapo", or were seen to be an unaccountable secret police.
Some also referred to "Mafia" like conduct, this was incorrect, the Mafia has a code of conduct, these CASA misfits had no such moral restraints.
CASA overzealousness, prompted by the bizarre concept that FOI's could measure their effectiveness by the number of "NCN's" raised,
did in fact lead to an unfortunate cultural shift within CASA.
Many regional offices were infected by this inappropriate behaviour, none more so than the soon to be closed Townsville office.
Other regional offices, especially Archerfield and Bankstown joined the competition.
The culture of fear was reinforced by the abuse of power, the granting or with holding of favours concessions and dispensations,
and the very subtle "failure to renew" a vital instrument prior to expiry.
These covert, undocumented methods of co-ercion were the stock in trade of those misfits obsessed with power, and not understanding their own role in contributing to the greater cause, Aviation safety.
Bruce Byron eventually recognised the problem, and has invoked his own high velocity culture change, effectively remedying the problem.
It was a sad reflection that the office with the highest NCN count also had the highest fatal accident count.
An office with a low NCN count obviously is working with their "stakeholders" or industry clients
and has therefore enforced in more effective ways to ensure compliance.
History will tell if BB turned the ship around in time, so far he seems to have succeeded.
Mentoring, educating, communicating, co-operating toward "Safe Skies For All" is far more likely to succeed
than the bullying, harassing, malicious vendettas and deliberate bureaucratic lethargy with approvals. (these errings are what BB is determined to eradicate)
MF
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Centaurus
What does hours have to do with it? Do you think that hours reflect ability somehow?
As an example a new CPL that may have no aviation background and has been in aviation for 12-18 months, sorry but they would not know much and require further training that they never get before they should start entering defects without some guidance from a senior pilot or engineer.
I am not talking about something as simple as a nav light out.
What does hours have to do with it? Do you think that hours reflect ability somehow?
As an example a new CPL that may have no aviation background and has been in aviation for 12-18 months, sorry but they would not know much and require further training that they never get before they should start entering defects without some guidance from a senior pilot or engineer.
I am not talking about something as simple as a nav light out.
Messiah.
Give me a break. If the pilot who does not have the "skill" to write up a defect then how come he has the skill to pass difficult CPL exams and maybe even ATPL exams. He is no fool, despite what you personally may think. For example:
Severe nose wheel shimmy.
300 rev drop with magneto switch on R
Park brake inoperative.
Fuel gauge oscillates between empty and full even though full fuel in tank.
Left tyre bald.
ADF range 5 miles on an NDB that has 60 miles coverage. OK it could be a ground station problem but an avionics LAME could quickly check if it is the instrument or not.
Stall warning works on ground but not in the air.
Left door came open twice in flight and is hard to close and lock on the ground.
Aircraft pulls to left while taxiing on level ground - left brake warmer than right.
Vac pump (suction) below the green arc in cruise.
Power failure flag on turn coordinator intermittent operation on ground and in air.
Are you alleging that any of the above examples of a maintenance release entry is beyond the brain of a new CPL.
Be truthful Messiah. What you really mean is that you prefer to vet an MR entry first just in case the defect is going to delay a flight and cost money.
Of course you could always fall back on a technique that one particular rogue LAME used to do when a pilot snagged one of his aircraft - and that was answer the defect with "Entered in error" and thus sign it off.
As an example a new CPL that may have no aviation background and has been in aviation for 12-18 months, sorry but they would not know much and require further training that they never get before they should start entering defects without some guidance from a senior pilot or engineer
Severe nose wheel shimmy.
300 rev drop with magneto switch on R
Park brake inoperative.
Fuel gauge oscillates between empty and full even though full fuel in tank.
Left tyre bald.
ADF range 5 miles on an NDB that has 60 miles coverage. OK it could be a ground station problem but an avionics LAME could quickly check if it is the instrument or not.
Stall warning works on ground but not in the air.
Left door came open twice in flight and is hard to close and lock on the ground.
Aircraft pulls to left while taxiing on level ground - left brake warmer than right.
Vac pump (suction) below the green arc in cruise.
Power failure flag on turn coordinator intermittent operation on ground and in air.
Are you alleging that any of the above examples of a maintenance release entry is beyond the brain of a new CPL.
Be truthful Messiah. What you really mean is that you prefer to vet an MR entry first just in case the defect is going to delay a flight and cost money.
Of course you could always fall back on a technique that one particular rogue LAME used to do when a pilot snagged one of his aircraft - and that was answer the defect with "Entered in error" and thus sign it off.
Moderator
Two points ..
(a) unless things have changed since I last looked at the various words .. the MR snag doesn't necessarily ground the aircraft unless the unairworthy annotation goes along with it ..
(b) re MELs, be aware that CASA has taken the bull by the horns and has an active program underway to develop generic MELs for the GA fraternity .. sure, you have to subscribe to get and use the copy but CASA has done the work for each aircraft via a committee of relevant CASA and Industry people. Having participated for one such aircraft exercise I suggest that this is a very positive CASA initiative and the output should take a lot of the sweat away in the GA sector ...
(a) unless things have changed since I last looked at the various words .. the MR snag doesn't necessarily ground the aircraft unless the unairworthy annotation goes along with it ..
(b) re MELs, be aware that CASA has taken the bull by the horns and has an active program underway to develop generic MELs for the GA fraternity .. sure, you have to subscribe to get and use the copy but CASA has done the work for each aircraft via a committee of relevant CASA and Industry people. Having participated for one such aircraft exercise I suggest that this is a very positive CASA initiative and the output should take a lot of the sweat away in the GA sector ...
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From "the hour buillding" days (when do they stop?) I have had the opportunaity to work for and with differing attitudes toward maintenance, MEL's as well as what, when and how to report it. Some were great, but over all I was in the past and seen / heard it happen to others being threatened with dismissal "If you don't take that aeropleane off now...." and "Just shut your mouth and get the job done or I'll find someone who can". We all know the story.
The CASA have a l o n g way to go to repair the rep they have earnt themselves but the culture of fear regarding maintenance, from my experience, is bread and fed from the operators themselves. If a pilot enters an incorrect entry on the maintenance log it is easilly cleared within the 3, 10, 120 days, etc. Granted out in the bush when the LAME isn't at the other end can be a different issue.
The CASA have a l o n g way to go to repair the rep they have earnt themselves but the culture of fear regarding maintenance, from my experience, is bread and fed from the operators themselves. If a pilot enters an incorrect entry on the maintenance log it is easilly cleared within the 3, 10, 120 days, etc. Granted out in the bush when the LAME isn't at the other end can be a different issue.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......Alaska Airlines,..MD-80.....California Coast....all lives lost....NTSB Report?????...does this ring a bell......if you have ever wanted to know about a "culture or fear"....read this report!!!...I live in a glass house as well,so dont throw rocks.....very disturbing,as it is apparent that the culture is prevalent in many parts of the aviation...
how many times ,have you as the Capt and F/O....have you elected to depart,knowing that at item should be MEL,ed but because it was the last leg(gethomeitus).....gone,item appeared in flight etc etc...just a thought..
PB
how many times ,have you as the Capt and F/O....have you elected to depart,knowing that at item should be MEL,ed but because it was the last leg(gethomeitus).....gone,item appeared in flight etc etc...just a thought..
PB