Jetstar Int. Package.
Chimbu is right on the tax issue, but can't agree with him on his long winded justification, of the capitulation of various pilot groups in Australia.
In my experience, very few experienced captains in positions abroad, are interested in coming home. Sure, most are financially set up, however, it is the fact that if you can't negotiatie a decent wage, nor will you be able to negotiate decent rostering or industry perks.
Dynasty
Are the blokes in Air China blackbanned from better jobs due 89? Why else would anyone be there?
In my experience, very few experienced captains in positions abroad, are interested in coming home. Sure, most are financially set up, however, it is the fact that if you can't negotiatie a decent wage, nor will you be able to negotiate decent rostering or industry perks.
Dynasty
Are the blokes in Air China blackbanned from better jobs due 89? Why else would anyone be there?
Grandpa Aerotart
Gnads with respect how much negotiating do you think is happening overseas?
Without exception expats are working under the age old primary unwritten contract condition of "If you don't like it **** off".
EK pilots are being worked into early graves with back to back ultra long haul interspersed with min rest overnights in time zones 8 removed from 'home' and often being bounced in very few days through home to a time zone 12-16 hrs removed from the one they were trying to sleep in 3 days before.
I feel very lucky to be working where I am...it aint perfect but it's closer to 'old days' style airline flying because we don't go everywhere on our route network daily...and even the places where we do we get two days there not the 24 hrs that EK guys get....some places we 4!!
Expat wise there are very few places paying huge money outside of CX, KA etc...and they have to because of the mind numbing cost of living in HK...even then it's only the 'golden handcuffs'...company paid mortgages...that make it worthwhile.
The average expat is working under conditions very similar to J* and for pay rates not so far above J*'s...not far enough above that they wouldn't come home, put the Mrs out to work and the kids in good Ozzie schools.
Often it's the case that VERY senior expats with long service at the current employer are on different packages to guys with only 5 or 6 yrs of service...B scales are a LOT more widely in use than just CX...they are just called something different...often it's merely a case of yrly increments having been stopped 5 yrs ago under the aforementioned primary unwritten contract condition.
As a result middle seniority Captains and SFOs see no point in staying if an op to go home comes up....knowing also that they can work longer in Oz if needed to top up retirement funds rather than being retired at 60 ready or not...and with no hope at that age of a similar position back home....knowing also that these opportunities present VERY rarely....maybe only once in a career.
Personally I rather stay where I am...even a few 1000 extra a mth adds up over 20 yrs, particularly with negative gearing...but I am not in a position of having a family to consider...my one child is almost finished school and in a few yrs I will be effectively single....if I had a wife and young children it would likely change my perspective.
At present expat packages world wide are down 30% on what they were 3 yrs ago just on exchange rates....lots of the extras have been carved off the packages. I believe all that will change....but as it stands at present many expat packages are not enough to stop guys going home at the first available opportunity.
Without exception expats are working under the age old primary unwritten contract condition of "If you don't like it **** off".
EK pilots are being worked into early graves with back to back ultra long haul interspersed with min rest overnights in time zones 8 removed from 'home' and often being bounced in very few days through home to a time zone 12-16 hrs removed from the one they were trying to sleep in 3 days before.
I feel very lucky to be working where I am...it aint perfect but it's closer to 'old days' style airline flying because we don't go everywhere on our route network daily...and even the places where we do we get two days there not the 24 hrs that EK guys get....some places we 4!!
Expat wise there are very few places paying huge money outside of CX, KA etc...and they have to because of the mind numbing cost of living in HK...even then it's only the 'golden handcuffs'...company paid mortgages...that make it worthwhile.
The average expat is working under conditions very similar to J* and for pay rates not so far above J*'s...not far enough above that they wouldn't come home, put the Mrs out to work and the kids in good Ozzie schools.
Often it's the case that VERY senior expats with long service at the current employer are on different packages to guys with only 5 or 6 yrs of service...B scales are a LOT more widely in use than just CX...they are just called something different...often it's merely a case of yrly increments having been stopped 5 yrs ago under the aforementioned primary unwritten contract condition.
As a result middle seniority Captains and SFOs see no point in staying if an op to go home comes up....knowing also that they can work longer in Oz if needed to top up retirement funds rather than being retired at 60 ready or not...and with no hope at that age of a similar position back home....knowing also that these opportunities present VERY rarely....maybe only once in a career.
Personally I rather stay where I am...even a few 1000 extra a mth adds up over 20 yrs, particularly with negative gearing...but I am not in a position of having a family to consider...my one child is almost finished school and in a few yrs I will be effectively single....if I had a wife and young children it would likely change my perspective.
At present expat packages world wide are down 30% on what they were 3 yrs ago just on exchange rates....lots of the extras have been carved off the packages. I believe all that will change....but as it stands at present many expat packages are not enough to stop guys going home at the first available opportunity.
Silly Old Git
Do they still have the silver service and Waterford crystal in the Q staff cafe?
Was a treat to sit among the potted palms and listen to the string quartet at lunch.
Mind you being mere AN were werent allowed to get TOO close.
Was a treat to sit among the potted palms and listen to the string quartet at lunch.
Mind you being mere AN were werent allowed to get TOO close.
Thread Starter
What a prime example of what will occur in many industries when there is the next economic downturn.
John Howards new IR laws 101.
Qantas controlling the majority of jobs in Australia have the ability to screw the growth potential of any chosen pilot career.
The most annoying facet is that the far majority of Qantas crew (Fo's and SO's) have no input to what their future earning/t&c will be.
Those that think the mainline career path will remain are delluded. Whatever the Jestar Package will or is, will be the final package for QF.
Just have a look at this months in flight magazine with the nice pic of the 787. Note that nearly all reference in the article is to the Qantas group. Not Qantas. Also the following quotes from this months Oz aviation;" Over the next few years, on current publicly announced plans, the Qantas domestic fleet looks like it will barely grow, or even shrink." and "Will Qantas's future domestic growth come only through Jetstar?" Well Hello!!!!!!
Many are still waiting for the so called massive training through mainline ranks as detailed by the King. Unfortunately, his thoughts of his own grandeur have clouded his vision slightly. SO to FO is now running at minimum of nearly five years taking up the first available slot. If you want the 400 FO slot, I believe, 12 years and blowing out? (Keg, is this close?) And command........ well shortly there will be a big oversupply in the 330 and the classic doldrums(?) continue after the end of the Hajj.
The 380 offers no solution, as the opinion that seems to be gathering steam is that of individual AWA's.
There will be simply no other options offered to mainline crew once the 787s start rolling in.
Simply put, the supply of flying done currently by QF mainline, will just about be all rolled over to JI. No doubt. (And some still don't know why there was a wholsale clearance of manpower at AIPA.)
One can only hope that the JPC can get all they can in current negotiations. Every mainline pilot is hoping for it.
John Howards new IR laws 101.
Qantas controlling the majority of jobs in Australia have the ability to screw the growth potential of any chosen pilot career.
The most annoying facet is that the far majority of Qantas crew (Fo's and SO's) have no input to what their future earning/t&c will be.
Those that think the mainline career path will remain are delluded. Whatever the Jestar Package will or is, will be the final package for QF.
Just have a look at this months in flight magazine with the nice pic of the 787. Note that nearly all reference in the article is to the Qantas group. Not Qantas. Also the following quotes from this months Oz aviation;" Over the next few years, on current publicly announced plans, the Qantas domestic fleet looks like it will barely grow, or even shrink." and "Will Qantas's future domestic growth come only through Jetstar?" Well Hello!!!!!!
Many are still waiting for the so called massive training through mainline ranks as detailed by the King. Unfortunately, his thoughts of his own grandeur have clouded his vision slightly. SO to FO is now running at minimum of nearly five years taking up the first available slot. If you want the 400 FO slot, I believe, 12 years and blowing out? (Keg, is this close?) And command........ well shortly there will be a big oversupply in the 330 and the classic doldrums(?) continue after the end of the Hajj.
The 380 offers no solution, as the opinion that seems to be gathering steam is that of individual AWA's.
There will be simply no other options offered to mainline crew once the 787s start rolling in.
Simply put, the supply of flying done currently by QF mainline, will just about be all rolled over to JI. No doubt. (And some still don't know why there was a wholsale clearance of manpower at AIPA.)
One can only hope that the JPC can get all they can in current negotiations. Every mainline pilot is hoping for it.
Grandpa Aerotart
I take a slightly less pessimistic view.
At the moment we are seeing a bit of a worldwide tug of war...various regions trying to attract a FAIRLY static population of 'experienced' pilots...I say FAIRLY static because cadet programs don't seem to be ramping up quick enough...most young people see easier money and better lifestyles in other options...particularly asian kids....new pilots are of course moving up but not in sufficient numbers for current needs....baby boomers are all rushing towards retirement like Leemings over the proverbial cliff.
Upwards pressure on mandatory pilot retirement age all over the world is but one example of the looming aviation skills shortage.
If I had to take a punt I would suggest the beancounters can see it all coming....and they are desperately driving down terms and conditions knowing that irresistable upwards pressure is coming....they figure if the starting point before 'up' is low enough the final pain will be barely tollerable.
I think it's gonna be a wild ride
At the moment we are seeing a bit of a worldwide tug of war...various regions trying to attract a FAIRLY static population of 'experienced' pilots...I say FAIRLY static because cadet programs don't seem to be ramping up quick enough...most young people see easier money and better lifestyles in other options...particularly asian kids....new pilots are of course moving up but not in sufficient numbers for current needs....baby boomers are all rushing towards retirement like Leemings over the proverbial cliff.
Upwards pressure on mandatory pilot retirement age all over the world is but one example of the looming aviation skills shortage.
If I had to take a punt I would suggest the beancounters can see it all coming....and they are desperately driving down terms and conditions knowing that irresistable upwards pressure is coming....they figure if the starting point before 'up' is low enough the final pain will be barely tollerable.
I think it's gonna be a wild ride
Grandpa Aerotart
Well after 14 days at home...albeit 2 spent in the sim and 4 in recurrent classroom stuff I have to sign on in 2 hrs for my next grand adventure...off to sunny DXB and freezing cold FRA and home, via the delights of BKK, in 7 days.
Beats working for a living
Keep it all in perspective people...otherwise you'll all give yourselves ulcers
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by hotnhigh
SO to FO is now running at minimum of nearly five years taking up the first available slot. If you want the 400 FO slot, I believe, 12 years and blowing out? (Keg, is this close?)
Anyway, as Chimbu says, there is upward pressure coming in the next few years (hopefully) which is why it is important for us to stop the conditions from dropping too much now. As for putting the wife to work, that ain't going to be pretty when you're flying back to back trips (because days off are being held up the track somewhere) and you've only got two days off at home and the missus is working both those days! So, you'll then have enough money to meet the house payments in Sydney and no life to atually live in the house with the family!
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Ok Chimbu,
I appologise for the tax view, it's been a long time since tax 101.
Feel free to do likewise for your comments on the QF awards which you likewise have a very limited knowledge of.
Regardless, nothing should go down without a fight. The J* Int deal is not very good. Aus is an end destination and it will be very very hard to fly max hours.
If I were looking at J*, I'd go for domestic - more money, more time at home. The Int pay rate has to be significantly higher to make it comparable.
I appologise for the tax view, it's been a long time since tax 101.
Feel free to do likewise for your comments on the QF awards which you likewise have a very limited knowledge of.
Regardless, nothing should go down without a fight. The J* Int deal is not very good. Aus is an end destination and it will be very very hard to fly max hours.
If I were looking at J*, I'd go for domestic - more money, more time at home. The Int pay rate has to be significantly higher to make it comparable.
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Gnadenburger – Some of the guys I refer to fall into that category but all of the ones I know from down under with itchy feet have done the overseas thing for 3-4 years and would rather be dicked around in their own country instead of being dicked around in Asia. Most of them came here because it was the first job on offer but now other better jobs are up for grabs and guys are leaving.
Mr Wooby – Jetstar is a startup airline no matter what you think of it – just cos qf are transferring business to it doesn’t change that.
Mr Wooby – Jetstar is a startup airline no matter what you think of it – just cos qf are transferring business to it doesn’t change that.
rooter
