Should Australian tourists rescued from New Orleans be billed for their rescue?
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Well, that may be so Brian Abraham, but you can rest assured the check-in staff brought it to their attention, as they had been instructed to do for at least two days prior! 
Edited to at least get the right blokes name in the post!
Edited to at least get the right blokes name in the post!
Last edited by BlueEagle; 9th Sep 2005 at 12:01.
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I am not knocking the herc guys who did a briliant job but I know if I had serious burns and time being a major factor for survival and healing then the prospects of a few hours in a jet or many hours in a rattly herc do not compare,
At times of need, for example the evac of Darwin after Tracy, you do what you have to do, I am sure a couple of docs patients and nurses could be accomodated in a chalenger if they wanted and definately in a BBJ, at least the more urgent cases,.
What are the comparitive flight times, Bali- Perth, Bali-Darwin between a c130 and a BBJ/Chalenger,
Maybe it should be considered in case there is a repeat event somwhere in the world where lots of Aussies gather,
At times of need, for example the evac of Darwin after Tracy, you do what you have to do, I am sure a couple of docs patients and nurses could be accomodated in a chalenger if they wanted and definately in a BBJ, at least the more urgent cases,.
What are the comparitive flight times, Bali- Perth, Bali-Darwin between a c130 and a BBJ/Chalenger,
Maybe it should be considered in case there is a repeat event somwhere in the world where lots of Aussies gather,
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You can slate John Howard, the GG and the government in general as much as you’re wont to, and in many cases, you’d probably have good grounds for doing so, h.i.d., but you’re way off beam with your criticism of using a Herc for medevac over a business jet, especially if large numbers of evacuees are involved (as they certainly were after the Bali bombing). Even a Challenger will only take a handful of patients, with minimal room for specialist medical personnel and their often bulky equipment (which in many cases, wouldn’t even fit through the jet’s door).
(Someone will undoubtedly correct me if my memory has faded and I’ve got the numbers wrong), but the Herc can take up to 64 litters – although a smaller number is usually carried to make room for the medical staff’s equipment and for patient comfort, as well as to allow the medical staff easier access to each patient. (It’s *** snug with a full compliment of litters!) And the number of medical staff that can be carried on the Herc far outnumbers the number who could be carried on something like a Challenger. A 707 might be faster and more comfortable, (as well as being considerably less noisy in the cabin!), but it requires an inordinate amount of ground support in comparison to the Herc, and that equipment is not always available in a disaster area immediately after the event – and sometimes there isn’t a operational runway in the area that will take a 707 or a Challenger. The Herc can also fly a very long distance maintaining its cabin at sea level, an important consideration with some head injuries. This isn’t feasible with most modern jets.
In many cases, the Herc can also get a lot closer to the event than a jet. During the Vietnam war, 37 Squadron’s E models were able to operate directly from Vung Tau’s 5000’ (very narrow, perforated steel plating) runway, saving the wounded much grief in multiple transfers. In at least one case I recall, they flew a Herc directly into Luscombe, the very small strip at the Australian Task Force’s main base of Nui Dat, to pick up some patients who were too gravely injured to risk the transfer to Vung Tau and Butterworth.
What would you have the Australian Government do, provide incredibly expensive assets to cover each and every manner of crisis with a primary view of providing Business Class comfort to all, or (very sensibly, I would have thought given the limited budget the Australian military and every other government department have always had to deal with), providing assets that would meet as wide a range of circumstances as possible?
----
Back to my original post, I don’t want to see a full cost recovery in this case, but as Andu said, I’d really like to see the media, and particularly the ‘Women’s Weekly’/ ‘Women’s Day’ crowd, get stuck into these people as the fools they undoubtedly were to have stayed – or in some cases, flown into the place – after a mandatory evacuation order was given, rather than treat them like **** heroes.
(Someone will undoubtedly correct me if my memory has faded and I’ve got the numbers wrong), but the Herc can take up to 64 litters – although a smaller number is usually carried to make room for the medical staff’s equipment and for patient comfort, as well as to allow the medical staff easier access to each patient. (It’s *** snug with a full compliment of litters!) And the number of medical staff that can be carried on the Herc far outnumbers the number who could be carried on something like a Challenger. A 707 might be faster and more comfortable, (as well as being considerably less noisy in the cabin!), but it requires an inordinate amount of ground support in comparison to the Herc, and that equipment is not always available in a disaster area immediately after the event – and sometimes there isn’t a operational runway in the area that will take a 707 or a Challenger. The Herc can also fly a very long distance maintaining its cabin at sea level, an important consideration with some head injuries. This isn’t feasible with most modern jets.
In many cases, the Herc can also get a lot closer to the event than a jet. During the Vietnam war, 37 Squadron’s E models were able to operate directly from Vung Tau’s 5000’ (very narrow, perforated steel plating) runway, saving the wounded much grief in multiple transfers. In at least one case I recall, they flew a Herc directly into Luscombe, the very small strip at the Australian Task Force’s main base of Nui Dat, to pick up some patients who were too gravely injured to risk the transfer to Vung Tau and Butterworth.
What would you have the Australian Government do, provide incredibly expensive assets to cover each and every manner of crisis with a primary view of providing Business Class comfort to all, or (very sensibly, I would have thought given the limited budget the Australian military and every other government department have always had to deal with), providing assets that would meet as wide a range of circumstances as possible?
----
Back to my original post, I don’t want to see a full cost recovery in this case, but as Andu said, I’d really like to see the media, and particularly the ‘Women’s Weekly’/ ‘Women’s Day’ crowd, get stuck into these people as the fools they undoubtedly were to have stayed – or in some cases, flown into the place – after a mandatory evacuation order was given, rather than treat them like **** heroes.
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Dark knight you are a jack-arse!!!!!......I have just finished flying 3 trips in and out of houston and New orleans,when we could get in ...these are flights that I have donated my time,plus my F/o and Flight Attendants ..on our days off...the company has supplied 3 A320,s to help in these efforts......we are picking up desperate people and flying them to Houston....you have know Idea what the FCUK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!...these people are not looking for handouts,they are looking for compassion and basic human help and courtsey in a very tough situation .....nobody needs to pay,because those that can ..would...hopefully you have been watching telly and have seen the devastation.....mate!! its bloody real......I am only a small spoke in the wheel doing my part,and as a kiwi are bloody proud to be able to help,,,,as much as I give aussies a bloody hard time,,,I would be the first to give my shirt off my back to one in need......show some compassion......get off you "white horse" and join the real world...... I rest my case......hoki-mai
Dark Knight is equally entitled to his view as are you, it is not necessary for you to abuse him to make your point . Your personal efforts are no doubt keenly appreciated but lets keep the issues separate.
From where I sit watching, it seems the thread is clearly about taking personal responsibility for ones actions.
Settle down, your point is diminished by your language.
Dark Knight is equally entitled to his view as are you, it is not necessary for you to abuse him to make your point . Your personal efforts are no doubt keenly appreciated but lets keep the issues separate.
From where I sit watching, it seems the thread is clearly about taking personal responsibility for ones actions.
Settle down, your point is diminished by your language.
Last edited by Woomera; 9th Sep 2005 at 01:02.
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Heated Ice Detector.
If you put the worst cases as you say in a fast jet that is not set for medivac, you will most probably cause them more damage, at worst kill them!
A Herc may be slower but the mediacl config. is used for a reason. Access to medical gear, patients and safety to all concerned. Medical facilities are designed for ease of use, fast application, good access and many other role specific tasks, now put that into a metal tube that is moving and has reduced space, along with altitude requirements and you start touching the surface of medivac flights.
You want to get into a thrown together set up that will tranport wha is left of you to a hospital....GOOD LUCK, you will need it!
If you put the worst cases as you say in a fast jet that is not set for medivac, you will most probably cause them more damage, at worst kill them!
A Herc may be slower but the mediacl config. is used for a reason. Access to medical gear, patients and safety to all concerned. Medical facilities are designed for ease of use, fast application, good access and many other role specific tasks, now put that into a metal tube that is moving and has reduced space, along with altitude requirements and you start touching the surface of medivac flights.
You want to get into a thrown together set up that will tranport wha is left of you to a hospital....GOOD LUCK, you will need it!
The Reverend
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I couldn't stop making this comparison..
inches of rain in New Orleans due to hurricane Katrina... 18
inches of rain in Mumbai (July 27th).... 37.1
population of New Orleans... 484,674
population of Mumbai.... 12,622,500
deaths in New Orleans within 48 hours of Katrina...100
deaths in Mumbai within 48hours of rain.. 37.
number of people to be evacuated in New Orleans... entire city..
number of people evacuated in Mumbai...10,000
Cases of shooting and violence in New Orleans...Countless
Cases of shooting and violence in Mumbai.. NONE
Time taken for US army to reach New Orleans... 48hours
Time taken for Indian army and navy to reach Mumbai...12hours
status 48hours later...New Orleans is still waiting for relief,
army and electricity
status 48hours later..Mumbai is! back on its feet and is
business as usual
USA...world's most developed nation
India...third world country..
oops...did I get the last fact wrong???
To be fair, the geographic situation of New Orleans is vastly different from Mumbai but the first 48 hours of comparison is very valid.
inches of rain in New Orleans due to hurricane Katrina... 18
inches of rain in Mumbai (July 27th).... 37.1
population of New Orleans... 484,674
population of Mumbai.... 12,622,500
deaths in New Orleans within 48 hours of Katrina...100
deaths in Mumbai within 48hours of rain.. 37.
number of people to be evacuated in New Orleans... entire city..
number of people evacuated in Mumbai...10,000
Cases of shooting and violence in New Orleans...Countless
Cases of shooting and violence in Mumbai.. NONE
Time taken for US army to reach New Orleans... 48hours
Time taken for Indian army and navy to reach Mumbai...12hours
status 48hours later...New Orleans is still waiting for relief,
army and electricity
status 48hours later..Mumbai is! back on its feet and is
business as usual
USA...world's most developed nation
India...third world country..
oops...did I get the last fact wrong???
To be fair, the geographic situation of New Orleans is vastly different from Mumbai but the first 48 hours of comparison is very valid.
HotDog,
Wind strength in Now Orleans - cyclonic
Wind strength in Mumbai - not signficant (?)
Water holding characteristics in New Orleans - like a bathtub
Water holding characteristics in Mumbai - self draining
Wind strength in Now Orleans - cyclonic
Wind strength in Mumbai - not signficant (?)
Water holding characteristics in New Orleans - like a bathtub
Water holding characteristics in Mumbai - self draining
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I'm with Wiley on this one.
I've spent more time than I wished sitting around US airport terminal lounges, coffee shops and bars, it is totally incomprehensible to me that those who flew in before, were not aware of Katrina or ignored the check in advice.
As most of you are aware, there are TVs EVERYWHERE with non stop ESPN, CNN, Fox you name it.
My Foxtel here was chock a block full of it for days before.
I even posted a pic from the satellite [QUOTE] Hurcn Katrina one bad ass girl
This is apparently building up to be the Hurricane of the Century./QUOTE]
on the 29th August.
I'm not suggesting they should be reading PPRuNe for their travel advice simply pointing out that it was hardly buried on page 62 before the sports pages.
Maybe they were vicarious thrillseekers looking for some hometown celebrity, maybe they thought a hurricane was part of the "experience", you can watch em on Foxtel and you don't see anyone get hurt.
who knows.
Maybe we are so used to seeing disaster on TV we think of them as some form of "thrillseekers" entertainment.
mrs gaunty commented last night that the parents of the kid in the slammer must be feeling a bit stupid after their performance slamming the Govt et al, my response was probably not, stupid is as stupid does.
I do understand how they feel, my young brother and his wife were wiped out in Nightcliffe in Tracey and with a fleet of aircraft at my disposal it was very very hard to convince my father early that Christmas morning, that it was not in his nor my brothers best interests, nor would I fly him or anybody in, until the relief people got organised.
And that in any event available seats would be used to get people out not in.
It was very traumatic for him (ex WW2 RAAF Lancaster) and my mother (both usually very calm and super rational people) and relations were a bit strained for a while.
But they were residents, tourists flying in are entirely another issue.
My guess is next time the airlines will under certain conditions refuse to fly them.
I've spent more time than I wished sitting around US airport terminal lounges, coffee shops and bars, it is totally incomprehensible to me that those who flew in before, were not aware of Katrina or ignored the check in advice.
As most of you are aware, there are TVs EVERYWHERE with non stop ESPN, CNN, Fox you name it.
My Foxtel here was chock a block full of it for days before.
I even posted a pic from the satellite [QUOTE] Hurcn Katrina one bad ass girl
This is apparently building up to be the Hurricane of the Century./QUOTE]
on the 29th August.
I'm not suggesting they should be reading PPRuNe for their travel advice simply pointing out that it was hardly buried on page 62 before the sports pages.
Maybe they were vicarious thrillseekers looking for some hometown celebrity, maybe they thought a hurricane was part of the "experience", you can watch em on Foxtel and you don't see anyone get hurt.
who knows. Maybe we are so used to seeing disaster on TV we think of them as some form of "thrillseekers" entertainment.
mrs gaunty commented last night that the parents of the kid in the slammer must be feeling a bit stupid after their performance slamming the Govt et al, my response was probably not, stupid is as stupid does.
I do understand how they feel, my young brother and his wife were wiped out in Nightcliffe in Tracey and with a fleet of aircraft at my disposal it was very very hard to convince my father early that Christmas morning, that it was not in his nor my brothers best interests, nor would I fly him or anybody in, until the relief people got organised.
And that in any event available seats would be used to get people out not in.
It was very traumatic for him (ex WW2 RAAF Lancaster) and my mother (both usually very calm and super rational people) and relations were a bit strained for a while.
But they were residents, tourists flying in are entirely another issue.
My guess is next time the airlines will under certain conditions refuse to fly them.
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check-in staff brought it to their attention, as they had been instructed to do for at least two days prior!
Edited to at least get the right blokes name in the post!
BlueEagle
Thats what one would expect and was a question in my mind. Once again proof not to believe too much of what the media puts forth. - always more to the story.
PS after two attempts you have still to get the name right - a common error and one I'm used to but does annoy just the same.
Edited to at least get the right blokes name in the post!
BlueEagle
Thats what one would expect and was a question in my mind. Once again proof not to believe too much of what the media puts forth. - always more to the story.
PS after two attempts you have still to get the name right - a common error and one I'm used to but does annoy just the same.
Silly Old Git
You just reminded me gaunty we fast approaching another Cyclone season.Dont want one but boy we could sure use some rain for a change.
Tins old house went thru Tracy only lost part of the roof and verandah.
I have stiffened it up a bit since then and its parked on top of one of only a few hills in Darwhine so if the floods reach me here kiss yer arse goodbye in Alice Springs.
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pakeha-boy.
I know exactly what I am talking about as I was flying people out of Darwin without pay, etc, when it was devasted by Cyclone Tracy which occurred probably before you had a licence.
(256 bodies in a B-727-200?)
The point is we have bred a set of whinging, bleeding hearts down here who refuse to accept of take responsibilty for themselves and their actions.
When it goes wrong the first thing they do is blame the government whose fault it defintely is and want the government to spend taxpayers money to bail them out.
I am talking about stupid, dumb Aussie tourists who are continually getting themselves into trouble around the world for the above reasons.
For the genuine people affected by this I understand perfectly and wish I could do more to help having already contributed before writing my post.
DK
I know exactly what I am talking about as I was flying people out of Darwin without pay, etc, when it was devasted by Cyclone Tracy which occurred probably before you had a licence.
(256 bodies in a B-727-200?)
The point is we have bred a set of whinging, bleeding hearts down here who refuse to accept of take responsibilty for themselves and their actions.
When it goes wrong the first thing they do is blame the government whose fault it defintely is and want the government to spend taxpayers money to bail them out.
I am talking about stupid, dumb Aussie tourists who are continually getting themselves into trouble around the world for the above reasons.
For the genuine people affected by this I understand perfectly and wish I could do more to help having already contributed before writing my post.
DK
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tinpis
Yeah my memory is not that flash on it now, but it did take a little while before they were able to mobilise the relief effort.
First priority was to get everyone out.
Young brother was a minor wheel in Transport and Works and a Capt in the Army reserves at the time. But they shipped him and every one else out for health reasons until they could get a grip on the situation.
The clean up was the biggest job with rotten food disposal and disease suppression the priority.
But then you know that.
He was one of the first back in to support the reconstruction of the new Darwin and was there for many years until he was sent down to run the Alice and build new Uluru the road and the airport.
That wasn't your Holden in the Travelodge pool after the Christmas Party perchance, good thing the Cyclone came along to make it look like that tart Tracy dunnit?
Yeah my memory is not that flash on it now, but it did take a little while before they were able to mobilise the relief effort.
First priority was to get everyone out.
Young brother was a minor wheel in Transport and Works and a Capt in the Army reserves at the time. But they shipped him and every one else out for health reasons until they could get a grip on the situation.
The clean up was the biggest job with rotten food disposal and disease suppression the priority.
But then you know that.
He was one of the first back in to support the reconstruction of the new Darwin and was there for many years until he was sent down to run the Alice and build new Uluru the road and the airport.
That wasn't your Holden in the Travelodge pool after the Christmas Party perchance, good thing the Cyclone came along to make it look like that tart Tracy dunnit?
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Any reader have a contact at any one of the women's magazines? Maybe he/she could send the link to this thread to that contact.
Wouldn't it be luverly to see a multi page spread with photos telling the housewives of Australia what idiots these people were rather than giving them the typical 'Hello!' magazine gushy-gushy treatment.
Wouldn't it be luverly to see a multi page spread with photos telling the housewives of Australia what idiots these people were rather than giving them the typical 'Hello!' magazine gushy-gushy treatment.
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Brian Abraham (hope I got his name correct?)
You probably don't read the notices, in BIG print, telling you importation or possession of drugs is subject to the Death penalty either.
(this does not to imply you carry or use them)
DK
You probably don't read the notices, in BIG print, telling you importation or possession of drugs is subject to the Death penalty either.
(this does not to imply you carry or use them)
DK
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Dark Knight which sadly points up the wisdom of that old saw.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him enjoy the view"
It also points up a certain arrogance in young Aussie travellers, they think somehow the local rules don't apply to them also.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him enjoy the view"
It also points up a certain arrogance in young Aussie travellers, they think somehow the local rules don't apply to them also.
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Dark Knight let me tell you of my drug education. My crew chief was leaning over my shoulder through the open door while we did the cool down. The next thing I knew he was lying flat on his back on the ground and I thought ‘silly bugger’. When I saw the blood I came to subsequently realise that an M16 round had penetrated the skins of the open door and hit him in the hip. The base CO apprehended the offender who had been shooting up the flight line and took him for a drive to view the shrubbery outside the main gate. The CO returned solo, Asian justice in this case was to the point. I also had cause to have one of my crew be sent to serve a time in Leavenworth for his indiscretion in shooting up targets against orders. Two ground crew settled an argument over drugs by one giving the other a gut shot with a 45. And I got some what sick and tired of risking myself, crew and aircraft doing combat medevacs of what turned out to be OD’ed grunts. What has been your experience?
I also remember 74 and Tracy very well. At the time I was staff officer to the boss of flying Nowra. We spent the time first of all getting everyone back to work through the media. (God forbid anyone should attack over Xmas – every one on leave). Wessex crews were sent to the carrier which then sailed for Darwin. Food and medical supplies were organised locally and flown to Darwin by HS748 and continued for a period of time that escapes me (31 years is far too long for anyone to recall). I think anyone who had a hand in Tracy can stand proud. Qantas probably still holds the record for the number of bodies lifted by a 747.
Woomera You do a great job in the difficult moderating task but I think you can cut pakea-boy some slack. As you say everyone is entitled to an opinion and paqkea-boy is fresh from the heat of battle and his observation perhaps for the first time of the misery of the human in such extremis conditio
I also remember 74 and Tracy very well. At the time I was staff officer to the boss of flying Nowra. We spent the time first of all getting everyone back to work through the media. (God forbid anyone should attack over Xmas – every one on leave). Wessex crews were sent to the carrier which then sailed for Darwin. Food and medical supplies were organised locally and flown to Darwin by HS748 and continued for a period of time that escapes me (31 years is far too long for anyone to recall). I think anyone who had a hand in Tracy can stand proud. Qantas probably still holds the record for the number of bodies lifted by a 747.
Woomera You do a great job in the difficult moderating task but I think you can cut pakea-boy some slack. As you say everyone is entitled to an opinion and paqkea-boy is fresh from the heat of battle and his observation perhaps for the first time of the misery of the human in such extremis conditio
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Brian, spelling now sorted! Sorry about that.
I think Gaunty hit it on the head when he spoke of the arrogance of youth, how often have we seen them giving the 'bird' to authority without actually having a clue about the dangers that may confront them? Hoons in high powered cars they have no idea how to drive for a start!
I think Gaunty hit it on the head when he spoke of the arrogance of youth, how often have we seen them giving the 'bird' to authority without actually having a clue about the dangers that may confront them? Hoons in high powered cars they have no idea how to drive for a start!