Why do Regionals, RFDS etc treat Instructors like SH*T?
Firstly let me say that I have considerable experience instructing and single pilot IFR operations. I have CFI and CP pilot experience and worked in GA for ten years all single pilot ops before moving on to a major airline. The first time I worked in a multi crew environment was flying an A340. After 7000 hours of single pilot ops I had no problems adapting to a multi crew environment. Instructing as far as I am concerned is not a multi crew environment.
Some of the posts I have read here are to be frank, garbage. The belief that instructors are not as good as a charter pilot is just a laughable as the furphy that single pilot charter pilots with considerable hours find it difficult to adapt to a multi crew environment. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that this is the case. There will always be isolated cases of some finding the going tough but in my experience the failure rate is the same right across the whole industry whether the applicant comes from a charter, instructing, multi crew, military or cadet background. The ones that I see that sometimes have the greatest difficulty in our operation are cadets that have been S/O’s for three or four years and come up for their F/O upgrade. Having not flown for a number of years and having very little experience to fall back on they sometimes have a hard going of it.
The Bunglerat
I have never seen a LOFT session that is truly representative of the real world and the types of pressures a line driver would experience in abnormal operations. I have seen it so unrealistic that you would see multiple failures that were totally unrelated to each other. Frankly I think they were designed to load the crew up to breaking point rather than to teach them something. I have seen just as many very experienced captains fluff it up as I have F/O’s and new S/O’s. All are from a wide range of backgrounds.
I agree totally. I was fortunate enough to do both for about five years each and I know the strengths and weakness both bring to a major airline, multi crew environment. I can assure you though having a large amount of single pilot IFR hours isn’t one of those weaknesses.
Some of the posts I have read here are to be frank, garbage. The belief that instructors are not as good as a charter pilot is just a laughable as the furphy that single pilot charter pilots with considerable hours find it difficult to adapt to a multi crew environment. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that this is the case. There will always be isolated cases of some finding the going tough but in my experience the failure rate is the same right across the whole industry whether the applicant comes from a charter, instructing, multi crew, military or cadet background. The ones that I see that sometimes have the greatest difficulty in our operation are cadets that have been S/O’s for three or four years and come up for their F/O upgrade. Having not flown for a number of years and having very little experience to fall back on they sometimes have a hard going of it.
The Bunglerat
I have seen some of those aforementioned charter aces, with their thousands of hours' single-pilot IFR experience, completely fall apart when faced with some of the exercises thrust upon them in multi-crew/LOFT training. Many of these guys are simply ill-equipped to adapt to a multi-crew environment.
Maybe the best candidate is someone who can boast experience in charter AND instructing.
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Nice post 404 Titan.
The bunglerat, I agree completely WRT the above, but the rest of your post I do not. I remember doing LOFT training in a sim then a duchess as a student. I have since done plenty of real multi-crew turbine operations, and it is nothing at all like the real world.
In some ways the cadet is easier to train into the multi-crew environment initially as the have not flown enough to have developed habits, and aling with that they also do not bring any experience. An experienced Single-pilot IFR, may (and will depend on the individual entirely) take longer than a 200hr cadet to get up to speed with PROCEDURES, but will bring with him/her a hell of a lot more experience.
Knowing SOPs and checklists does NOT make you a good pilot alone. Many people that train QF cadets, for example, never make it into QF (i am not suggesting the QF recruitment process is perfect either!)
Maybe the best candidate is someone who can boast experience in charter AND instructing
In some ways the cadet is easier to train into the multi-crew environment initially as the have not flown enough to have developed habits, and aling with that they also do not bring any experience. An experienced Single-pilot IFR, may (and will depend on the individual entirely) take longer than a 200hr cadet to get up to speed with PROCEDURES, but will bring with him/her a hell of a lot more experience.
Knowing SOPs and checklists does NOT make you a good pilot alone. Many people that train QF cadets, for example, never make it into QF (i am not suggesting the QF recruitment process is perfect either!)
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This rears it's head every now and then, ah well, my 20c worth.
1. have done both Instructing and single pilot IFR.
2.either or...no
3.It is the attitude and approach taken by the candidate to training and line flying that will see them through. Experience will certainly determain to a degree how easy it will be but as has been said previously, If the candidate has the apptitude and overall experience then there is a good chance.
4. this instructor v charter cr@p just gets up my nose
1. have done both Instructing and single pilot IFR.
2.either or...no
3.It is the attitude and approach taken by the candidate to training and line flying that will see them through. Experience will certainly determain to a degree how easy it will be but as has been said previously, If the candidate has the apptitude and overall experience then there is a good chance.
4. this instructor v charter cr@p just gets up my nose
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Plenty of good advice
Seems there is plenty of good advice here. I personally know quite a few instructors in good Regional/Airline jobs. But, I don't know any that have gone straight from instructing to Airline. They all gave away the instructing and got charter experience first (whether you agree with the necessity or not). Several gave up good jobs, to go and live in some less than comfortable environments, just to get charter time. But in the end it worked.
Also, with instructing you tend to be dealing with people at the bottom on the up, in charter you make a lot of useful contacts, guys that have been there and done that (the real ones).
Also, not meant to be nasty, but you sound like my ex....
When are ya gunna get a real job???
Good luck. Hope my 2 cents worth helps.
Also, with instructing you tend to be dealing with people at the bottom on the up, in charter you make a lot of useful contacts, guys that have been there and done that (the real ones).
Also, not meant to be nasty, but you sound like my ex....
Not always a pilot you see, have had real jobs prior to this career
Good luck. Hope my 2 cents worth helps.
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Thanks for your input Titan. If some pilots' experience with LOFT have been one of being loaded up with non-normal after non-normal followed by umpteen catastrophic events until they break, that's certainly not the way we run it here.
A typical exercise would take the form of a BN-SY sector, with a late departure due to connecting pax. Weather at destination is always at or close to minima, and in some cases a limited alternate may need to be invoked. If the crew experience a non-normal in flight, it may be something like an EICAS message advising of a bleed duct leak or maybe a generator failure - hardly anything of an immediate life-threatening nature, but enough to keep the crew on their toes. As always time management is of the essence, but I don't see anything in this scenario that comes across as unrealistic in the way you inferred.
As I said in my earlier post, I am not having a go at charter pilots. They have their own set of skills and experience that can be invaluable to an airline operation. Nevertheless, I get fed up with some peoples' attitudes that instructors simply have nothing of value to provide an employer. However, I did qualify my earlier remarks by acknowledging that there's instructing - and then there's instructing. I have experience in both, and I believe they complement each other.
And I personally know of quite a few instructors who have gone directly to the major airlines.
A typical exercise would take the form of a BN-SY sector, with a late departure due to connecting pax. Weather at destination is always at or close to minima, and in some cases a limited alternate may need to be invoked. If the crew experience a non-normal in flight, it may be something like an EICAS message advising of a bleed duct leak or maybe a generator failure - hardly anything of an immediate life-threatening nature, but enough to keep the crew on their toes. As always time management is of the essence, but I don't see anything in this scenario that comes across as unrealistic in the way you inferred.
As I said in my earlier post, I am not having a go at charter pilots. They have their own set of skills and experience that can be invaluable to an airline operation. Nevertheless, I get fed up with some peoples' attitudes that instructors simply have nothing of value to provide an employer. However, I did qualify my earlier remarks by acknowledging that there's instructing - and then there's instructing. I have experience in both, and I believe they complement each other.
And I personally know of quite a few instructors who have gone directly to the major airlines.
The Bunglerat
May I suggest that you have fallen into the same trap as those that bag instructing experience? While you have Acknowledged charter pilots do have qualities that airlines are looking for, the first quote doesn’t do your argument any credit.
It is a fact that airlines in this region employ a wide range of pilots from various backgrounds. They do this for a very good reason because they all bring qualities that the airline is look for. They also bring with them bad qualities, which their training department will have to spend time knocking out of them. It is true that some single pilot IFR drivers find it a bit tough adapting to a multi crew environment but no more than an instructor going into his first multi crew job. Airlines employ commanders, not F/O’s or S/O’s. They are looking for someone that can make command decisions. One of the qualities that single pilot IFR drivers generally display if they make it through an airlines selection process is a very good command decision ability.
I have seen some of those aforementioned charter aces, with their thousands of hours' single-pilot IFR experience, completely fall apart when faced with some of the exercises thrust upon them in multi-crew/LOFT training. Many of these guys are simply ill-equipped to adapt to a multi-crew environment.
As I said in my earlier post, I am not having a go at charter pilots. They have their own set of skills and experience that can be invaluable to an airline operation. Nevertheless, I get fed up with some peoples' attitudes that instructors simply have nothing of value to provide an employer.
It is a fact that airlines in this region employ a wide range of pilots from various backgrounds. They do this for a very good reason because they all bring qualities that the airline is look for. They also bring with them bad qualities, which their training department will have to spend time knocking out of them. It is true that some single pilot IFR drivers find it a bit tough adapting to a multi crew environment but no more than an instructor going into his first multi crew job. Airlines employ commanders, not F/O’s or S/O’s. They are looking for someone that can make command decisions. One of the qualities that single pilot IFR drivers generally display if they make it through an airlines selection process is a very good command decision ability.
404 Titan. You say that airlines employ "Commanders" not F/Os or S/O's. Try telling that to any interview board that you are there to be a "Commander" and not a snotty nose second or third in command. There is no way that an airline interview board can tell whether or not you will eventually get a command. What they are looking for at the time of interview is a qualified bum in the right hand seat or in the third jump seat at the back. In later years after exposure to the particular airline culture, then and only then, will the system (governed primarily by seniority as well as ability) assess the copilot as a potential "Commander".
I must say you must be pretty damned good yourself to go straight on to an A340 after only single pilot time. There are a few hundred single pilot IFR drivers would like to know which airline offers such jobs. Do tell.
I must say you must be pretty damned good yourself to go straight on to an A340 after only single pilot time. There are a few hundred single pilot IFR drivers would like to know which airline offers such jobs. Do tell.
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Airlines employ commanders, not F/O’s or S/O’s. They are looking for someone that can make command decisions.
One of the qualities that single pilot IFR drivers generally display if they make it through an airlines selection process is a very good command decision ability.
It is a fact that airlines in this region employ a wide range of pilots from various backgrounds. They do this for a very good reason because they all bring qualities that the airline is look for.
Airlines may be looking for some of the attributes of either a charter pilot or an instructor, but only in a secondary sense. What they really want are those who can adapt to an airline operating environment quickly and effectively.
...the furphy that single pilot charter pilots with considerable hours find it difficult to adapt to a multi crew environment. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that this is the case.
Centaurus
Oh boy where do I start? When I made the reference to the fact that airlines employ commanders, I didn’t mean that they employ direct entry commanders. They employ people that have command potential and are promotable to commander when their number comes up. There is absolutely no point employing someone that is going to be a career S/O or F/O in a career airline. That is the way we interview at CX and it is to my understanding the way QF, KA, EK, SQ and NZ do it from people I have spoken to in these companies that would know. We make a very very big deal about it in the selection process and spend a considerable amount of time after the interview discussing command potential of all applicants regardless whether they are being interviewed for S/O, F/O or cadet positions. It is imperative for us to get it right as we don’t employ direct entry captains. This is not to say that we don’t get it wrong because we do. Like all airlines, we do have those that fail their commands from time to time.
There is. CX hires direct entry S/O’s onto the A340 and both CX and QF do the same onto the B744. A number of applicants only have single pilot IFR time.
MOR
For the last 4 years we have been using team work exercises as part of our selection process for S/O and F/O recruits. Applicants from single pilot IFR backgrounds don’t fare any worse than instructors. Even military guys aren’t perfect though they do stand out as being better than most.
We on average employ people from much more diverse backgrounds on a consistent basis than most Australian airlines do because there isn’t any domestic supply of pilots readily available. If we wanted to we could employ all ex-military drivers from North America, Australia, New Zealand and Europe for the next ten years to supply our expansion plans. They are well trained and very experienced and come with a known reputation. We don’t do this because as you say there is a diverse range of pilots available and for us we are looking to have a diverse range of qualities and backgrounds that each bring to the company. They all bring bad qualities as well which we have to deal with in the training environment.
I agree. I will also add that if any particular type of pilot brings bad qualities that resulted in them taking consistently longer to adapt to an airline operating environment, we would avoid hiring them. Single pilot IFR drivers in our experience aren’t any worse or better than instructors. The only group of pilots that sometimes stands out are older experienced drivers from all backgrounds that are sometimes stuck in their ways.
Show me.
Oh boy where do I start? When I made the reference to the fact that airlines employ commanders, I didn’t mean that they employ direct entry commanders. They employ people that have command potential and are promotable to commander when their number comes up. There is absolutely no point employing someone that is going to be a career S/O or F/O in a career airline. That is the way we interview at CX and it is to my understanding the way QF, KA, EK, SQ and NZ do it from people I have spoken to in these companies that would know. We make a very very big deal about it in the selection process and spend a considerable amount of time after the interview discussing command potential of all applicants regardless whether they are being interviewed for S/O, F/O or cadet positions. It is imperative for us to get it right as we don’t employ direct entry captains. This is not to say that we don’t get it wrong because we do. Like all airlines, we do have those that fail their commands from time to time.
I must say you must be pretty damned good yourself to go straight on to an A340 after only single pilot time. There are a few hundred single pilot IFR drivers would like to know which airline offers such jobs. Do tell.
MOR
...and one of the other qualities they generally display is an inability to work as part of a team.
It is a fact that airlines in this region employ a wide range of pilots from various backgrounds. They do this for a very good reason because they all bring qualities that the airline is look for.
No they don't, they do it because the available pool of pilots is from a diverse range of backgrounds.
Airlines may be looking for some of the attributes of either a charter pilot or an instructor, but only in a secondary sense. What they really want are those who can adapt to an airline operating environment quickly and effectively.
...the furphy that single pilot charter pilots with considerable hours find it difficult to adapt to a multi crew environment. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that this is the case.
There is.
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For the last 4 years we have been using team work exercises as part of our selection process for S/O and F/O recruits. Applicants from single pilot IFR backgrounds don’t fare any worse than instructors. Even military guys aren’t perfect though they do stand out as being better than most.
If we wanted to we could employ all ex-military drivers from North America, Australia, New Zealand and Europe for the next ten years to supply our expansion plans.
Single pilot IFR drivers in our experience aren’t any worse or better than instructors.
Show me.
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agree with MAXGRAD
this my background is better than yours is baby-ish. Everybody needs to grow up. Where I work there are 1500 hour flight instructors that can fly better than 7000 hour B-52 pilots...(the B-52 guy washed out of training the instructor did not). Everybody thinks they're better. Like death the sim is the great leveler.
this my background is better than yours is baby-ish. Everybody needs to grow up. Where I work there are 1500 hour flight instructors that can fly better than 7000 hour B-52 pilots...(the B-52 guy washed out of training the instructor did not). Everybody thinks they're better. Like death the sim is the great leveler.
MOR
This is getting boring. I will leave you to believe what you want to believe. We work on what we have found to be the best formula for us over many many years of recruiting pilots. One thing we a very good at is selecting people that work very well in a multi-crew environment. Our previous LOSA audit by the University of Texas showed we were very strong in this area. If your outfit has a problem with a particular group of pilots then maybe there is something wrong with your recruitment process and you need to take a look at it??
I have read many studies on the qualities of pilots from different backgrounds and frankly they are not consistent in their findings. I have my theories as to their inconsistencies which are too long to explain here. Anyway this thread is getting off topic. If you want to debate it further maybe we should start a new thread instead of hijacking this one which is about the Regionals and the RFDS and why they treat Instructors like crap?
druglord
Agree 100%.
This is getting boring. I will leave you to believe what you want to believe. We work on what we have found to be the best formula for us over many many years of recruiting pilots. One thing we a very good at is selecting people that work very well in a multi-crew environment. Our previous LOSA audit by the University of Texas showed we were very strong in this area. If your outfit has a problem with a particular group of pilots then maybe there is something wrong with your recruitment process and you need to take a look at it??
I have read many studies on the qualities of pilots from different backgrounds and frankly they are not consistent in their findings. I have my theories as to their inconsistencies which are too long to explain here. Anyway this thread is getting off topic. If you want to debate it further maybe we should start a new thread instead of hijacking this one which is about the Regionals and the RFDS and why they treat Instructors like crap?
druglord
Agree 100%.
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I will leave you to believe what you want to believe.
I'll also point out that, after 4 or 5 years in CX, I don't believe for a minute that you are in any way involved in training, in fact I don't believe you even have a command.
I therefore have no faith whatsoever in your views on the subject, irrespective of what you might have read. There is little point in discussing it.
Now you have a very nice day...
Last edited by MOR; 8th May 2005 at 15:37.
MOR
I never said I was, mind you I could get one tomorrow on the freighter fleet if I wanted to. Our recruitment department is made up of many people of various backgrounds, not just senior captains. Do you always look down at F/O’s with such contempt? You would get on real well in our organisation, NOT. You would be the type of captain that would be a pain in the a**e to fly with. A real dinosaur.
I never said I was, mind you I could get one tomorrow on the freighter fleet if I wanted to. Our recruitment department is made up of many people of various backgrounds, not just senior captains. Do you always look down at F/O’s with such contempt? You would get on real well in our organisation, NOT. You would be the type of captain that would be a pain in the a**e to fly with. A real dinosaur.
My point was that Single Pilot IFR drivers are no worse or better than instructors when it comes to getting airline jobs. The RFDS though quite rightly want someone with considerable bush time as well as IF etc etc. A person that only has instructing time may find themselves at a considerable disadvantage for this type of job.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 9th May 2005 at 00:38.
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Do you always look down at F/O’s with such contempt?
Nope, any contempt I might have is reserved for people who come on here and wax lyrical about areas they have no expertise in. You claim to have all this deep knowledge of the issues surrounding the transition from single pilot IFR to multi-crew flying, but the reality is that you don't carry out that training, are not present when those assessments are made, and have only second-hand knowledge of the training issues involved.
The use of such phrases as "we work on..." and "we have found..." are somewhat misleading, what you mean is "our training department works on", etc.
The fact that you now feel the need to become insulting and abusive tells me all I need to know about the "culture" you work in, and reveals who would really be a PITA to work with.
Now I'll let you get back to impressing everybody with your intimate knowledge of airline training departments.
Have a VERY nice day.
Zhaadum ,
To answer your query and divert from the above slagging match, may I suggest trying to leave the instructing for the moment and gain some other experience.
You have "ticked" the Instructing box for now... you may get back into it latter with a Regional/Major as a Checky, who knows... but it sounds time to broaden your perspective and experience.
This can be done with another field of flying (Low Level - Ag/Float/Turbine charter/Mustering/Fire spotting/Corporate jet/Jump pilot/Cargo...), in the hope of developing a more rounded and stable individual with a wider background of experience to call on... This is what WE look for in prospective applicants.
I hope this makes some sense and best of luck, as the industry in this region (Asia/Pacific) is to boom.
To answer your query and divert from the above slagging match, may I suggest trying to leave the instructing for the moment and gain some other experience.
You have "ticked" the Instructing box for now... you may get back into it latter with a Regional/Major as a Checky, who knows... but it sounds time to broaden your perspective and experience.
This can be done with another field of flying (Low Level - Ag/Float/Turbine charter/Mustering/Fire spotting/Corporate jet/Jump pilot/Cargo...), in the hope of developing a more rounded and stable individual with a wider background of experience to call on... This is what WE look for in prospective applicants.
I hope this makes some sense and best of luck, as the industry in this region (Asia/Pacific) is to boom.