Hoe do you accomplish this?
Thread Starter
Hoe do you accomplish this?
Runway alignment 11/29, inbound track 343, advised make visual approach with requirement to not below 3000' until established on final.
Just though I would throw a few of these out there as they are fairly common at this destination??
Just though I would throw a few of these out there as they are fairly common at this destination??
Bottums Up
In the current climate, where we haven't contributed to our poor state of insecurity but are paying the price with an over-zealous security regime none-the-less, a hoe would probably be deemed a dangerous weapon, likely to be used to hijack your aircraft, and cause it to fly into a high rise building. Does Darwin have any?
Now to the question....
One would continue tracking to the VOR until within the circling area and not descend below 3000'. Once you've established yourself on final at not more that 4.2nm from the 29 threshold, you would then commence an orbit to lose the required height to fly a stabilised approach.
If your mark-1 eye ball is really good, you could commence descent at the instant you are 4.2nm from the threshold and then losing 690' per nm @ I'd guess 120 KIAS, with a ROD of 1400 FPM, hope that the pax don't hear the EGPWS squark "sink rate sink rate" and that bloke in the next seat doesn't dob you in.
Just don't forget to "confirm visual approach"!
Now to the question....
One would continue tracking to the VOR until within the circling area and not descend below 3000'. Once you've established yourself on final at not more that 4.2nm from the 29 threshold, you would then commence an orbit to lose the required height to fly a stabilised approach.
If your mark-1 eye ball is really good, you could commence descent at the instant you are 4.2nm from the threshold and then losing 690' per nm @ I'd guess 120 KIAS, with a ROD of 1400 FPM, hope that the pax don't hear the EGPWS squark "sink rate sink rate" and that bloke in the next seat doesn't dob you in.
Just don't forget to "confirm visual approach"!
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Sounds ridiculous to me. (Assuming sea level'ish airport)
If given that instruction I would ask "How do you want me to do that?"
The obvious solution is a 10nm final, but a VSA doesn't authorise you to deviate outisde 5nm - so.... search me!
If given that instruction I would ask "How do you want me to do that?"
The obvious solution is a 10nm final, but a VSA doesn't authorise you to deviate outisde 5nm - so.... search me!
Thread Starter
Not sure about the orbit Claret, once you commence the turn you are no longer established on final?? or maybe you only need to be established and then descend and then it doesn't matter??
I didn't have to readback VSA as when I read back the 3000' requirement he seemed happy!!
Uncommonsense
Correct close enough to MSL 103'.
I didn't have to readback VSA as when I read back the 3000' requirement he seemed happy!!
Uncommonsense
Correct close enough to MSL 103'.
Last edited by RENURPP; 18th Feb 2005 at 03:35.
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I'm with Capt Claret there up to establishing aircraft on long final at 3,000 ft, then deploy speed brakes....
... and see that bugger sink......he-he-he
Just putting my 2 cents in
Deltasix
... and see that bugger sink......he-he-heJust putting my 2 cents in
Deltasix
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OK - it's DN. Figures.
I would be asking for clarification from the SATCO or whatever the MIL call them. Perhaps a call after landing (or going around!) is in order.
Maybe you can do it in an F18 but bit tight in anything that drinks petrol.
I am trying to think what the limitation at 2000FT is as well ??
I would be asking for clarification from the SATCO or whatever the MIL call them. Perhaps a call after landing (or going around!) is in order.
Maybe you can do it in an F18 but bit tight in anything that drinks petrol.
I am trying to think what the limitation at 2000FT is as well ??
Thread Starter
I expect they actually wanted us to track for a 10 mile final and then straight in and not descend below 3000 until on final. ATC not being aware of the requirements of a visual approach.
Being Darwin and hearing this type of thing often, I tongue in cheek thought I would ask the question.
Being Darwin and hearing this type of thing often, I tongue in cheek thought I would ask the question.
Last edited by RENURPP; 18th Feb 2005 at 04:33.
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Are you sure you weren't "Cleared direct to final, cleared visual approach, not below three thousand till on final "
Pretty common clearance in Adelaide, the 'Track direct to final, cleared visual approach", and at night, "not below 2600 till on Vasis "
Pretty common clearance in Adelaide, the 'Track direct to final, cleared visual approach", and at night, "not below 2600 till on Vasis "
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I wish we could be given that. The trafficers give us Visual approach via the 15 mile arc. 
Very annoying when they use the "Traffic Management Plan" when there is stuff all traffic.
Better start entering DN airspace < F140 , so they can't assign the 15 mile arc.
Very annoying when they use the "Traffic Management Plan" when there is stuff all traffic. Better start entering DN airspace < F140 , so they can't assign the 15 mile arc.
Thread Starter
Icarus2001
I have been in Darwin 15 yrs. I have been through the ring the satco idea simply doesn't work.
Bit like trying to get through to Telstra complaints, and when you finally do get a reasonable response!!
I accept that it won't ever get any better why the RAAF are in Darwin.
I have been in Darwin 15 yrs. I have been through the ring the satco idea simply doesn't work.
Bit like trying to get through to Telstra complaints, and when you finally do get a reasonable response!!
I accept that it won't ever get any better why the RAAF are in Darwin.
Led to beleive that the SATCO in Darwin is ex Townsville. While he was in Townsville he was always very approachable. He even was quite often found in the Aero Club bar.
Find it hard to beleive that you cannot get in contact with SATCO.
Find it hard to beleive that you cannot get in contact with SATCO.
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Ah, it never ends. Good old Darwin. RENURPP, if you can't do it, say so. If the duty runway is 29 and you ask for 11, it doesn't hurt does it? Same goes the other way. If ATC ask you to do something and you can't, knock it back. Sure as hell they will knock you back if they can't fit you in for he non-duty.
A big problem up there is the lack of experience. They have tried to overcome this problem by having full time defence civilian positions there (as well as every other base) to kep some local knowledge around. They are trying. The RAAF will be there forever more I'm afraid - they are reluctant to give up their forward base.
The SATCO is now known as the Detachment Commander, and the current one has worked there before this posting. A very reasonable and approachable bloke.
Anyway, cheers for now,
NFR.
A big problem up there is the lack of experience. They have tried to overcome this problem by having full time defence civilian positions there (as well as every other base) to kep some local knowledge around. They are trying. The RAAF will be there forever more I'm afraid - they are reluctant to give up their forward base.
The SATCO is now known as the Detachment Commander, and the current one has worked there before this posting. A very reasonable and approachable bloke.
Anyway, cheers for now,
NFR.
Bottums Up
G'day NFR,
It's not a case of he couldn't do it, it's a case of the instruction was not accomplishable. To fly a visual approach at night, one must track to within the circling area before leaving LSA/MSA, not withstanding being established on the VASIS or ILS glideslope, which don't apply to this scenario. If there is then a 3000' limitation placed until established on final, it means that no transport category aircraft that I'm familiar can fly a stable approach (Vref/Vapp +10-5; not more that one dot high/low; no more than 1/2 scale deflection on the glideslope; max RoD 1000 fpm < 1000' AGL).
Most pilots could fly it but it could be a bit ugly if the high sink rate isn't caught early enough. And, the squarks from the GPWS can be heard through much of the cabin of the 146, courtesy of the sophisticated engineering of the enhanced (and I use that word very loosley!) cockpit door.
It's not a case of he couldn't do it, it's a case of the instruction was not accomplishable. To fly a visual approach at night, one must track to within the circling area before leaving LSA/MSA, not withstanding being established on the VASIS or ILS glideslope, which don't apply to this scenario. If there is then a 3000' limitation placed until established on final, it means that no transport category aircraft that I'm familiar can fly a stable approach (Vref/Vapp +10-5; not more that one dot high/low; no more than 1/2 scale deflection on the glideslope; max RoD 1000 fpm < 1000' AGL).
Most pilots could fly it but it could be a bit ugly if the high sink rate isn't caught early enough. And, the squarks from the GPWS can be heard through much of the cabin of the 146, courtesy of the sophisticated engineering of the enhanced (and I use that word very loosley!) cockpit door.
RENURPP,
I dont see the problem with this at all...the commencement of finals for the ILS is at 8.2 DME/ 3000ft, 25 nm MSA is 1600 ft.
Finals for the RW 29 ILS is the LOC/GS intcept. For the LLZ the FAF is at the OM/3.1 DME/GPS DN VOR.
If you did this you would be within the Visual Approach rules ENR 1.14. b (6).
Normal 3 degree approach, standard rate of descent.
Where is the problem ?
I dont see the problem with this at all...the commencement of finals for the ILS is at 8.2 DME/ 3000ft, 25 nm MSA is 1600 ft.
Finals for the RW 29 ILS is the LOC/GS intcept. For the LLZ the FAF is at the OM/3.1 DME/GPS DN VOR.
If you did this you would be within the Visual Approach rules ENR 1.14. b (6).
Normal 3 degree approach, standard rate of descent.
Where is the problem ?
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Hey Clarrie,
Sorry, didn't realise it was at night - kind of makes a difference! The best bet, as has been suggested, would be to contact the ATC management and bring it to their attention. It is a safety matter and needs to be addressed. It's a team game in which we are all constantly learning. Im sure if it was the other way around (ie, aircrew asking the impossible of ATC) the operator would want to hear about it.
Cheers,
NFR.
PS Do they still have the pilot-controller meetings and the Tower parties, or has it died?
Sorry, didn't realise it was at night - kind of makes a difference! The best bet, as has been suggested, would be to contact the ATC management and bring it to their attention. It is a safety matter and needs to be addressed. It's a team game in which we are all constantly learning. Im sure if it was the other way around (ie, aircrew asking the impossible of ATC) the operator would want to hear about it.
Cheers,
NFR.
PS Do they still have the pilot-controller meetings and the Tower parties, or has it died?
Bottums Up
SWH
The inbound track of 343 and the localiser alignment of 285 preclude using the localiser or vasis to allow descent below LSALT/MSA, and therefore one would have to track, in this case not below 3000' until inside the circling area (Cat C aircraft 4.2nm), then maintain 3000' until established on final at a max 4.2nm.
The inbound track of 343 and the localiser alignment of 285 preclude using the localiser or vasis to allow descent below LSALT/MSA, and therefore one would have to track, in this case not below 3000' until inside the circling area (Cat C aircraft 4.2nm), then maintain 3000' until established on final at a max 4.2nm.
Capt Claret,
Why ?
The 25 nm MSA on the ILS/DME/GPS Arrival Procedure is 1600 ft....and your above the appropiate step for the DME or GPS arrival (3000 ft is the 30 nm step on Sector B (200 to 002 DN VOR)
Why ?
The 25 nm MSA on the ILS/DME/GPS Arrival Procedure is 1600 ft....and your above the appropiate step for the DME or GPS arrival (3000 ft is the 30 nm step on Sector B (200 to 002 DN VOR)