Is there a Shortage?
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Is there a Shortage?
G'day
Getting very mixed stories from different areas. Just wondering if any of you who are currently working as pilots can let me know what the state of the industry is in. Just saw another thread on here about pilots looking for work and it mentioned about a shortage. Is this really the case that there is a shortage, or is it a bit of a wind up. Is there positive movement in the industry or is that only for high timers who have be stuck in GA for along time.
There seems to be alot of stories about movement and jobs up in asia, are these airlines looking at low timers or not.
Can anyone give some clarfication at where they think Aviation is at present and where is it going the next year. Are we heading towords a shortage. I became confused about what was written in NZ on a shortage over there. If that is the case where do I sign up and I'm off to NZ.
All the Best
Getting very mixed stories from different areas. Just wondering if any of you who are currently working as pilots can let me know what the state of the industry is in. Just saw another thread on here about pilots looking for work and it mentioned about a shortage. Is this really the case that there is a shortage, or is it a bit of a wind up. Is there positive movement in the industry or is that only for high timers who have be stuck in GA for along time.
There seems to be alot of stories about movement and jobs up in asia, are these airlines looking at low timers or not.
Can anyone give some clarfication at where they think Aviation is at present and where is it going the next year. Are we heading towords a shortage. I became confused about what was written in NZ on a shortage over there. If that is the case where do I sign up and I'm off to NZ.
All the Best
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Can't comment on what's happening over there, but in NZ things are moving quite nicely. Airlines are saying there is a shortage - all this means is that they have difficulty finding the experienced employees they have had on tap in past few years. This is mainly due to good hiring rates by Air NZ and to a lesser extent Cathay Pacific.
What does this mean for your average GA pilot? Simple, you can expect to get an interview with a regional airline sooner than you may have a couple of years ago. Ballpark figures are 1000 hrs total with 300 multi, or 1500+ total with less multi (for entry level regionals flying mainly 19 seaters).
What does this mean for your average GA pilot? Simple, you can expect to get an interview with a regional airline sooner than you may have a couple of years ago. Ballpark figures are 1000 hrs total with 300 multi, or 1500+ total with less multi (for entry level regionals flying mainly 19 seaters).
There is not, never has been, and never will be a pilot shortage for entry-level pilots into GA in Australia or New Zealand. This is a common furfy put out by the flying school industry to generate business. Where the shortages sometimes arise is in the requirement of experienced drivers for the majors, regionals and certain GA operators. If you are experienced, the boom times can be good because it may give you the opportunity to pick and choose a better job. If you are straight out of flying school, sorry but it is still very much cutthroat out there and the reality is that 3 out of 4 will never get a job flying.
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Allingoodtime
Your name says it all.
In time if you hang around working in GA you will get up to the hours where there is a shortage of high time pilots for certin jobs in Aust Aviation.
Icarus has a good thread on ATPL numbers which has a link to an article from the CASA newsletter, in which they list the number of CPL pilots who DON'T work as pilots. This number is truly scary and not one the schools would like you to see.
A short while ago I would have scoffed at 404's "3 out of 4 pilots not working in the industry" clam. But it is all too true.
All the best, if you want it you can do it, many before you have made it. So look at the ones who have done it and done it well. Do as they have done and you will get there.
Richo
Your name says it all.
In time if you hang around working in GA you will get up to the hours where there is a shortage of high time pilots for certin jobs in Aust Aviation.
Icarus has a good thread on ATPL numbers which has a link to an article from the CASA newsletter, in which they list the number of CPL pilots who DON'T work as pilots. This number is truly scary and not one the schools would like you to see.
A short while ago I would have scoffed at 404's "3 out of 4 pilots not working in the industry" clam. But it is all too true.
All the best, if you want it you can do it, many before you have made it. So look at the ones who have done it and done it well. Do as they have done and you will get there.
Richo
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Shortage ?
Low timers - NO, 2 cents in a dollar - due to newly graduated CPLs facing unemployment or under employment. Not enough employers to give them a shot ( at least ).
High timers(experienced) YES - slowly drying up.
D6
Low timers - NO, 2 cents in a dollar - due to newly graduated CPLs facing unemployment or under employment. Not enough employers to give them a shot ( at least ).
High timers(experienced) YES - slowly drying up.
D6
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Lack of Suitable Candidates
Most definitely. We have cancelled several days of sim/interviews both last and this month, due to an inability to get suitable candidates. The days that are running are not fully utilised either.
Make of that what you will.
Make of that what you will.
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And the only way they can become "suitable" is through good experience. Which is a bit hard if they havent got enough hours.
And almost no charter company or airline would take in a 300 hour CPL ( in Oz anyway - I think )
So, its a catch 22. It dries up in the high experienced area while we have these new CPLs clamoring for a shot. But wont take them in as they lack experience.
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg ?
DeltaSix
And almost no charter company or airline would take in a 300 hour CPL ( in Oz anyway - I think )
So, its a catch 22. It dries up in the high experienced area while we have these new CPLs clamoring for a shot. But wont take them in as they lack experience.
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg ?
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Hugh Jarse
Just wondering what company you are referring to regarding sim/interviews.
Does suitable mean 500hrs multi command, 100 night and 5 renewals?
There are a lot of operators out their still with the old boys club RAAF fast jet brigade mentality where they think they require certain level of flying experience or skill to do a relatively simple job, ie charter or rpt.
I realise that it is mostly insurance based, but eventually these operators will be paying cheap premiums for aircraft they cannot pilot due no SUITABLE (possibly overly experienced) pilots.
An example with a Cairns based operator who
requires 400 - 500hrs multi command, 50 night, 3 renewals to fly pistons for at least another 12 months. Why not just go fly turbines? Eagle Air in NZ are taking pilots with 1000hrs total 100hrs multi command to fly beech 19s with a command in 12 - 24 months. Just an example outside Aus.
GA in this country will eventually settle down and catch up to the rest of the world - pilot progression, pay and conditions will become more realistic.
Having said all this the above mentioned GA operator (not Eagle) does operate to a high standard and pays very well compared to most.
Just wondering what company you are referring to regarding sim/interviews.
Does suitable mean 500hrs multi command, 100 night and 5 renewals?
There are a lot of operators out their still with the old boys club RAAF fast jet brigade mentality where they think they require certain level of flying experience or skill to do a relatively simple job, ie charter or rpt.
I realise that it is mostly insurance based, but eventually these operators will be paying cheap premiums for aircraft they cannot pilot due no SUITABLE (possibly overly experienced) pilots.
An example with a Cairns based operator who
requires 400 - 500hrs multi command, 50 night, 3 renewals to fly pistons for at least another 12 months. Why not just go fly turbines? Eagle Air in NZ are taking pilots with 1000hrs total 100hrs multi command to fly beech 19s with a command in 12 - 24 months. Just an example outside Aus.
GA in this country will eventually settle down and catch up to the rest of the world - pilot progression, pay and conditions will become more realistic.
Having said all this the above mentioned GA operator (not Eagle) does operate to a high standard and pays very well compared to most.
Last edited by captwawa; 18th Feb 2005 at 05:57.
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Its because aviation companies won't train!
The industry complaint that there is not enough experienced drivers is an indicator of problems with your average aviation employer, not the pool of pilots available.
This industry persists in recognising only hours in the seat as an indicator of pilot quality.
I have sat next to some appallingly poor pilots that had bags of experience. AirNorth went through a phase of hiring high time Metro 23 captains and wondered why the hell they were having troubles ranging from customer service issues to poor paperwork and, on investigation, all the way through to rule breaking and exceeding aircraft limitations.
Frinstance, one fellow who was hired with 6,000+ metro time.
Nobody questioned why this guy had worked for three other operators... he was not retrenched, he was terminated by companies that were still in business.
Regularly exceeding VMO in descents, getting FO's to pull the audible warning circuit breaker, running the engines at MCP all day, departing ahead of schedule and leaving customers behind, going into charter destinations without RTOW and RLW... didnt turn up for sign ons on sunday and monday mornings, etc
Just one guy as an example. But he was EXPERIENCED!!!
The excruciating part about it was that there were diligent, hard working and capable FO's that knew the company ways, that could have stepped in. But training an FO to Capt took weeks and a few dollars.
It was very refreshing to have a discussion with one of the people at Surveillance Australia on the topic of hiring new pilots for Coastwatch Islanders.
He took the opposite view.
He said that the minimum experience for pilots was a customer requirement, not a SA requirement.
He said... we could quite happily train any 500 hr CPL with an instrument rating to fly an Islander safely and do a good job for us. We just have to pick people who are trainable. But the customer (Coastwatch) set the minimums.
What a very different approach that is.
The problem is that nobody is vetting the people who get licences. Nobody is assessing whether they would make suitable commercial pilots. Flying schools just want their cash.
And entry level employers for the most part just aren't interested in spending time to recruit people with potential, and provide a disciplined and monitored environment.
This industry persists in recognising only hours in the seat as an indicator of pilot quality.
I have sat next to some appallingly poor pilots that had bags of experience. AirNorth went through a phase of hiring high time Metro 23 captains and wondered why the hell they were having troubles ranging from customer service issues to poor paperwork and, on investigation, all the way through to rule breaking and exceeding aircraft limitations.
Frinstance, one fellow who was hired with 6,000+ metro time.
Nobody questioned why this guy had worked for three other operators... he was not retrenched, he was terminated by companies that were still in business.
Regularly exceeding VMO in descents, getting FO's to pull the audible warning circuit breaker, running the engines at MCP all day, departing ahead of schedule and leaving customers behind, going into charter destinations without RTOW and RLW... didnt turn up for sign ons on sunday and monday mornings, etc
Just one guy as an example. But he was EXPERIENCED!!!
The excruciating part about it was that there were diligent, hard working and capable FO's that knew the company ways, that could have stepped in. But training an FO to Capt took weeks and a few dollars.
It was very refreshing to have a discussion with one of the people at Surveillance Australia on the topic of hiring new pilots for Coastwatch Islanders.
He took the opposite view.
He said that the minimum experience for pilots was a customer requirement, not a SA requirement.
He said... we could quite happily train any 500 hr CPL with an instrument rating to fly an Islander safely and do a good job for us. We just have to pick people who are trainable. But the customer (Coastwatch) set the minimums.
What a very different approach that is.
The problem is that nobody is vetting the people who get licences. Nobody is assessing whether they would make suitable commercial pilots. Flying schools just want their cash.
And entry level employers for the most part just aren't interested in spending time to recruit people with potential, and provide a disciplined and monitored environment.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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ITCZ; Re your comment of the customer requirement
I can provide a good example, namely m'self!
When the current operator of Coastwatch gained the contract I applied for a position, having just over 800hrs in BN2s which were all flown in PNG and at the time about 2300 hrs TT with near enough to 1100hrs multi.
Because one of the requirements at the time was 200hrs Night time (as I remember) I missed out much to the expressed regret of the Gentleman conducting the interview as I had only about a total of 35 hrs night time.
To say that I was p*****d off is an understatement of gigantic proportions, however the old saying applies.....
'Whoever pays the piper calls the tune'
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
I can provide a good example, namely m'self!
When the current operator of Coastwatch gained the contract I applied for a position, having just over 800hrs in BN2s which were all flown in PNG and at the time about 2300 hrs TT with near enough to 1100hrs multi.
Because one of the requirements at the time was 200hrs Night time (as I remember) I missed out much to the expressed regret of the Gentleman conducting the interview as I had only about a total of 35 hrs night time.
To say that I was p*****d off is an understatement of gigantic proportions, however the old saying applies.....
'Whoever pays the piper calls the tune'
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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Bushy, perhaps if operators paid a decent wage and treated their pilots with a bit of dignity and respect that they deserve then perhaps the pilot might just hang round a bit longer.
Last edited by shovel; 20th Feb 2005 at 00:08.
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Bit of a vicious circle. Pilots want to fly good machinery and be paid for it. Operators expect pilots to move on and therefore do not go out of their way to look after their employees. Pilot get p#ssed off and moves on. The circle of life continues.
Will this change? doubt very much
Is there an answer? Better conditions MAY entice pilots to stay longer, (if they are one eyed and are just aiming at the majors you could throw gold bars(ingots) at them to no avail). Provide good sound training and checking to maintain the skill level. Prospective employees agree to stay for an agreed time. many more.....
Sorry was I snoring when I was asleep? Nice dream though
Will this change? doubt very much
Is there an answer? Better conditions MAY entice pilots to stay longer, (if they are one eyed and are just aiming at the majors you could throw gold bars(ingots) at them to no avail). Provide good sound training and checking to maintain the skill level. Prospective employees agree to stay for an agreed time. many more.....
Sorry was I snoring when I was asleep? Nice dream though
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Nice one!
'One eyed' - I'm sure all those two eyed pilots out there would turn down a major to stay in GA if offered better pay and conditions.
The budget for running any GA outfit should include check and training - "what's a budget?" If you can't turn a profit by paying the staff properly and training them properly then shut your circus down!
Don't keep running your sweat shops on the back of pilots trying to earn a honest living.
There is a great example of a so called successful business man in Darwin who quite often brags about how great he is at running his company. The truth be told though, his empire was created buy taking advantage of low time pilots. He has been given a bit of a wake-up call recently (and a few more to come) and has been forced to do the right thing. The same should happen across the whole airfield.
Being career minded (one eyed) should not be an excuse used by operators.
'One eyed' - I'm sure all those two eyed pilots out there would turn down a major to stay in GA if offered better pay and conditions.
The budget for running any GA outfit should include check and training - "what's a budget?" If you can't turn a profit by paying the staff properly and training them properly then shut your circus down!
Don't keep running your sweat shops on the back of pilots trying to earn a honest living.
There is a great example of a so called successful business man in Darwin who quite often brags about how great he is at running his company. The truth be told though, his empire was created buy taking advantage of low time pilots. He has been given a bit of a wake-up call recently (and a few more to come) and has been forced to do the right thing. The same should happen across the whole airfield.
Being career minded (one eyed) should not be an excuse used by operators.
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Maybe there is a shortage starting, I have NEVER seen pilots jobs advertised on job web sites like careerone, mycareer and seek, but looking today and i saw 6 jobs for pilots, and two were for relatively low hour jobs (1000 hr pilot required for Darwin flying 210/206 - Don't they have enough guys already hanging around - why advertise.) Also for multiple grade 2 instructors at BAE college in Adelaide - I thought that the instructors from the civil school next door were fed through to the college.
These are just two examples, maybe there is a thinning out of the pilot pool.
I am feeling better already, maybe there is hope.
Cheers
These are just two examples, maybe there is a thinning out of the pilot pool.
I am feeling better already, maybe there is hope.
Cheers
Sprucegoose
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Jarse,
If only they'd drop that HSC requirement, I'm there!!
Cheers, HH.
We have cancelled several days of sim/interviews both last and this month, due to an inability to get suitable candidates.
Cheers, HH.