Paying to work
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in crap house because of scabs
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paying to work
I think it is about time that this topic was covered. The whole idea to me seems rediculas but I continue to see C@#kheads willing to do it. This hole ICUS sitution should be banned the sooner that these people understand that its Farking the whole industry.
Consider a small charter company for instance. Say 4 aircraft and the company employs 5 full time pilots and a couple of casuals to fly the aircraft. The management charges the aircraft out at realistic rates and pays the pilots the award. One day another guy comes along and decides to start a new company to compete with the existing one. To attract bussiness his prices are very cheap and to cut costs he pays his pilots Fark all however these pilots are willing to work for next to nothing and the company booms all of a sudden the good operator is forced to lower his prices and the easiest way is to pay his pilots Fark all too.
Welcome to the present day situation. And to make things worse the operators need to recoup some of there losses they decide to charge people to fly their aircraft on pre existing contracts and people are lining up to claim the stake of this every so valuable ICUS time
If everybody had enough balls to say NO im not working for that dismal paycheck the industry would be forced to pay the award and everyine would be better off
Its time all you tossers out there who are shafting themelves and the pepole below them to get your had off your Cocks and realise there is no quick way to the top
Consider a small charter company for instance. Say 4 aircraft and the company employs 5 full time pilots and a couple of casuals to fly the aircraft. The management charges the aircraft out at realistic rates and pays the pilots the award. One day another guy comes along and decides to start a new company to compete with the existing one. To attract bussiness his prices are very cheap and to cut costs he pays his pilots Fark all however these pilots are willing to work for next to nothing and the company booms all of a sudden the good operator is forced to lower his prices and the easiest way is to pay his pilots Fark all too.
Welcome to the present day situation. And to make things worse the operators need to recoup some of there losses they decide to charge people to fly their aircraft on pre existing contracts and people are lining up to claim the stake of this every so valuable ICUS time
If everybody had enough balls to say NO im not working for that dismal paycheck the industry would be forced to pay the award and everyine would be better off
Its time all you tossers out there who are shafting themelves and the pepole below them to get your had off your Cocks and realise there is no quick way to the top
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
chew_ma_phat
You are a genius, you have just solved the general aviation problm in one post. Quick everybody read this and change your ways. Unfortunately it is not that easy, I think you should stop worrying about everybody else and just work hard and be a good operator then you will earn respect and will be very employable.
Good Luck
You are a genius, you have just solved the general aviation problm in one post. Quick everybody read this and change your ways. Unfortunately it is not that easy, I think you should stop worrying about everybody else and just work hard and be a good operator then you will earn respect and will be very employable.
Good Luck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid you summed it up mate, 'that very valuable ICUS time'.
If it wasn't valuable, they wouldn't pay.
The unfortunate reality, a 250 Hr CPL = practically unemployable!
I wouldn't trust some in the CCT with 2 PAX in the (joyflight) 172B!!!
A 150 hour CPL is what is ridiculous!!!!
The answer, farked if I know, it is such a delicate balace these days. But if we have to have a 200 hr CPL (I won't even recognise the 150) then lets at least add aeros + 100 hrs before they carry paying PAX.
Oh, on the up side, piss off the requirement to do the test in a CSU, it can just be an add on. Training becomes cheaper and thus hopefully more hours are logged.
Max
If it wasn't valuable, they wouldn't pay.
The unfortunate reality, a 250 Hr CPL = practically unemployable!
I wouldn't trust some in the CCT with 2 PAX in the (joyflight) 172B!!!
A 150 hour CPL is what is ridiculous!!!!
The answer, farked if I know, it is such a delicate balace these days. But if we have to have a 200 hr CPL (I won't even recognise the 150) then lets at least add aeros + 100 hrs before they carry paying PAX.
Oh, on the up side, piss off the requirement to do the test in a CSU, it can just be an add on. Training becomes cheaper and thus hopefully more hours are logged.
Max
Guys, you aint seen nothing yet.
Today I flew Liverpool-Palma-Liverpool with a bright, competant young guy who is flying with our company as a "Cadet". Under this scheme he gets his ATP training and a type rating, and is then placed as an FO for six months,unpaid. For this he has paid...wait for it...around £70 000. Thats Around $175 000 AUD!!!
At the end of the six months the airline (who has had a free FO for six months) gets the option of keeping them on or saying Sayonara. (This guy was saying some friends placed with another carrier got the bullet at the end of their term. A huge debt, no job, and less than minimum hours for most carriers.).
The payoff? He will almost certainly be kept on by my company, go straight onto full pay, and have a shot at command in the next 4 years or so, so it's a gamble that will probably pay off, IF you can raise the stake initially.
At some point the pool will dry up and demand will match supply again. Until then market forces dictate that this is the way it will be.
I'm not saying you should like it, but you'll HAVE to get used to it...
Today I flew Liverpool-Palma-Liverpool with a bright, competant young guy who is flying with our company as a "Cadet". Under this scheme he gets his ATP training and a type rating, and is then placed as an FO for six months,unpaid. For this he has paid...wait for it...around £70 000. Thats Around $175 000 AUD!!!
At the end of the six months the airline (who has had a free FO for six months) gets the option of keeping them on or saying Sayonara. (This guy was saying some friends placed with another carrier got the bullet at the end of their term. A huge debt, no job, and less than minimum hours for most carriers.).
The payoff? He will almost certainly be kept on by my company, go straight onto full pay, and have a shot at command in the next 4 years or so, so it's a gamble that will probably pay off, IF you can raise the stake initially.
At some point the pool will dry up and demand will match supply again. Until then market forces dictate that this is the way it will be.
I'm not saying you should like it, but you'll HAVE to get used to it...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reference to Stirling mens you are in Pommy Land I suppose.
I actuallly think the old Pom system of 500 hr CPLs but allowing PPLs to be 'assistant instructors' was a geat system.
That way 'dedicated' PPLs could just teach and aspiring CPLs could build paid hours.
Yes they would have to compete with the PPLs for work, but tough, life ain't a free ride. You want the job, be the best!
Max
I actuallly think the old Pom system of 500 hr CPLs but allowing PPLs to be 'assistant instructors' was a geat system.
That way 'dedicated' PPLs could just teach and aspiring CPLs could build paid hours.
Yes they would have to compete with the PPLs for work, but tough, life ain't a free ride. You want the job, be the best!
Max
Bottums Up
chew_ma_phat
It's not really "Welcome to the present day situation." It's welcome to the system of 20 years ago, probably 30 years ago, even more!
It's very hard to get newbies to understand how the cycle works and the difficulties that the practice causes.
It's not really "Welcome to the present day situation." It's welcome to the system of 20 years ago, probably 30 years ago, even more!
It's very hard to get newbies to understand how the cycle works and the difficulties that the practice causes.
If everybody had enough balls to say NO im not working for that dismal paycheck the industry would be forced to pay the award and everyine would be better off
Without wishing to get too freudien, there is a very basic mathmatical principal used by everyone from insurance companies to industrial relations experts called "The prisoners dilema". It deals with the idea that you have two suspects in a crime, but the only way to get them convicted is if one rats on the other. Seperate them, offer them both the deal that the first to squeal will get a reduced sentence, and one will almost always crack.
The relevance is in the "Everybody" part of your statement. If "Everybody" knew that "Everybody else" was going to say NO, it would work. The problem is "Everybody" knows that "Somebody" is going to say YES, and therefore enough people will simply do whatever is best for themselves. It's just human nature.
And before you start casting aspirtions, ask yourself this... What did you get paid in your first flying job? If "Everybody" had refused that job unless it paid 50% more, wouldn't you and everyone else been better off?
But you took it, as it was the best thing for you at the time.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The issue of working for free or or very little is not anything that is isolated ourside of aviation. Numerous industries have 'plebs' that start on nothing or next to in order to get some experience to move on. Hard call to **** all over the newbies, which we once were ourselves, and expect them to 'buck up' over no pay so that they may forgo the chance to get some valuable experience.
Out of interest, did you yourself take the moral high road and demand pay for your work or else? Like most of us, myself included, we start out with nothing, do the hard sweaty and forgettable yards that lead to better and better things. People start out with the big picture in mind and are not immersed (thankfully) in all the bull**** that goes with this industry.
How about stacking some **** and responsibilities on the disgusting and low down operators who conduct their affairs in this way, and get those usless oxgyen thieves at CASA to maybe swing into action and take some action (though if it's too hard, they will invariably put it back on the industry to deal with - full circle, back at square one).
- Newbies - good luck and do what you can to climb the food chain.
- Exploitive Operaters - swim forever in your mediocrity, for you are the scum at the base of the toilet that are remembered as assholes and nothing more!!!
Out of interest, did you yourself take the moral high road and demand pay for your work or else? Like most of us, myself included, we start out with nothing, do the hard sweaty and forgettable yards that lead to better and better things. People start out with the big picture in mind and are not immersed (thankfully) in all the bull**** that goes with this industry.
How about stacking some **** and responsibilities on the disgusting and low down operators who conduct their affairs in this way, and get those usless oxgyen thieves at CASA to maybe swing into action and take some action (though if it's too hard, they will invariably put it back on the industry to deal with - full circle, back at square one).
- Newbies - good luck and do what you can to climb the food chain.
- Exploitive Operaters - swim forever in your mediocrity, for you are the scum at the base of the toilet that are remembered as assholes and nothing more!!!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A while back a colleague looked at changing camps and moving into multi, IFR type work.
After a thorough search of QLD he could only find two (2) operators that pay award wages for this type of work.
Weed out the bad ones and there will be very few left.
After a thorough search of QLD he could only find two (2) operators that pay award wages for this type of work.
Weed out the bad ones and there will be very few left.
