Warren Sattler claims there is a "critical" NZ pilot shortage
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Warren Sattler claims there is a "critical" NZ pilot shortage
NZ pilot shortage
Forum being held to address serious problem of shortage of pilots to
address critical supply and demand situation
8 August 2004
The Aviation Industry Association hopes a forum later this month will
find ways of easing a serious pilot shortage.
The forum, on August 25, will address a critical supply and demand
problem.
Spokesman Warren Sattler says the industry has been depressed in
recent years, but Air New Zealand's experience is typical of a
turnaround.
He says it was in dire straits but now its fortunes are looking up
with new aircraft on order. But Mr Sattler says many of its pilots
are approaching retirement age.
The student loan scheme is seen as one reason for a shortage of
pilots. Warren Sattler says until the student loan scheme started
pilots paid for their own training.
The loan scheme prompted them to rely on the government to pay for
their training but recently they have been hit with added costs.
These include higher fuel costs and landing fees resulting from
privatisation of airfields.
All those involved in pilot training and recruitment have been
invited to next month's forum.
© 2004 NZCity, IRN
-----------
Absolutely unbelievable
Forum being held to address serious problem of shortage of pilots to
address critical supply and demand situation
8 August 2004
The Aviation Industry Association hopes a forum later this month will
find ways of easing a serious pilot shortage.
The forum, on August 25, will address a critical supply and demand
problem.
Spokesman Warren Sattler says the industry has been depressed in
recent years, but Air New Zealand's experience is typical of a
turnaround.
He says it was in dire straits but now its fortunes are looking up
with new aircraft on order. But Mr Sattler says many of its pilots
are approaching retirement age.
The student loan scheme is seen as one reason for a shortage of
pilots. Warren Sattler says until the student loan scheme started
pilots paid for their own training.
The loan scheme prompted them to rely on the government to pay for
their training but recently they have been hit with added costs.
These include higher fuel costs and landing fees resulting from
privatisation of airfields.
All those involved in pilot training and recruitment have been
invited to next month's forum.
© 2004 NZCity, IRN
-----------
Absolutely unbelievable
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Isn't Sattler the one at Ardmore that keeps complaining over the radio windshear on the downwind leg and finals when it's just light turbulence...?
Isn't he also the one that teaches everyone under him to cut people off in the circuit too?
I thought he was retiring?
Isn't he also the one that teaches everyone under him to cut people off in the circuit too?
I thought he was retiring?
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the loans scheme is responsible for a pilot shortage???
How can that be possible when Warren and his NMIT masters have pumped out 700ish old fashioned flying school wallies in the last 12 months?
The mind boggles
oh and yeah... wind shear my AXXE!
How can that be possible when Warren and his NMIT masters have pumped out 700ish old fashioned flying school wallies in the last 12 months?
The mind boggles
oh and yeah... wind shear my AXXE!
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Aaarrrggghhhh
It really makes my blood boil
Lets face it, the Aviation Industry Association is nothing but the industry think tank of the major flying school owners / managers, whose entire role in life is to grab the limelight and issue press releases, and lie to the minister of education, and generally do all that they can to bull**** star struck kids into thinking that there is an upcoming shortage of pilots.
The truth, as generally accepted by flight testing officers and the airlines themselves - is that at any given time in New Zealand, the ratio of commercially licenced pilots to flying jobs, is about 12 to 1. However letting that be known is hardly likely to enamour the punters of signing up for a big fat $60,000 student loan is it?
Anyway about 3 seconds of mathematics would expose the fallacy of what he is saying ... I had this discussion with Graeme Leach from ASL a couple of years ago when I was doing my multi instructor rating. We worked out there were somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 flying jobs in NZ (based on about 1200 in the Air NZ group of companies, a hundred-ish at Qantas, couple hundred at Origin, a couple hundred helicopter pilots, no idea about ag pilots but can't be more than a hundred, and a small handful of parachute pilots / professional career type flying instructors etc). I didn't include the hordes of work-for-free C cat types that hang around Ardmore trying to scrounge trial lessons, because they are not really holding down real flying jobs, and are in fact more to do with the problem of too many pilots rather than the solution.
CAA statistics show that there are between 500 and 700 new commercial pilot's licences issued every year on average. In other words the NZ flight training industry already churns out enough wannabe commercial pilots, to replace every single pilot working in every sector of the industry, every 3 or 4 years.
It is an absolutely disgusting outrage that a group like the AIA - who are far far beyond having a vested interest, in fact, pretty much by definition, their members are the people who would stand to directly financially benefit the most if there ever actually 'was' a pilot shortage – it is an outrage that they can sit there and imply totally farcical things like that in national newspapers just to try and fill their own coffers.
I'm sorry but in the decade or so I've been doing this, I have seen far too many nice kids swallow all the bull****, sign up to these courses, and fall by the wayside a year or two later with $60- or $70,000 debts that they'll probably never ever repay. God knows there are hundreds, probably thousands, of ex Ardmore Flying School and Massey School of Aviation graduates now selling Tupperware or milking dad's cows or whatever. Hell will freeze over before any kiwi airline will even be forced into running an advert for CV’s, let alone go trotting along to some flying school complaining of a pilot shortage.
This industry is just heaving with charlatans that make a bloody good living out of flogging dreams and hot air, and it makes me absolutely sick to watch it.
Somebody should really do something about it. A letter writing campaign to the Ministry of Education / MP’s / the national newspapers, from some of you hundreds of unemployed CPL holders, would be a good start. Even better, Paul Holmes is a pretty keen PPL who’s always up for an aviation angle to a story, I’d love to see Warren Sattler trying to substantiate this bullsh!t while he was under the old interrogation blowtorch on prime time TV … whaddya all reckon?
It really makes my blood boil
Lets face it, the Aviation Industry Association is nothing but the industry think tank of the major flying school owners / managers, whose entire role in life is to grab the limelight and issue press releases, and lie to the minister of education, and generally do all that they can to bull**** star struck kids into thinking that there is an upcoming shortage of pilots.
The truth, as generally accepted by flight testing officers and the airlines themselves - is that at any given time in New Zealand, the ratio of commercially licenced pilots to flying jobs, is about 12 to 1. However letting that be known is hardly likely to enamour the punters of signing up for a big fat $60,000 student loan is it?
Anyway about 3 seconds of mathematics would expose the fallacy of what he is saying ... I had this discussion with Graeme Leach from ASL a couple of years ago when I was doing my multi instructor rating. We worked out there were somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 flying jobs in NZ (based on about 1200 in the Air NZ group of companies, a hundred-ish at Qantas, couple hundred at Origin, a couple hundred helicopter pilots, no idea about ag pilots but can't be more than a hundred, and a small handful of parachute pilots / professional career type flying instructors etc). I didn't include the hordes of work-for-free C cat types that hang around Ardmore trying to scrounge trial lessons, because they are not really holding down real flying jobs, and are in fact more to do with the problem of too many pilots rather than the solution.
CAA statistics show that there are between 500 and 700 new commercial pilot's licences issued every year on average. In other words the NZ flight training industry already churns out enough wannabe commercial pilots, to replace every single pilot working in every sector of the industry, every 3 or 4 years.
It is an absolutely disgusting outrage that a group like the AIA - who are far far beyond having a vested interest, in fact, pretty much by definition, their members are the people who would stand to directly financially benefit the most if there ever actually 'was' a pilot shortage – it is an outrage that they can sit there and imply totally farcical things like that in national newspapers just to try and fill their own coffers.
I'm sorry but in the decade or so I've been doing this, I have seen far too many nice kids swallow all the bull****, sign up to these courses, and fall by the wayside a year or two later with $60- or $70,000 debts that they'll probably never ever repay. God knows there are hundreds, probably thousands, of ex Ardmore Flying School and Massey School of Aviation graduates now selling Tupperware or milking dad's cows or whatever. Hell will freeze over before any kiwi airline will even be forced into running an advert for CV’s, let alone go trotting along to some flying school complaining of a pilot shortage.
This industry is just heaving with charlatans that make a bloody good living out of flogging dreams and hot air, and it makes me absolutely sick to watch it.
Somebody should really do something about it. A letter writing campaign to the Ministry of Education / MP’s / the national newspapers, from some of you hundreds of unemployed CPL holders, would be a good start. Even better, Paul Holmes is a pretty keen PPL who’s always up for an aviation angle to a story, I’d love to see Warren Sattler trying to substantiate this bullsh!t while he was under the old interrogation blowtorch on prime time TV … whaddya all reckon?
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It seems to me as though alot of the people involved with this issue are the ones with the most to gain.
I have not yet seen any of our major regionals advertising for pilots yet and I think it is quite unlikely.
Pilot jobs in NZ have always been a boom or bust affair. There are good times followed by bad times. At the momment the industry is going through a good time but who knows how long it will last.
I know it is the flying schools bussiness to train pilots but I think they need to be more honest with their students in the reality of flying job and conditions they will have to face (in GA) in the NZ scene.
I have not yet seen any of our major regionals advertising for pilots yet and I think it is quite unlikely.
Pilot jobs in NZ have always been a boom or bust affair. There are good times followed by bad times. At the momment the industry is going through a good time but who knows how long it will last.
I know it is the flying schools bussiness to train pilots but I think they need to be more honest with their students in the reality of flying job and conditions they will have to face (in GA) in the NZ scene.
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I think LukeSkytoddler has summed it up totally!
Ardmore Flying school needs to keep pumping students thru, as they have over a dozen new 172's to pay off!!!
They certainly need to be accountable, there is no pilot shortage.
It would be good to see this aired on National TV, but why stop there? Include Simuflight and Massey as well, as there are lots of stories to be told.
Student loans were the worst thing the industry has faced, students who pay for training themselves dont hold the same attitudes as the ones who 'dont see the money'-thats my experience.
In real life, who is going to employ a pilot with a shiny CPL, 230 odd hrs, with lots of experience of doing big circuits when the wind is under 10 knots and 3000' cloudbase!
They need some real flying time, and some life experience first!
It has been a first class marketing scam, sucking in lots of young wide eyed youngsters, then leaving them with a huge debt, and not many prospects.
Ardmore Flying school needs to keep pumping students thru, as they have over a dozen new 172's to pay off!!!
They certainly need to be accountable, there is no pilot shortage.
It would be good to see this aired on National TV, but why stop there? Include Simuflight and Massey as well, as there are lots of stories to be told.
Student loans were the worst thing the industry has faced, students who pay for training themselves dont hold the same attitudes as the ones who 'dont see the money'-thats my experience.
In real life, who is going to employ a pilot with a shiny CPL, 230 odd hrs, with lots of experience of doing big circuits when the wind is under 10 knots and 3000' cloudbase!
They need some real flying time, and some life experience first!
It has been a first class marketing scam, sucking in lots of young wide eyed youngsters, then leaving them with a huge debt, and not many prospects.
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You hit the nail on the head LUKEST, its something we have all seen happening for a few years and it just appears to be getting worse.
I know you can't do much about it over there but all those C-cats with nothing to do in the country might have some spare time to put something together.
I remeber the first time I tried to get the doll whilst instructing, they just laughed and thought I was BullS#@ting them when I said I worked up to 60 hours a week and was only clearing $50.00. Obviously I was turned down like most and ended up working two (sometimes 3 ) jobs to make enough money to live on. (and that was still less than those on the doll with no career prospects).
The point is, that maybe its about time average Jo bloggs in NZ learnt how poorly its pilots are treated insteed of thinking we earn mega dollars.
Underminning this bollocks on a pilot shortage might be a good place to start.
splat
OK my bad, spelling and grammer checking of post isn't a strong point.
PLEASE REPLACE "DOLL" with DOLE, THANK YOU
I know you can't do much about it over there but all those C-cats with nothing to do in the country might have some spare time to put something together.
I remeber the first time I tried to get the doll whilst instructing, they just laughed and thought I was BullS#@ting them when I said I worked up to 60 hours a week and was only clearing $50.00. Obviously I was turned down like most and ended up working two (sometimes 3 ) jobs to make enough money to live on. (and that was still less than those on the doll with no career prospects).
The point is, that maybe its about time average Jo bloggs in NZ learnt how poorly its pilots are treated insteed of thinking we earn mega dollars.
Underminning this bollocks on a pilot shortage might be a good place to start.
splat
OK my bad, spelling and grammer checking of post isn't a strong point.
PLEASE REPLACE "DOLL" with DOLE, THANK YOU
Last edited by splatgothebugs; 17th Aug 2004 at 03:33.
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I too got 'sold the dream'... but come on... there IS work out there for those that REALLY want it!!!... I don't blame these mass producing outfit's... It's their job!!!! I blame these lazy guys that finish their training and don't get off their a s to find work at the end of it. I met one guy recently, he's finished all his training (won't say what he's doing now) and the only 'follow up' in trying to get a job was to send a couple of CV's!!!! I for one wouldn't have looked twice at this guy...
I'm not saying that everyone that finished a CPL would walk straight into a job... It's just lucky for the motivated ones out there that these lazy guys that aren't even interested!!!!
As I said... I got sold the dream, I got hooked on flying... I got off my a s to find a job and am now doing what I've always wanted to do... When I left one of these job's, I (or my employer) couldn't believe how many pilots WEREN'T interested in the job!!!!! But as for a pilot 'shortage'... Never gonna happen.. Not in NZ anyway.
Remember....... It's not an easy path.... but all those that want to get there....... eventually do.
s to find work at the end of it. I met one guy recently, he's finished all his training (won't say what he's doing now) and the only 'follow up' in trying to get a job was to send a couple of CV's!!!! I for one wouldn't have looked twice at this guy... I'm not saying that everyone that finished a CPL would walk straight into a job... It's just lucky for the motivated ones out there that these lazy guys that aren't even interested!!!!
As I said... I got sold the dream, I got hooked on flying... I got off my a
s to find a job and am now doing what I've always wanted to do... When I left one of these job's, I (or my employer) couldn't believe how many pilots WEREN'T interested in the job!!!!! But as for a pilot 'shortage'... Never gonna happen.. Not in NZ anyway.Remember....... It's not an easy path.... but all those that want to get there....... eventually do.
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Incident, not saying you are wrong but you may have missed the point.
At the moment the number of fully funded trainees is limited. If these gold diggers convince the powers that be that the industry needs more pilots your options for jobs will become very small.
Yes there are jobs out there if you get off your butt, but they will become few and far between like it was if the industry is flooded again.
splat
At the moment the number of fully funded trainees is limited. If these gold diggers convince the powers that be that the industry needs more pilots your options for jobs will become very small.
Yes there are jobs out there if you get off your butt, but they will become few and far between like it was if the industry is flooded again.
splat
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Splat...
Point taken...
Yes I agree, the more that have easy access to this industry the worse off the conditions will be. (or remain) But honestly out of a class of say 20... probably only 5 will be motivated enough to look for work!!! The rest will probably go and add a helicopter licence to their bill... then will probably start off in something totally different anyway. (Only paying a higher tax for all that fun they had!!!)
Point taken...
Yes I agree, the more that have easy access to this industry the worse off the conditions will be. (or remain) But honestly out of a class of say 20... probably only 5 will be motivated enough to look for work!!! The rest will probably go and add a helicopter licence to their bill... then will probably start off in something totally different anyway. (Only paying a higher tax for all that fun they had!!!)
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I cant believe old "saddle bags" is still preaching this rubbish about pilot shortages in NZ...the man has spent to much time in the circuit at ardmore..and is obviously giddy. As for prospects of getting a job in godzone..well when I come back from the UK..im not holding my breath, as it seems to me that unless you want to fly tattered and out moded machinery you dont have a sh@t show in hell.
cheers
H
cheers
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Strange how it all works huh... seems not so long ago that Massey was flooding the market with under qualified pilots short on skills...
now I see Irene and Sattler have said in the latest AIA report that the current 700ish cap per annum on student funding is too low! Yet they couldnt wait to get either loans taken off Massey or their own snouts into the piggy trough.
On the helicopter side... Ardmore is the loudest party against student loans yet by their own admission only survive on the basis of them!?
Life is irony...
now I see Irene and Sattler have said in the latest AIA report that the current 700ish cap per annum on student funding is too low! Yet they couldnt wait to get either loans taken off Massey or their own snouts into the piggy trough.
On the helicopter side... Ardmore is the loudest party against student loans yet by their own admission only survive on the basis of them!?
Life is irony...
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LUKE ST,
Bang on, like your way of thinking.
Perhaps the lads should pay warren a vist and ask him about him pilot shortage and then walk around his flying school and see how many unemployed instructors are milling around the place, the only shortage, I suspect, will be the work.
Pigs at the trough. Makes me want to throw up listening to the lies that are told.
Bang on, like your way of thinking.
Perhaps the lads should pay warren a vist and ask him about him pilot shortage and then walk around his flying school and see how many unemployed instructors are milling around the place, the only shortage, I suspect, will be the work.
Pigs at the trough. Makes me want to throw up listening to the lies that are told.
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I fail to see how the removal of the loan scheme has caused a shortage, especially since it was removed less than 12 months ago.
I dont care what you say, those who have funded themselves are much different to loan students. I fully funded myself though my flying by doing some of the worst jobs you could imagine. I swept hangers and cleaned more aeroplanes than i can remember picking up on how the industry works and the realities of the industry. loan students i have met dont seem to have done their homework on what its like out in the big wide world and walked into the that was in the sales pitch they received.
Stuff student loans, if people want to fly badly enough they will find a way.
I dont care what you say, those who have funded themselves are much different to loan students. I fully funded myself though my flying by doing some of the worst jobs you could imagine. I swept hangers and cleaned more aeroplanes than i can remember picking up on how the industry works and the realities of the industry. loan students i have met dont seem to have done their homework on what its like out in the big wide world and walked into the
that was in the sales pitch they received.Stuff student loans, if people want to fly badly enough they will find a way.
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shovel
No outcome as such, just more questions. Basically the government is still indecisive on aviation student loans for next year. They presented a number of options including complete withdrawal of loans, industry funding, and cadetships. The Air NZ and NSN CPs were there, they (particularly the regionals) are concerned that the experience levels of applicants are continually dropping. Air NZ make it clear that current hiring rates will continue (if not accelerate) for the forseeable future, and recent independant reports show that current CPL graduate rates are unlikely to satisfy the demand. It is already getting to the point where Air NZ are having to take more than a passing glance at a cadet scheme.
This is all very good for those of us starting to reep the benefits of rising demand for pilots, but it can't be a healthy situation in the long run. I'm sure Air NZ would employ overseas pilots before they shell out for a cadet scheme. The simple fact is, aviation as a career is not as attractive as it once was. In my view student loans level the playing field and allow perspective aviation students to consider their options based on attributes other than finance.
No outcome as such, just more questions. Basically the government is still indecisive on aviation student loans for next year. They presented a number of options including complete withdrawal of loans, industry funding, and cadetships. The Air NZ and NSN CPs were there, they (particularly the regionals) are concerned that the experience levels of applicants are continually dropping. Air NZ make it clear that current hiring rates will continue (if not accelerate) for the forseeable future, and recent independant reports show that current CPL graduate rates are unlikely to satisfy the demand. It is already getting to the point where Air NZ are having to take more than a passing glance at a cadet scheme.
This is all very good for those of us starting to reep the benefits of rising demand for pilots, but it can't be a healthy situation in the long run. I'm sure Air NZ would employ overseas pilots before they shell out for a cadet scheme. The simple fact is, aviation as a career is not as attractive as it once was. In my view student loans level the playing field and allow perspective aviation students to consider their options based on attributes other than finance.
Last edited by Cloud Cutter; 30th Aug 2004 at 07:50.
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i see fully funded students every day flying and going to class. unbeleivably they are failing exams too! i have flown with a couple of them, and i wasn't that impressed. i am paying my own way, working full time, and trying to fit every thing in. i WILL make it, no doubt i'll fly some rubbish, but in the end i wanna be flying 'em, not fixin 'em.
one of the big issues i see with the funded students, is that many (not all), have no other trade to fall back on, or ability to earn good money to build hours. who is going to employ a 220hr 20 year old ATPL to fly their expensive machine around the place?
one of the big issues i see with the funded students, is that many (not all), have no other trade to fall back on, or ability to earn good money to build hours. who is going to employ a 220hr 20 year old ATPL to fly their expensive machine around the place?