VHF or HF in PNG??
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There are OLD pilots, and there are BOLD pilots, but there are no OLD, BOLD pilots !!!!!
My advice would be to stay at home.
You won't get a job in PNG unless you have heaps of ours in PNG anyway. You would be wasting your time as well as risking your life.
Even flying around Oz can be challenging.
To even consider going without an HF radio would be foolhardy to say the least. You need as many things going for you as possible. Don't risk the "she'll be right mate" attitude. It will bring you unstuck.
I would suggest flying around Australia a little first.
Good luck with the career.
BW
My advice would be to stay at home.
You won't get a job in PNG unless you have heaps of ours in PNG anyway. You would be wasting your time as well as risking your life.
Even flying around Oz can be challenging.
To even consider going without an HF radio would be foolhardy to say the least. You need as many things going for you as possible. Don't risk the "she'll be right mate" attitude. It will bring you unstuck.
I would suggest flying around Australia a little first.
Good luck with the career.
BW
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Safari Suit,
I flew the better part of 1200 hours in PNG and, dude, I can tell you that even with another 1200 hours in country I'd still have serious doubts about flying up there from Aus - especially in a single.
You probably don't need my two-cents worth as the theme of this thread should be giving you a strong indication that going would be unwise to say the least. But I want to say this just to add another name to the list of those who are imploring you not to do it.
DO NOT DO IT!
Please.
Any questions or specific info you need R.E-reasons why not to go, feel free to PM me also.
I flew the better part of 1200 hours in PNG and, dude, I can tell you that even with another 1200 hours in country I'd still have serious doubts about flying up there from Aus - especially in a single.
You probably don't need my two-cents worth as the theme of this thread should be giving you a strong indication that going would be unwise to say the least. But I want to say this just to add another name to the list of those who are imploring you not to do it.
DO NOT DO IT!
Please.
Any questions or specific info you need R.E-reasons why not to go, feel free to PM me also.
Last edited by 2daddies; 15th Jan 2004 at 11:29.
If you don't change your attitude to flying very soon I fully expect to be reading about you in an accident report. Your total lack of experience and gung ho approach are a dangerous combination.
Most of us with a bit of experience know some one who died in an aircraft accident ,I can think of 4 off the top of my head ,plus a few more who came close.
PNG has killed loads of highly experienced pilots with thousands of hours of local knowledge ,you do not stand a chance
Go and look at some aircraft wrecks ,read some accident reports and realise that could be you
Most of us with a bit of experience know some one who died in an aircraft accident ,I can think of 4 off the top of my head ,plus a few more who came close.
PNG has killed loads of highly experienced pilots with thousands of hours of local knowledge ,you do not stand a chance
Go and look at some aircraft wrecks ,read some accident reports and realise that could be you
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Location: Back in Japan, flying the Glider Tug, eating great Japanese food, looking at lovely Japanese Ladies and continuing the neverending search for a bad bottle of Red.
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Although other posters have said far more eloquently than I could I'll still put in my 2 toea worth.
Do your flying in Aussie safari suit; Don't even think about going up to PNG the way you mentioned. If you're that keen to see the place fly there with Pixie and try to hitch a few rides with some of the blokes who work there.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Do your flying in Aussie safari suit; Don't even think about going up to PNG the way you mentioned. If you're that keen to see the place fly there with Pixie and try to hitch a few rides with some of the blokes who work there.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
PPRuNeaholic
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It's actually 14,000 feet beerlover... but you're close enough. 
Of course, if one happened to overshoot Nadzab without realising it, the LSALT becomes 16,000 pretty quickly... 
Of course, if one happened to overshoot Nadzab without realising it, the LSALT becomes 16,000 pretty quickly...
methinks this is a windup.
Suit, those who ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them!
The old Aussie Dept of Civil Aviation created ANO 28.1 in the early 1960's, specifically for the improvement of safety in PNG. It laid out specific route and airport experience and training requirements - for commercial and higher pilots! Not PPL's!!
It's nationalised format is probably still in existence. (Ozexpat would know)
If it's good enough for CPL/ATPL pilots to be so regulated - what price a low hours PPL?
happy days,
The old Aussie Dept of Civil Aviation created ANO 28.1 in the early 1960's, specifically for the improvement of safety in PNG. It laid out specific route and airport experience and training requirements - for commercial and higher pilots! Not PPL's!!
It's nationalised format is probably still in existence. (Ozexpat would know)
If it's good enough for CPL/ATPL pilots to be so regulated - what price a low hours PPL?
happy days,
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Somebody said that it couldn't be done,
But he with a chuckle replied
That maybe it couldn't, but he would be one
Who wouldn't say no 'till he tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.
Somebody scoffed: ''Oh, you'll never do that;
At least no one ever has done it;''
But he took off his coat and took off his hat
And the first thing he knew he'd begun it.
With the lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.
There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you, one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle right in with a bit of a grin,
Then take off your coat and go to it;
Just start in to sing as you tackle the thing
That "cannot be done,"and you'll do it,
- Edgar A. Guest
But he with a chuckle replied
That maybe it couldn't, but he would be one
Who wouldn't say no 'till he tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.
Somebody scoffed: ''Oh, you'll never do that;
At least no one ever has done it;''
But he took off his coat and took off his hat
And the first thing he knew he'd begun it.
With the lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.
There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you, one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle right in with a bit of a grin,
Then take off your coat and go to it;
Just start in to sing as you tackle the thing
That "cannot be done,"and you'll do it,
- Edgar A. Guest
who did Edgar fly for?
PPRuNeaholic
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Okay, I've now lost all interest in this thread. Methinks it's just a wind-up but, if not, then the extremely foolhardy safarisuit is going to find out that Edgar wasn't always right. 
By all means pal, go ahead and kill yourself... see if I care. Just have the courtesy not to kill anyone else at the same time. 
RV6-VNE... all our CAOs have been withdrawn, as of 1 Jan 2004, coincident with the implementation of new Civil Aviation Regulations. All the specifications in all the CAOs have been incorporated into the new CARs. So, yes, CAO 28.1 and 28.2 live on in the new Regulation.
By all means pal, go ahead and kill yourself... see if I care. Just have the courtesy not to kill anyone else at the same time. RV6-VNE... all our CAOs have been withdrawn, as of 1 Jan 2004, coincident with the implementation of new Civil Aviation Regulations. All the specifications in all the CAOs have been incorporated into the new CARs. So, yes, CAO 28.1 and 28.2 live on in the new Regulation.
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Safari Suit
Go do it then. Don't ask us for our advice, and then quote poetry when we offer you the benefit of our experience.
I won't be coming to your funeral though you dip****!
Go do it then. Don't ask us for our advice, and then quote poetry when we offer you the benefit of our experience.
I won't be coming to your funeral though you dip****!
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Safari, mate, I don't get it. You've just posted a poem written about doing things like re-organising your garden or designing a better mousetrap and thrown it in the face of more than a dozen people older (perhaps) and wiser (certainly) than you, totally devaluing the depth of their experience, and I must say devaluing the care for their fellow man that they've all shown.
I lived in PNG for over 9 years, I'm the son of a pilot who was logging time all those 9 years, and I saw and heard about accidents up there continually. Most of the pilots involved would have had many thousands of hours.
If this is a wind-up, you're an idiot. If it's not, you're an idiot.
Either way, I'm here to tell you .....
YOU HAVE NO FRICKIN IDEA what you're getting yourself into!
Please at least tell the place you're hiring the aircraft from that they should get the insurance paperwork ready and start scouting around for a replacement.
I lived in PNG for over 9 years, I'm the son of a pilot who was logging time all those 9 years, and I saw and heard about accidents up there continually. Most of the pilots involved would have had many thousands of hours.
If this is a wind-up, you're an idiot. If it's not, you're an idiot.
Either way, I'm here to tell you .....
YOU HAVE NO FRICKIN IDEA what you're getting yourself into!
Please at least tell the place you're hiring the aircraft from that they should get the insurance paperwork ready and start scouting around for a replacement.
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Safari Suit .... .....
Your attitude reminds me of me when I was at your stage in flying, only I wasn't flying in PNG at the time, so I survived.
I am telling you pal, without one shadow of a doubt, and with no if's buts and ands, you are going to die, and when you see that mountain coming out of the cloud towards you, and when your bowels fill with instant water, the last thing that goes through your mind (Apart from the windshield) will be that you were given good advice, and you wish you had taken it. The saddest thing about it all, is that you will have taken a good aircraft with you. Your arrogance is staggering. This is not some Polar expedition, it is PNG, and I was frightened on EVERY trip up there.
It was fear that kept me alive. Your flying club, if they know the details, will not let you take the aircfraft .
When you get up there, (or down, as the case may be) please pass on my best regards to Mack Lee and all the other drinking buddies from the Temple, who's stools are empty.
Your attitude reminds me of me when I was at your stage in flying, only I wasn't flying in PNG at the time, so I survived.
I am telling you pal, without one shadow of a doubt, and with no if's buts and ands, you are going to die, and when you see that mountain coming out of the cloud towards you, and when your bowels fill with instant water, the last thing that goes through your mind (Apart from the windshield) will be that you were given good advice, and you wish you had taken it. The saddest thing about it all, is that you will have taken a good aircraft with you. Your arrogance is staggering. This is not some Polar expedition, it is PNG, and I was frightened on EVERY trip up there.
It was fear that kept me alive. Your flying club, if they know the details, will not let you take the aircfraft .
When you get up there, (or down, as the case may be) please pass on my best regards to Mack Lee and all the other drinking buddies from the Temple, who's stools are empty.
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I've been following this post for a while and have avoided contributing because I felt the advice given previously was sufficient.
I personally have 2000+ hours in PNG and whole heartedly agree that what you propose is insane.
PNG is a very unforgiving place to fly if you don't follow some basic rules and at 130 hours you won't have a clue about them. I think I survived my time there because I listened very carefully to my trainers - and needed 300 in country minimum before command plus route and strip checks - and you don't think you need that!!!!!!
If this is a "wind up" then please learn that a lot of people have put invaluable advice into this thread and all you have done is p#ss people off by doing your poem thing.
If your poem is serious then perhaps try driving your car into a brick wall at high speed. I'm sure that hasn't been done succesfully. At any rate you'll get the same result as your proposed PNG trip.
Mate if you do go....... can you post your itinerary on this site so that my mates that are still up there can steer well clear of you at the time.
Have a mountain free day!
Tasol.
I personally have 2000+ hours in PNG and whole heartedly agree that what you propose is insane.
PNG is a very unforgiving place to fly if you don't follow some basic rules and at 130 hours you won't have a clue about them. I think I survived my time there because I listened very carefully to my trainers - and needed 300 in country minimum before command plus route and strip checks - and you don't think you need that!!!!!!
If this is a "wind up" then please learn that a lot of people have put invaluable advice into this thread and all you have done is p#ss people off by doing your poem thing.
If your poem is serious then perhaps try driving your car into a brick wall at high speed. I'm sure that hasn't been done succesfully. At any rate you'll get the same result as your proposed PNG trip.
Mate if you do go....... can you post your itinerary on this site so that my mates that are still up there can steer well clear of you at the time.
Have a mountain free day!
Tasol.
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To be totally honest with you, I was getting pretty pi$$ed off with all the negativity. When most of you kept saying stuff like when you pop out of a cloud and slam into a rock, it just made me look like a wan7er. Of course I won't be flying through clouds around there. I am a NVFR rated pilot only - if I can't fly in VMC I won't fly at all. I know it's the wet season and there is the chance the conditions will beat me, and I'll have to turn around and fly home. If I make it, it will probably be one of the greatest achievements I've had. If not, atleast I had a go.
I have not disregarded the advice from the forum. I am flying a light twin, and from Daru to Port Moresby I will fly along the 4 or so airports along the coast, so the greatest time between strips is about 50 minutes. IF, and ONLY IF the weather is fine, I will try and fly from Kareema to Nadzab, by my calculations only about 45 minutes, and with VORs at each end, and with a much lower LSALT.
I have balanced the advice here with my flying schools owner who was born in PNG, and my flying schools ground theory teacher who flew up in PNG for 10 years. They are both happy for me to go.
Have a little faith.
Thanks
I have not disregarded the advice from the forum. I am flying a light twin, and from Daru to Port Moresby I will fly along the 4 or so airports along the coast, so the greatest time between strips is about 50 minutes. IF, and ONLY IF the weather is fine, I will try and fly from Kareema to Nadzab, by my calculations only about 45 minutes, and with VORs at each end, and with a much lower LSALT.
I have balanced the advice here with my flying schools owner who was born in PNG, and my flying schools ground theory teacher who flew up in PNG for 10 years. They are both happy for me to go.
Have a little faith.
Thanks
Kerema to Nadzab????????? And you anticipate attempting that, VFR, in the wet season, with 130 hours TT, in a "light twin", with no HF?
I don't recall an opertational VOR at Kerema, only the NDB?
".....it just made me look like a wan7er." Well, now you mention it............ You need your bloody head read!!!!!
"I have balanced the advice here with my flying schools owner who was born in PNG, and my flying schools ground theory teacher who flew up in PNG for 10 years. They are both happy for me to go."
How irresponsible!! Taildragger, Tinpis, OzExpat et al collectively have thousands of hours flying experience in PNG - and you get "..pi$$ed off with all the negativity.."
Find a new flying school whilst you can!
I don't recall an opertational VOR at Kerema, only the NDB?
".....it just made me look like a wan7er." Well, now you mention it............ You need your bloody head read!!!!!
"I have balanced the advice here with my flying schools owner who was born in PNG, and my flying schools ground theory teacher who flew up in PNG for 10 years. They are both happy for me to go."
How irresponsible!! Taildragger, Tinpis, OzExpat et al collectively have thousands of hours flying experience in PNG - and you get "..pi$$ed off with all the negativity.."
Find a new flying school whilst you can!
Last edited by Torres; 19th Jan 2004 at 08:17.
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Safari Suit,
I am sorry that my colleagues and I can't provide you with the answer you're so obviously looking for - tacit approval to "give it a go". I am not calling you a wan*er. But one of the biggest mistakes any pilot can make is to take professional advice to be a personal insult. Especially when you asked for it.
There are many good reasons why all of us have offered our opinion on this thread, but the main one is simple;
We know more about Papua New Guinea than you do.
That is not an insult. It is a fact and it allows us to pass on our experience (I bet if you added it up it'd be well over 20,000 hours in PNG alone) through considered opinion. Whether you choose to heed our opinions is of course entirely up to you, but I would implore you at this point to take personal pride out of the equation and try to balance your keenness to explore the limits of your professional abilities with even a little bit of humility. It might just save you.
If you decide to do this and all that we say doesn't stop you, please AT LEAST consider the following:
1) The only strips for your use between DAU & POM may appear to be adequate, but just because a book says so doesn't mean it will be that way. Unlike Australia, strip maintenance is minimal in PNG and heavy rain can make grass grow QUICKLY. Dirt strips can become mud in minutes and seemingly hard surfaces (like clay) will offer NO BRAKING ACTION AT ALL if wet. Do you know how to ground loop?
2) Kikori (which I suspect is one of the strips you plan on using) is made of Marsden Matting - perforated stainless-steel panels placed end-to-end. It looks nice and hard but make it even a little bit wet and you could very easily slide off the end when landing (have you done your homework on the different types of aquaplaning and more importantly how to avoid/deal with it?). Also Marsden Matting is rough as guts and will probably damage the relatively delicate undercarriage of your average light twin.
3) What will you do if you depart in clear skies, get to your destination only to find that it is covered in cloud, divert to where you started from and discover that it too has clouded over? THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN PNG. The weather is like that.
4) The LSALT between Kerema & Tsile Tsile (NDB near Nadzab) is 11,000 feet. Between Tsile Tsile & Nadzab it is 6,000 feet (almost as high as Mt Koszciusco). Even if you depart on a CAVOK day, what will you do if you have an engine failure enroute, bearing in mind that the law requires light twins to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb only up to 5000 feet AMSL? If you think you can descend visually and remain clear of terrain in the valleys think again. Most of the valleys bottom out at around 2000-4000 feet and end in ridges no lower than 5000 feet. Do you trust yourself to navigate in unfamiliar valleys (probably turbulent), surrounded by 10000 foot peaks, with one engine inoperative? What if you choose the wrong valley to fly up? What if you choose the right one but don't handle the plane like a test pilot and can only maintain 4800 feet?
This is why the PNG authorities require commercial pilots with no previous experience "in country" to perform at least 150 hours ICUS prior to being let loose with passengers.
5) Let's assume things go to plan except the weather, which is fickle to say the least. You can't take-off as the cloud is too thick and it stays that way for a few days. Where are you going to stay if you're in the bush? There are no hotels I can promise you. And have you heard of Malaria.........?
Once again, Safari, I would implore you not to do it. Having lost friends in PNG with much more experience than you I can honestly say that I do care whether or not you go. I wouldn't have written this if I didn't.
P.S - The VOR at Nadzab works just fine. I can't recall Kerema's ever working. In fact I thought it only had an NDB. Which also never worked.
P.P.S - You mention your NVFR. Ignore it, NVFR is illegal in PNG and thinking that it will add to your "bag of tricks" is deceptive. It will just tempt you to take risks. That is not an insult, it is a fact.
I am sorry that my colleagues and I can't provide you with the answer you're so obviously looking for - tacit approval to "give it a go". I am not calling you a wan*er. But one of the biggest mistakes any pilot can make is to take professional advice to be a personal insult. Especially when you asked for it.
There are many good reasons why all of us have offered our opinion on this thread, but the main one is simple;
We know more about Papua New Guinea than you do.
That is not an insult. It is a fact and it allows us to pass on our experience (I bet if you added it up it'd be well over 20,000 hours in PNG alone) through considered opinion. Whether you choose to heed our opinions is of course entirely up to you, but I would implore you at this point to take personal pride out of the equation and try to balance your keenness to explore the limits of your professional abilities with even a little bit of humility. It might just save you.
If you decide to do this and all that we say doesn't stop you, please AT LEAST consider the following:
1) The only strips for your use between DAU & POM may appear to be adequate, but just because a book says so doesn't mean it will be that way. Unlike Australia, strip maintenance is minimal in PNG and heavy rain can make grass grow QUICKLY. Dirt strips can become mud in minutes and seemingly hard surfaces (like clay) will offer NO BRAKING ACTION AT ALL if wet. Do you know how to ground loop?
2) Kikori (which I suspect is one of the strips you plan on using) is made of Marsden Matting - perforated stainless-steel panels placed end-to-end. It looks nice and hard but make it even a little bit wet and you could very easily slide off the end when landing (have you done your homework on the different types of aquaplaning and more importantly how to avoid/deal with it?). Also Marsden Matting is rough as guts and will probably damage the relatively delicate undercarriage of your average light twin.
3) What will you do if you depart in clear skies, get to your destination only to find that it is covered in cloud, divert to where you started from and discover that it too has clouded over? THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN PNG. The weather is like that.
4) The LSALT between Kerema & Tsile Tsile (NDB near Nadzab) is 11,000 feet. Between Tsile Tsile & Nadzab it is 6,000 feet (almost as high as Mt Koszciusco). Even if you depart on a CAVOK day, what will you do if you have an engine failure enroute, bearing in mind that the law requires light twins to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb only up to 5000 feet AMSL? If you think you can descend visually and remain clear of terrain in the valleys think again. Most of the valleys bottom out at around 2000-4000 feet and end in ridges no lower than 5000 feet. Do you trust yourself to navigate in unfamiliar valleys (probably turbulent), surrounded by 10000 foot peaks, with one engine inoperative? What if you choose the wrong valley to fly up? What if you choose the right one but don't handle the plane like a test pilot and can only maintain 4800 feet?
This is why the PNG authorities require commercial pilots with no previous experience "in country" to perform at least 150 hours ICUS prior to being let loose with passengers.
5) Let's assume things go to plan except the weather, which is fickle to say the least. You can't take-off as the cloud is too thick and it stays that way for a few days. Where are you going to stay if you're in the bush? There are no hotels I can promise you. And have you heard of Malaria.........?
Once again, Safari, I would implore you not to do it. Having lost friends in PNG with much more experience than you I can honestly say that I do care whether or not you go. I wouldn't have written this if I didn't.
P.S - The VOR at Nadzab works just fine. I can't recall Kerema's ever working. In fact I thought it only had an NDB. Which also never worked.
P.P.S - You mention your NVFR. Ignore it, NVFR is illegal in PNG and thinking that it will add to your "bag of tricks" is deceptive. It will just tempt you to take risks. That is not an insult, it is a fact.
Last edited by 2daddies; 19th Jan 2004 at 07:18.