Qantas cadet commands?

[swh]

Lancer,

The mud is very clear, just thought you might be able to clear up how a S/O with a co-pilot endorsement, and maybe a co-pilot ME-IR satisfies CAR 5.40 (b) & (c)

(b)the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned

EDIT :

Forgot to mention that in CA0 40.1.0 only allows a ATPL holder to log ICUS, it does not allow a CPL holder to log ICUS, I know lots do ...

10.5 The holder of a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence may log as time in command the total time elapsed during his or her command, in flight, of an aeroplane. He or she may log as co-pilot the total time during which he or she serves as co-pilot.

10.7 The holder of an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence must log his or her flight time in accordance with whichever of the following is applicable:

(a) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command must be entered in his or her log book as time in command;

(b) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command under supervision must be entered in his or her log book as time in command under supervision;

(c) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as co-pilot must be entered in his or her log book as time as co-pilot

[*Lancer*]

swh,

S/Os don't -- F/Os (with command quals) log ICUS in accordance with CAR 5.40... Since you've quoted it already, you already know that part a) says you can log ICUS with a CPL.

[swh]

Lancer,

Reading kegs and ibols posts it would seem s/o's are logging ICUS, and I think that is the point everyone is driving at, regionals are not allowed to do it, but QF mainline seems to get away with it.

I used 3 ICUS hours accrued on the B767 to get to the 250 required for an ATPL a few years back

My understanding is that you cannot get a F/O (and the associated command endorsement and CIR) slot without having the quals for an ATPL, no F/O slot, no command endorsement etc, but logging ICUS as a s/o ? .....

CAR 5.40 DOES NOT say you can LOG ICUS with a CPL

CA0 40.1.0 deals with the LOGGING of flight time for AEROPLANES, CAR 5.40 is a generic reg that applies to helicopters, airships, gyrocopters, and aeroplanes etc. For the helicopter logging go to 40.3.0 para 7.5, Gyroplanes 40.4.0 para 6.8 etc.

If CAR 5.40 was specific to aeroplanes it would read
(1) A person may fly an aeroplane as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a)the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence or an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence;

You need to read CAR 5.40 in conjunction with CAR 2 (Interpretation)
air transport pilot licence means:
(a) an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence; or
(b) an air transport pilot (helicopter) licence.

commercial pilot licence means:
(a) a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence; or
(b) a commercial pilot (helicopter) licence; or
(c) a commercial pilot (gyroplane) licence; or
(d) a commercial pilot (balloon) licence; or
(e) a commercial pilot (airship) licence.

You need to go to the specific section of the CAO for the type of aircraft endorsement concerned to see when you can log ICUS as depending on what licence you have, for aeroplanes (CAO 40.1.0) an ATP(A)L is required to log ICUS.

I remember an accident not so long ago of a cadet flying for a regional at the time hired a light a/c when he was not flying his regular regional jet to gain command time for his ATPL, he was a Jet F/O, he died in that accident building command time.

If it were possible for a CPL holder to get ICUS time whilst working as a F/O on a regional jet, the coroner and the ATSB would have been highly critical of the steps the pilot took to gain his command time. They were not, as he, and the regional airline, were working within the regularity environment that is in law.

I am not advocating that it is safer for you to get ICUS hours in a 767 as apposed to command time in a C150, but that is the regulatory environment we are in.

Reading between the lines, neville_nobody and myself have had direct contact with CASA GA FOIs that do go to this level in reading the regs to issue RCA/NCN's whatever the bill of the month is called.

I do not think the CASA airline FOI's have a good understanding of the CASA initial issue licensing requirements as they do not get the same exposure to licensing issues as they do not get involved with flying schools. They are a gem on CAR 217 approvals, check approvals etc, areas that come under their radar regularly.

Happy Flying

[swh]

DirectAnywhere,

The words "logging of ICUS time" is not in CAR 5.40.

What this means is that a cadet flying as an F/O in an EMB120 cannot log ICUS as they do not have an ATPL, they may meet the requirements of CAR 5.40 (command endorsement, CIR), but they do not meet the requirements of CAO 40.1.10

Same applies to cadets flying the jets.

[Keg]

swh. I held both a command endorsement and a CIR on the 767 with 'just' a CPL. Have to admit I didn't examine it too closely at the time, it was just a piece of paper to carry in the bag. The 3 hours ICUS I was talking about were accrued whilst In Command Under Supervision on a 767 as a First Officer in service with QF- IE, I had 247 hours command and needed the last three to get the ATPL. Interestingly, we only had 'co-pilot' endorsements but command instrument ratings for a number of years and thus couldn't log ICUS times. QF changed that and we have command endorsements(and have had for about three or four(?) years). It was after the change to command endoresements that I could accrue the extra three hours and thus gain the ATPL

Not sure your point though. Are you implying that QF is pulling a dodgy?

[bitter balance]

swh, you do not need an ATPL to log ICUS in a Braz or any other aircraft. You must hold a command endorsement and command instrument rating. There is no swifty, dodgy or exemption in play here.

[swh]

Keg,

I am not suggesting anyone has pulled a dodgy, people are reading CAR 5.40 and making a leap to suggest that paragraph says you can log time as ICUS, the paragraph makes no mention of logging of flight time, that is in the CAO's.

Sounds like a good question for the reading comprehension stage of the QF selection process.

What has happened here is people are changing terms in their head thinking that CAR 5.40 says something is does not, CAR 5.40 talks about aircraft, CPL, and ATPL. CAO 40.1.0 talks about aeroplanes, CP(A)L and ATP(A)L.

Feel free to contact the office of legal council to clarify this.

BB

Please read CAO 40.1.0 paragraph 10 below, and extract from that paragraph where you can log ICUS in an aeroplane without an ATPL.

10 LOGGING OF FLIGHT TIME
10.2 Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his or her log book as “dual” and the pilot giving the instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given.
10.3 The holder of a student pilot licence may log as time in command only that time during which he or she is the sole occupant of an aeroplane in flight.
10.4 The holder of a private pilot (aeroplane) licence may log as time in command only that time during which he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane.
10.5 The holder of a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence may log as time in command the total time elapsed during his or her command, in flight, of an aeroplane. He or she may log as co-pilot the total time during which he or she serves as co-pilot.
10.7 The holder of an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence must log his or her flight time in accordance with whichever of the following is applicable:
(a) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command must be entered in his or her log book as time in command;
(b) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command under supervision must be entered in his or her log book as time in command under supervision;
(c) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as co-pilot must be entered in his or her log book as time as co-pilot.
10.8 The holder of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating may log as time in command the total flight time during which he or she is acting as an instructor, but log entries shall show that the flight time was as an instructor.
10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Note: Instrument flight time shall only be logged by one pilot at a time.

DirectAnywhere,

Provided they meet the requirements of CAR 5.40 they can fly with a CPL as Pilot ICUS.

Correct, but the CP(A)L holder must log it as co-pilot in accordance with CAO 40.1.0.

[swh]

What if that student pilot's licence is endorsed with a GFPT and that pilot takes passengers on a local flight?

PIC as it is considered to be the same at the old RPPL, that what you used to receive before the GFPT was brought in, sounds like before your time.

The command/ICUS x/country time may be obtained on other aircraft (ie gyroplanes, helicopter, airships), or under a licence from another contracting state, ie not in a VH registered, or not under an Australian licence.

You do not need 100 hours in aeroplanes cross country in Australia, it is to see you can map read, so it can be obtained in any country, in any form of aircraft.

The nub of the problem is people reading things which are not in there.

EDIT : FYI CAO 40.1.0 was last updated on 11/9/2002 .....

Can you tell me what the dispo number is ? Have you actually seen it ?

[bitter balance]

swh, are you seriously suggesting that only ATPL holders can log ICUS in Australia?

[Next Generation]

bitter balance

are you seriously suggesting that only ATPL holders can log ICUS in Australia?

RTFQ

Why do you arm-chair experts continue to just read the bits that you want to read ????????

swh is not suggesting, but stating that in order to do ICUS in "MULTI-PILOT" aircraft engaged in RPT or Charter ops, yes you must hold an ATPL.

If you have the money, you can Private Hire yourself a B-747 and log ICUS all day long.

Simple really isn't it.

[*Lancer*]

DirectAnywhere,

Not adiffering with you.... totally agree with everything you said, and just to clarify, S/Os don't log ICUS - noone ever said they did! With 100 PIC, you can become a L/H F/O... that's exactly why its a requirement for employment of cadets.

SWH,

The CAR is very clear and specific... but the CAO is not. In fact, the CAO is all written with advisory language anyway ('may' this and 'may' that). Perhaps you're reading too much into it? The concept of legally flying in a certain operation without legally 'logging' it is clearly flawed!

Next Generation,

That's exactly what swh is suggesting! The CAO quote implies that CPLs can't log ICUS at all...

Alright, I'm pulling out too before we get into a spiral dive

[Keg]

Before Lancer? I reckon we've been in one for about the last 30 posts!

[bitter balance]

Next Gen, re-read swh's post. Armchair expert I may be, but if you really think that only ATPL holders can log ICUS in multi crew aircraft, what does that make you?