Brindabella Woes...
Bik,
As you've put up a reasoned, sensible post, I will reply.
All points noted and respected, but I will make a couple of points:-
If that's the case, they've got real problems. I get the idea you spend some time with a white rat on your tail (correctme if that's wrong) and even they (and I!!) stuff up, be it with one, two or four pilots up front. If a companies MO assumes that it can rely on ANYONE not to make errors, they will not be in business long. Until we are replaced by robots, error is part of the price of doing business.
OK, so Brindabella sack their gear up pilot and hire you. Problem solved? As you've said, it could happen to you. They haven't got a pilot they can rely on to "get it right every time." They've got you, or me, or any other human being, still just as capable of making a balls up in the right (wrong?) circumstances. And lets say you DO gear up (or any other equally serious mistake), will you take up accountancy? Is it the end of your carreer? Or will you continue and try and find employment else where? (As has been stated, half the senior guys in QF wouldn't be there if that was the case!). So if you're going to continue flying, why shouldn't your current employer have the benifit of your (now expanded!) experience?
Negative motivation is rarely productive, look how ineffective it is at preventing crime! You're assuming people will be more vigilant if they think their job is on the line. Neither theory nor experience bears this out, and as such "no blame" cultures are being recognised as the best way to minimise error.
As to my Resume, I regret that post, but it was in response to this:-
"Wizofoz,
Why is it that this forum is abound with the shallow thinker. Read into any argument as shallow as you have and allow your ego to be tampered with in such a way as youve demonstrated, and an inevitably stupid post follows."
I felt a TAD insulting and over the top? My suggestion was that if meanest was so scathing of error, he must feel he couldn't have been capable of it.
BIK, this will always be contentious, and I respect your opinion, but politley continue to dis-agree with it.
Edited because Walter was writting at the same time as me! Walter, what you've described is the very essence of a no blame saftey culture as I now work under and as is being promoted as the way forward for air saftey. Encourage the reporting and analysis of error, don't pretend it won't happen and have people covering up for fear of retribution!
As you've put up a reasoned, sensible post, I will reply.
All points noted and respected, but I will make a couple of points:-
Companies that operate single-pilot aircraft place an enormous amount of faith in their pilots – they rely implicitly on their pilots to get it right every time.
There but for the grace of god go I – but I’d still expect to get sacked all the same
it sends the message “Stuff up here and you'll be shown the door”
As to my Resume, I regret that post, but it was in response to this:-
"Wizofoz,
Why is it that this forum is abound with the shallow thinker. Read into any argument as shallow as you have and allow your ego to be tampered with in such a way as youve demonstrated, and an inevitably stupid post follows."
I felt a TAD insulting and over the top? My suggestion was that if meanest was so scathing of error, he must feel he couldn't have been capable of it.
BIK, this will always be contentious, and I respect your opinion, but politley continue to dis-agree with it.
Edited because Walter was writting at the same time as me! Walter, what you've described is the very essence of a no blame saftey culture as I now work under and as is being promoted as the way forward for air saftey. Encourage the reporting and analysis of error, don't pretend it won't happen and have people covering up for fear of retribution!
BIK Your post mentions pilots being well paid.
Do you consider the Chieftain pilot was well paid or for that matter any SPIFR GA pilot is well paid?
Do you consider the Chieftain pilot was well paid or for that matter any SPIFR GA pilot is well paid?
PPRuNe's Paramedic
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BIK - oh gawd not THAT chieftain.... was a nice plane! They never quite fly the same again after a prang...
Megles - how soon they forget the trauma of a GA pilots pay.... and BIK you had the limo compared to the XF!
I sure as hell wont!
Megles - how soon they forget the trauma of a GA pilots pay.... and BIK you had the limo compared to the XF!
I sure as hell wont!
G'day all,
been a while since I've been on so time to defend my comments.
Form my previous post about a "cover up" if you guys could read between the lines I was not finger pointing and as for the physical assualt... common guys been sensible... How many CP would deck one of their Pilots????? But wouldn't after being fired for a really easy but costly and possibly dangerous accident feel like a "punch in the nose" from the CP.. especially after you bash youself up for doing it in the first place.
So Johnny Utah things are not always as they seem.. dont take it personally.
Now thats out of the way arn't pilots meant to be gentlmen guys?
Its funny that you say a Multi-crew pilot from an airliner would be as efficient in Single Pilot IFR ops then a person who regurarly practices Single Pilot IFR ops. I know many an airline captain who would not poke a stick at Single pilot IFR ops until they have practice at it or even want to go back. Think about how you would feel being thrown inside a C421 in bad waether Single Pilot IFR ops without the guy next to you briefing with you on the appraoch and helping the set the damn thing up with you....... monitoring the appraoch with you, making sure evrything in properly set up.
remember you will never have time to make all the mistake in Aviation.. so you must learn off others. Single pilot IFR is dangerous..... especially if you dont do it regularly.
been a while since I've been on so time to defend my comments.
Form my previous post about a "cover up" if you guys could read between the lines I was not finger pointing and as for the physical assualt... common guys been sensible... How many CP would deck one of their Pilots????? But wouldn't after being fired for a really easy but costly and possibly dangerous accident feel like a "punch in the nose" from the CP.. especially after you bash youself up for doing it in the first place.
So Johnny Utah things are not always as they seem.. dont take it personally.
Now thats out of the way arn't pilots meant to be gentlmen guys?
Its funny that you say a Multi-crew pilot from an airliner would be as efficient in Single Pilot IFR ops then a person who regurarly practices Single Pilot IFR ops. I know many an airline captain who would not poke a stick at Single pilot IFR ops until they have practice at it or even want to go back. Think about how you would feel being thrown inside a C421 in bad waether Single Pilot IFR ops without the guy next to you briefing with you on the appraoch and helping the set the damn thing up with you....... monitoring the appraoch with you, making sure evrything in properly set up.
remember you will never have time to make all the mistake in Aviation.. so you must learn off others. Single pilot IFR is dangerous..... especially if you dont do it regularly.
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Bula, in your original post on this topic you said;
"after the accident the pilot was asked by his CP what had happened to which he replied the gear collapsed on landing. The CP left the room the give the pilot time to think, came back in and answered to which the pilot replied the same response."
This is total bull**** in every respect. You owe the PIC an apology. This bears no resemblance to what happened. You ask "arn't (sic) pilots meant to be gentlmen (sic) guys?". If you are you'll have no problem apologising.
Although a diversion - the aggressive behaviour that Johnny Utah refers to did occur, didn't involve a sore nose and didn't involve the CP.
"after the accident the pilot was asked by his CP what had happened to which he replied the gear collapsed on landing. The CP left the room the give the pilot time to think, came back in and answered to which the pilot replied the same response."
This is total bull**** in every respect. You owe the PIC an apology. This bears no resemblance to what happened. You ask "arn't (sic) pilots meant to be gentlmen (sic) guys?". If you are you'll have no problem apologising.
Although a diversion - the aggressive behaviour that Johnny Utah refers to did occur, didn't involve a sore nose and didn't involve the CP.
bula - here is your original post, word for word:
I was well aware of the fact that the CP did not assault the pilot. However, you were either straight out lying, or had your facts terribly confused (i.e were making it up) when you made your post alleging that the CP had in fact assaulted the pilot.
I suggest that you make a public retraction here on PPrune of your earlier post, and apologise to both the Pilot involved & the Chief Pilot of Brindabella Airlines for slandering their character. Your previous snivelling effort at claiming your earlier comments were misinterpreted was disgraceful. Nothing less than a full retraction will make amends for your previous efforts.
In response to your other claim - I didn't make any claims about any sort of crew being more or less efficient in flying Single pilot Ops. I was responding to Pitch & Break, who stated that:
Take it as you will, but I read that to infer that those of us who fly in a multi crew environment are somehow deficient as opposed to those who are flying in a single pilot environment. Having flown single pilot IFR in a C402 in PNG, I am more than aware of the differences involved (hence my response to BIK). However, I don't think that it necessarily makes one group of pilot more/less skilled than the other. My original reply used the word 'deficient' - you might want to check out the difference...
The ball is back in your court now - I'll be waiting out for your apology...
The CP left the room the give the pilot time to think, came back in and answered to which the pilot replied the same response. At that point he was given the sore nose.
I suggest that you make a public retraction here on PPrune of your earlier post, and apologise to both the Pilot involved & the Chief Pilot of Brindabella Airlines for slandering their character. Your previous snivelling effort at claiming your earlier comments were misinterpreted was disgraceful. Nothing less than a full retraction will make amends for your previous efforts.
In response to your other claim - I didn't make any claims about any sort of crew being more or less efficient in flying Single pilot Ops. I was responding to Pitch & Break, who stated that:
Interesting to note that ALL those drivers are now employed IN THE MULTI CREW ROLE....perhaps they couldn't cut the mustard in single pilot ops?
The ball is back in your court now - I'll be waiting out for your apology...
Thread Starter
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Hey BIK 116.80 - you sure that the pilot was paid that well? I don't think they're paid as well as they should be - given their responsibility and workload compared to pilots further up the chain. - What do you think?
Bo!
Bo!
Admittidly the facts I received from down there were totally wrong by the looks of it. It was only what I had heard on "the grape vine" that is GA. Apologies to the people down there, I know some of them and they are all good guys though the wording or "a sore nose" was not meant literally though other posts said it may have been.
I think I'll give my contact a call and give him a piece aswell. There was no intent to slander or misconstru information. It was only what I was informed about.
I think I'll give my contact a call and give him a piece aswell. There was no intent to slander or misconstru information. It was only what I was informed about.
Icarus- no, that's not the case at all.
To end this on a positive note, the pilot involved has now found work elsewhere. All the best to him, and let's hope that this incident doesnt continue to adversely affect either he or Brindabella.
All's well that ends well - I guess...
To end this on a positive note, the pilot involved has now found work elsewhere. All the best to him, and let's hope that this incident doesnt continue to adversely affect either he or Brindabella.
All's well that ends well - I guess...
From an engineering point of view (I am not an engineer) something that always perplexes me with G/A aircraft....
Why is it that there is a perfectly good means of avoiding a wheels up fitted to every R/U aircraft (that I am aware of) that is never correctly set. In all of the R/U aircraft that I fly/ have flown, the throttle has had a microswitch installed set to a throttle position that is (supposed to be) set to a corresponding MAP setting that would indicate an imminent landing (i.e: power setting too low for sustained flight under normal circumstances, perhaps with the exception of holding)
This microswitch is never set to the said throttle position, and as a result is as useful as a flyscreen door on a submarine.
I do not know the complexities of the adjustment, however I am under the impression that such an adjustment is not beyond the scope of the imagination for your typical engineering outfit.
It is not my point whether or not a pilot is distracted, negligent, culpable or just plain dumb. People are people and as such will make mistakes. Arguably, ONE of the significant factors that contribute to the undercarriage being selected down an equal amount of times to it being selected up would be GPWS. However this system is as we know, not generally fitted to your standard PA-31.
All Boeing pilots are well briefed on the meaning of the aural warning "TOO LOW, GEAR!"
If this microswitch were to be appropriately fitted and adjusted in these aircraft (system can be checked every time aircraft is jacked) I think we would all but see the end of these accidents.
If 99.9% of accidents (generally speaking) are a combination of system failures, why does it seem to go unnoticed that this particular system is never working.
It should be said that it doesn't work on the aircraft that I am flying either despite discussions that I have had with engineering.
Willie
Why is it that there is a perfectly good means of avoiding a wheels up fitted to every R/U aircraft (that I am aware of) that is never correctly set. In all of the R/U aircraft that I fly/ have flown, the throttle has had a microswitch installed set to a throttle position that is (supposed to be) set to a corresponding MAP setting that would indicate an imminent landing (i.e: power setting too low for sustained flight under normal circumstances, perhaps with the exception of holding)
This microswitch is never set to the said throttle position, and as a result is as useful as a flyscreen door on a submarine.
I do not know the complexities of the adjustment, however I am under the impression that such an adjustment is not beyond the scope of the imagination for your typical engineering outfit.
It is not my point whether or not a pilot is distracted, negligent, culpable or just plain dumb. People are people and as such will make mistakes. Arguably, ONE of the significant factors that contribute to the undercarriage being selected down an equal amount of times to it being selected up would be GPWS. However this system is as we know, not generally fitted to your standard PA-31.
All Boeing pilots are well briefed on the meaning of the aural warning "TOO LOW, GEAR!"
If this microswitch were to be appropriately fitted and adjusted in these aircraft (system can be checked every time aircraft is jacked) I think we would all but see the end of these accidents.
If 99.9% of accidents (generally speaking) are a combination of system failures, why does it seem to go unnoticed that this particular system is never working.
It should be said that it doesn't work on the aircraft that I am flying either despite discussions that I have had with engineering.
Willie
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Willie Nelson
These adjustments are not hard to do – you just need a baseline reference to work with. Many moons ago, I use to place a piece of masking tape on the throttle quadrant a few flights prior to the 100hrly, so that the pilot(s) could mark on it EXACTLY where the gear horn was/should be going off in relation to the throttle positions. Simple and effective means of verifying the system as rigged or requiring adjustment – and you already had the mark to move the rigging to kindly provided by one of your flying team.
On another note, I knew of a few good pilots who were caught out in PNG flying Barons around the hills. The practice by some was to pop the gear horn CB to get rid of that annoying sound while stooging around the hills at low speed and flap out. You see, “in rig” gear warning was too high a setting for the type of ops we were flying. Unfortunately, this resulted in more than one embarrassing moment with a Baron sitting on the strip and the wheels tucked nicely way in the wells.
Can't comment on Brindy's rigging, but I am sure there engineering guys would have it rigged as near as spot on as you could get.
These adjustments are not hard to do – you just need a baseline reference to work with. Many moons ago, I use to place a piece of masking tape on the throttle quadrant a few flights prior to the 100hrly, so that the pilot(s) could mark on it EXACTLY where the gear horn was/should be going off in relation to the throttle positions. Simple and effective means of verifying the system as rigged or requiring adjustment – and you already had the mark to move the rigging to kindly provided by one of your flying team.
On another note, I knew of a few good pilots who were caught out in PNG flying Barons around the hills. The practice by some was to pop the gear horn CB to get rid of that annoying sound while stooging around the hills at low speed and flap out. You see, “in rig” gear warning was too high a setting for the type of ops we were flying. Unfortunately, this resulted in more than one embarrassing moment with a Baron sitting on the strip and the wheels tucked nicely way in the wells.
Can't comment on Brindy's rigging, but I am sure there engineering guys would have it rigged as near as spot on as you could get.
Willie Nelson
My point from several pages ago exactly!
Few aircraft have it set properly. No proficient pilot should have the throttle to the very low/idle until the flare. By then the BWAAAAAH is too late!
CS
Few aircraft have it set properly. No proficient pilot should have the throttle to the very low/idle until the flare. By then the BWAAAAAH is too late!
CS
