Sea Jet
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WEBF
"Three F15s did not win even one dogfight with the SHARS tonight."
Night doggers - whoa! Guess the rules have changed a lot since I was on the Front Line :-) Did night BFM by 'accident' once (well, dusk) - when I started assessing bandit aspect by looking at the apparent length of his burner plumes I thought it would be a good idea to stop - now a Shar would have had the upper hand there, no burner plumes for the opponent to assess aspect with!
Always found the Shar dues really really good at BVR stuff (got my ass kicked by them many times in the past) but desperately poor (due to the aircraft, not the driver - usually!) at 'Dogfighting' as your, obviously well informed (!), friend called it.
But, IMHO, one mish is not the whole story - people have bad days, whole formations have kit problems, GCI problems, tanker faffs etc etc - and this often completely turns the tables on the 'on paper' predictions. Don't get me wrong - I'm not 'anti-Shar', I'm just saying that one 'floor mop' is great to brag about in the bar - but (IMHE) you need to look at it within the big picture of things.
All the best,
MT
"Three F15s did not win even one dogfight with the SHARS tonight."
Night doggers - whoa! Guess the rules have changed a lot since I was on the Front Line :-) Did night BFM by 'accident' once (well, dusk) - when I started assessing bandit aspect by looking at the apparent length of his burner plumes I thought it would be a good idea to stop - now a Shar would have had the upper hand there, no burner plumes for the opponent to assess aspect with!
Always found the Shar dues really really good at BVR stuff (got my ass kicked by them many times in the past) but desperately poor (due to the aircraft, not the driver - usually!) at 'Dogfighting' as your, obviously well informed (!), friend called it.
But, IMHO, one mish is not the whole story - people have bad days, whole formations have kit problems, GCI problems, tanker faffs etc etc - and this often completely turns the tables on the 'on paper' predictions. Don't get me wrong - I'm not 'anti-Shar', I'm just saying that one 'floor mop' is great to brag about in the bar - but (IMHE) you need to look at it within the big picture of things.
All the best,
MT
Suspicion breeds confidence
Lusty refit
Warship World reported a "pronounced bump" in the original ski jump requiring its replacement. Seem a poor bit of engineering if true. Here the story from RN site.
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/5767.html
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/5767.html
Suspicion breeds confidence
Shar ACM
Mobius,
I understand that the trick in ACM with the FA2 is not to enter a turning fight but to use the aircraft's capability to point itself in any direction to get the best of your adversary. It can do this better than just about anything including an F15.
I understand that the trick in ACM with the FA2 is not to enter a turning fight but to use the aircraft's capability to point itself in any direction to get the best of your adversary. It can do this better than just about anything including an F15.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Navaleye
Thanks for the link. I wonder if they are fitting a new ramp to change the exit angle and bring it in line with the others of the class?
If there was an serious error in the original circular arc profile half way up the ramp then at that point the nose tyre and oleo would be already well compressed by up to 3 g and in these conditions it would not need too much to bottom the oleo. But if so they seem to have lived with it for some time.
Thanks for the link. I wonder if they are fitting a new ramp to change the exit angle and bring it in line with the others of the class?
If there was an serious error in the original circular arc profile half way up the ramp then at that point the nose tyre and oleo would be already well compressed by up to 3 g and in these conditions it would not need too much to bottom the oleo. But if so they seem to have lived with it for some time.
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Lusty's Refit
A long laundry list of improvements - certainly doesnt sound like the ship I have spent long periods at sea in.
Sniffs of getting ready to sell it n'est pas?
Sniffs of getting ready to sell it n'est pas?
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Navaleye,
Bit confused (genuinely, not being sarcastic) - does the FA2 have a wicked AoA capability then, is that what you mean? If you are pointing (obvious caveats added) and not turning (conventionally) then you must have alpha on (although I do realise that the FA2 can do some bizarre things with nozzles and suchlike)? An F18 can also outpoint an F15 etc, - wondered if it was the same deal. But remember - it's one thing being able to point at someone, it's another thing (as I am sure you know) to be able to........ It does take a good / trained eye to know when to 'accept' being pointed at!
I have never seen an FA2 do anything 'odd' in BFM/ACM except the monster slowy-down thing (which caused my eyes to pop out of their sockets) - or maybe he departed and just called it a viff in the debrief? :-)
I have to say that I'd love to have a go in the FA2 (or even the GR), the whole hovering thing has always seemed fun. I think you have a nice aeroplane chap - enjoy! Hats off to the dudes who land those things on boats (or fields, car parks etc!).
MT
Bit confused (genuinely, not being sarcastic) - does the FA2 have a wicked AoA capability then, is that what you mean? If you are pointing (obvious caveats added) and not turning (conventionally) then you must have alpha on (although I do realise that the FA2 can do some bizarre things with nozzles and suchlike)? An F18 can also outpoint an F15 etc, - wondered if it was the same deal. But remember - it's one thing being able to point at someone, it's another thing (as I am sure you know) to be able to........ It does take a good / trained eye to know when to 'accept' being pointed at!
I have never seen an FA2 do anything 'odd' in BFM/ACM except the monster slowy-down thing (which caused my eyes to pop out of their sockets) - or maybe he departed and just called it a viff in the debrief? :-)
I have to say that I'd love to have a go in the FA2 (or even the GR), the whole hovering thing has always seemed fun. I think you have a nice aeroplane chap - enjoy! Hats off to the dudes who land those things on boats (or fields, car parks etc!).
MT
Last edited by MobiusTrip; 27th Jan 2004 at 11:41.
Suspicion breeds confidence
FA2 ACM capability
Mobius,
I've never flown a Harrier, so I can't vouch for its capabilities personally. However I have I met several FJ pilots from several countries who speak very highly of its capabilities. In visual range combat its small size and (almost) smoke free engine make it very difficult to spot and it is a difficult aircraft to defeat unless you have been specifically trained in anti-harrier tactics. In BVR, who knows? Its more down to the combo of radar and missiles, although by all account the FA2 acquits itself well. Maybe John Farley can elaborate on its capabilities vs conventional fighters.
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/...php3?page=6023
Oggin,
I'm pretty certain that Illustious and Ark Royal will stay on until the new carriers are completed. During the 80's and 90's Invincible was driven pretty hard while other two were used much less so. Ark spent many years alongside at Pompey without her engines. Invincible is scheduled to decom in 2006 and she has recently had a modest refit to stretch her that long. I would like to see her converted into an LPH, however her crew size will probably preclude this.
Lusty's refit will make her the most modern of the three. Ark has one more major refit scheduled in 2008/9.
As for Invincible, I suspect the advert in the newsagents window will read something like this:
For Sale. One 20,000 ton CVS (with potential for LPH conversion). Well maintained throughout with FSH. Comes complete with fixed wing (FA2) and rotary airgroup (SK6). Best offers in the region of £75m secures.
Gotta believe that India is already sniffing around her.
I've never flown a Harrier, so I can't vouch for its capabilities personally. However I have I met several FJ pilots from several countries who speak very highly of its capabilities. In visual range combat its small size and (almost) smoke free engine make it very difficult to spot and it is a difficult aircraft to defeat unless you have been specifically trained in anti-harrier tactics. In BVR, who knows? Its more down to the combo of radar and missiles, although by all account the FA2 acquits itself well. Maybe John Farley can elaborate on its capabilities vs conventional fighters.
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/...php3?page=6023
Oggin,
I'm pretty certain that Illustious and Ark Royal will stay on until the new carriers are completed. During the 80's and 90's Invincible was driven pretty hard while other two were used much less so. Ark spent many years alongside at Pompey without her engines. Invincible is scheduled to decom in 2006 and she has recently had a modest refit to stretch her that long. I would like to see her converted into an LPH, however her crew size will probably preclude this.
Lusty's refit will make her the most modern of the three. Ark has one more major refit scheduled in 2008/9.
As for Invincible, I suspect the advert in the newsagents window will read something like this:
For Sale. One 20,000 ton CVS (with potential for LPH conversion). Well maintained throughout with FSH. Comes complete with fixed wing (FA2) and rotary airgroup (SK6). Best offers in the region of £75m secures.
Gotta believe that India is already sniffing around her.
Navaleye,
they might, but their first priority is going to be paying for the Gorshkov. JDW reported that a deal to buy the carrier and the MiG-29 air group has been signed. Not sure that FA 2 is such a good choice for the Indians in some ways - it'd come without AMRAAM, so something else (AA-12? MICA?) would have to be integrated, etc, etc
they might, but their first priority is going to be paying for the Gorshkov. JDW reported that a deal to buy the carrier and the MiG-29 air group has been signed. Not sure that FA 2 is such a good choice for the Indians in some ways - it'd come without AMRAAM, so something else (AA-12? MICA?) would have to be integrated, etc, etc
Suspicion breeds confidence
Archimedes,
Yes, very true about the Gorshkov. The deal for her has been about to be signed for at least three years. In the meantine she' sitting at her berth without proper maintenance and slowly decaying. All her sisters were "retired early" due to mechanical problems. Even the Kusnetsov has never undertaken an operational deployment because she shares the same machinery. You can fix most problems with enough money, but the Indians are not known for throwing large sums of dosh around.
I suspect that Invincible and the FA2 (sans AMRAAM) will become attractive as an interim solution until their home grown ADS becomes a reality. I hear from RichardB on the RN board that the disposals agency has already given India a quote for Invincible and her FA2s.
Yes, very true about the Gorshkov. The deal for her has been about to be signed for at least three years. In the meantine she' sitting at her berth without proper maintenance and slowly decaying. All her sisters were "retired early" due to mechanical problems. Even the Kusnetsov has never undertaken an operational deployment because she shares the same machinery. You can fix most problems with enough money, but the Indians are not known for throwing large sums of dosh around.
I suspect that Invincible and the FA2 (sans AMRAAM) will become attractive as an interim solution until their home grown ADS becomes a reality. I hear from RichardB on the RN board that the disposals agency has already given India a quote for Invincible and her FA2s.
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JF,
The RN have had to live with Lusty's ramp anomalies ever since she came in to service. You are no doubt familiar with the Endspeed graphs for ramp launches. Well, there are two sets, one for the Invincible class and one for Lusty herself!
Navaleye,
The last time I saw Bertie Penfold he was flying Hunters at Yeovs in the '90s. I can't remember if he switched to the Hawk when it replaced the Hunter, and/or whether he moved to Culdrose/Bournmouth with the company. Last time I flew with him he was still an outstanding fighter pilot and true gentleman.
Mobius,
If I may answer your question to Navaleye: The FA2's turn rate cannot compete with the latest generation of fighters. It's radius, relatively speaking, is able to compete a bit better. One of its BFM strengths is the ability to fly very slowly in a scissors or tree (well below 100kt). It can't really exchange speed for outrageous amounts of alpha in the same way a Hornet can-so an opponent won't get any 'pointing surprises' from it. Unfortunately, VIFF has been blown up by the media as some kind of super-weapon. The reality is that VIFF can, in the right circumstances, for a limited amount of time, allow you to make a very costly speed to turn-rate conversion. When defensive it can also create an awesome deceleration. That catches most people out first time; not so many after that. You sound like a fighter pilot so I guess you understand the consequences of blowing your speed away. If I had to choose between the two jets for a WVR fight I'd choose the Eagle. Then again, if I had to choose for a BVR fight I'd choose...the Eagle! Sometimes the truth isn't as pretty as we want it to be. Although....at least in a Harrier you can land in a pub car park after your runway's been blown up
The RN have had to live with Lusty's ramp anomalies ever since she came in to service. You are no doubt familiar with the Endspeed graphs for ramp launches. Well, there are two sets, one for the Invincible class and one for Lusty herself!
Navaleye,
The last time I saw Bertie Penfold he was flying Hunters at Yeovs in the '90s. I can't remember if he switched to the Hawk when it replaced the Hunter, and/or whether he moved to Culdrose/Bournmouth with the company. Last time I flew with him he was still an outstanding fighter pilot and true gentleman.
Mobius,
If I may answer your question to Navaleye: The FA2's turn rate cannot compete with the latest generation of fighters. It's radius, relatively speaking, is able to compete a bit better. One of its BFM strengths is the ability to fly very slowly in a scissors or tree (well below 100kt). It can't really exchange speed for outrageous amounts of alpha in the same way a Hornet can-so an opponent won't get any 'pointing surprises' from it. Unfortunately, VIFF has been blown up by the media as some kind of super-weapon. The reality is that VIFF can, in the right circumstances, for a limited amount of time, allow you to make a very costly speed to turn-rate conversion. When defensive it can also create an awesome deceleration. That catches most people out first time; not so many after that. You sound like a fighter pilot so I guess you understand the consequences of blowing your speed away. If I had to choose between the two jets for a WVR fight I'd choose the Eagle. Then again, if I had to choose for a BVR fight I'd choose...the Eagle! Sometimes the truth isn't as pretty as we want it to be. Although....at least in a Harrier you can land in a pub car park after your runway's been blown up
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Navaleye,
It's not just down to radar and missiles me old! SA (which is, I'll agree, radar related to a large extent) plays a vast factor in the outcome :-) I've never heard of specific 'anti-Harrier' tactics before (and I've played with them lots - sts). Yes, the viff thing is an eye popper when you see it the first time, but other than that, it's just 'another jet' in the BFM arena.
Nozzles,
I see what you are saying about radius, prolly explains why one 1 O fight went on for an eternity once. The viff thing did 'get' me the first time I saw it, I was a young dude and my flight lead rather helpfully briefed me (which I suppose was, in hindsight, an 'anti- Harrier' technique - soz Navaleye) on the viff thus:
".....Oh, and watch out for the viff thing"
Spiffing, great, ripple of applause.... It was in fact the defensive Harrier (as you alluded to) that 'surprised' me - suddenly a HUD full of metal followed by a groin full of control column shortly afterwards...
And yes, being able to land in the Pub car park must be nice! Very honest of you about the F15 - I'd rather have one of those too (well, several in fact).
MT
It's not just down to radar and missiles me old! SA (which is, I'll agree, radar related to a large extent) plays a vast factor in the outcome :-) I've never heard of specific 'anti-Harrier' tactics before (and I've played with them lots - sts). Yes, the viff thing is an eye popper when you see it the first time, but other than that, it's just 'another jet' in the BFM arena.
Nozzles,
I see what you are saying about radius, prolly explains why one 1 O fight went on for an eternity once. The viff thing did 'get' me the first time I saw it, I was a young dude and my flight lead rather helpfully briefed me (which I suppose was, in hindsight, an 'anti- Harrier' technique - soz Navaleye) on the viff thus:
".....Oh, and watch out for the viff thing"
Spiffing, great, ripple of applause.... It was in fact the defensive Harrier (as you alluded to) that 'surprised' me - suddenly a HUD full of metal followed by a groin full of control column shortly afterwards...
And yes, being able to land in the Pub car park must be nice! Very honest of you about the F15 - I'd rather have one of those too (well, several in fact).
MT
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Nozzles,
I was, in that time frame, at the end of my CFS 'penance' tour (dragged there kicking, screaming and sulking) so it wasn't me. Actually I mustn't speak too harshly of CFS, it did teach me some wonderful instructional techniques and phrases that I remembered being used on me when I was a student:
IP to student (who was previously flying well):
"Oookey dokey, was that decision a good one then?"
- Student immediately crumbles and spoons everything up (decision was in fact a good one, but 'IP seed of doubt' was sown).
Or how about (and this was used on me at TWU):
"You're worthless"
Followed shortly by:
"What are you???"
Excellent, great traditions to keep alive (!!!).
Perhaps we may have merged some other time though - it's a small world....
MT
I was, in that time frame, at the end of my CFS 'penance' tour (dragged there kicking, screaming and sulking) so it wasn't me. Actually I mustn't speak too harshly of CFS, it did teach me some wonderful instructional techniques and phrases that I remembered being used on me when I was a student:
IP to student (who was previously flying well):
"Oookey dokey, was that decision a good one then?"
- Student immediately crumbles and spoons everything up (decision was in fact a good one, but 'IP seed of doubt' was sown).
Or how about (and this was used on me at TWU):
"You're worthless"
Followed shortly by:
"What are you???"
Excellent, great traditions to keep alive (!!!).
Perhaps we may have merged some other time though - it's a small world....
MT
AMRAAM Question
Back to the main issue(s)...
I think we established some time ago that the main airborne threat to naval/maritime forces comes from missiles, many of which are air launched. The most effective method of dealing with this threat is using fighters to deal with the launch platform before it gets within firing range, or at least at a range beyond shipborne wapons. This is, perhaps, the crux of the debate.
However if the missiles do get fired would it be possible for AMRAAM to engage them? Can an aircraft equipped with a suitable radar (eg Blue Vixen, APG 65 ec) and AMRAAM deal with non aircraft (ie missile) targets?
Also this could apply to surface or submarine launched missiles, particularly the latest Russian and Chinese ones that are long ranged and have speeds of Mach 3 or 4.
I think we established some time ago that the main airborne threat to naval/maritime forces comes from missiles, many of which are air launched. The most effective method of dealing with this threat is using fighters to deal with the launch platform before it gets within firing range, or at least at a range beyond shipborne wapons. This is, perhaps, the crux of the debate.
However if the missiles do get fired would it be possible for AMRAAM to engage them? Can an aircraft equipped with a suitable radar (eg Blue Vixen, APG 65 ec) and AMRAAM deal with non aircraft (ie missile) targets?
Also this could apply to surface or submarine launched missiles, particularly the latest Russian and Chinese ones that are long ranged and have speeds of Mach 3 or 4.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Smoketoomuch
Somewhere there is a dusty old paper that you would find interesting.........
In the mid seventies when Dunsfold and Kingston were trying hard to help the RN get what was to become the SHAR the RN used Dunsfold as a venue for a major brief of the Minister of Defence of the day. I sat in the back in case they needed a company pilot input. The various staffers did a really excellent job at explaining the Bear D mid-course guidance threat at 35000ft and that the only thing that could shoot them down in mid Atlantic was a Sidewinder equipped SHAR operating from a Through Deck Cruiser.
As befits such an occasion there were several four stars in the front row looking after the Minister and when the officer at the lectern asked if the Minister had any questions they all looked perfectly happy because the RN had clearly put forward an unanswerable case.
The first question the Minister asked was, “Why not put the Sidewinders on your Sea Kings?”
There followed a very lengthy and very palpable silence broken eventually by the staffer asking his boss if he would like to take that question. Boss declined but he did undertake to study the Minister's suggestion and report back. Eveyone then stood up.
It happened some thirty years ago but I can still see the expressions on the Admiral's faces as they trooped out through the door I was holding open.
I'll get laughed at for asking, but could Sea King AEW carry AMRAAM?
In the mid seventies when Dunsfold and Kingston were trying hard to help the RN get what was to become the SHAR the RN used Dunsfold as a venue for a major brief of the Minister of Defence of the day. I sat in the back in case they needed a company pilot input. The various staffers did a really excellent job at explaining the Bear D mid-course guidance threat at 35000ft and that the only thing that could shoot them down in mid Atlantic was a Sidewinder equipped SHAR operating from a Through Deck Cruiser.
As befits such an occasion there were several four stars in the front row looking after the Minister and when the officer at the lectern asked if the Minister had any questions they all looked perfectly happy because the RN had clearly put forward an unanswerable case.
The first question the Minister asked was, “Why not put the Sidewinders on your Sea Kings?”
There followed a very lengthy and very palpable silence broken eventually by the staffer asking his boss if he would like to take that question. Boss declined but he did undertake to study the Minister's suggestion and report back. Eveyone then stood up.
It happened some thirty years ago but I can still see the expressions on the Admiral's faces as they trooped out through the door I was holding open.
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Smoketoomuch,
The U.S. Navy did actually experiment with Sparrow/Sidewinder equipped H-2 Seasprites during the 1970s as a missile-defense combination.
Dust off the Wasps, pilfer a couple of Sea Darts from a Type 42, and let's go have some fun...
I/C
The U.S. Navy did actually experiment with Sparrow/Sidewinder equipped H-2 Seasprites during the 1970s as a missile-defense combination.
Dust off the Wasps, pilfer a couple of Sea Darts from a Type 42, and let's go have some fun...
I/C