Where have all the Migs gone?
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Where have all the Migs gone?
The Iraqi air force seem to have disappeared from the planet. Any thoughts on what they are up to? I assume a number have already been taken out in their HAS's.
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Iran still has many of them
Iraq's neighbors to the East did not return the Migs that "defected" in 1991. I do not even think the French would be stupid enough to sell them some Mirages since 1991.
Iraqi Migs
I read a thread on another board which stated the USAF detected 2 Mig 25's over Baghdad on day 2.
They stooged around for a bit and pushed off in a Northerly direction.
Since then the only Iraqi aircraft spotted flying were in the form of shrapnel from direct LGB hits!
They stooged around for a bit and pushed off in a Northerly direction.
Since then the only Iraqi aircraft spotted flying were in the form of shrapnel from direct LGB hits!
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The Iraqi air force has made it abundantly clear that it does not want to play. Their actions are sensible and sound and will reduce the loss of life on both sides.
There really is very, very little left.
Large numbers of aircraft fled to Iran in '91 and remained there.
Large numbers were destroyed in '91.
Russian advisers were withdrawn.
Since then, very little support has been forthcoming from either original suppliers or third parties. Aircraft away being overhauled in countries from Belarus to Yugoslavia were not returned.
Some of the smaller former Soviet states may have provided some limited support, and it's possible that Colonel G in Libya, North Korea and perhaps China may have been 'helpful'.
But the Iraqi air force had been reduced to a tiny shadow of its former glory before this lot kicked off.
Large numbers of aircraft fled to Iran in '91 and remained there.
Large numbers were destroyed in '91.
Russian advisers were withdrawn.
Since then, very little support has been forthcoming from either original suppliers or third parties. Aircraft away being overhauled in countries from Belarus to Yugoslavia were not returned.
Some of the smaller former Soviet states may have provided some limited support, and it's possible that Colonel G in Libya, North Korea and perhaps China may have been 'helpful'.
But the Iraqi air force had been reduced to a tiny shadow of its former glory before this lot kicked off.
I can just see the news.....US bombs Mig 23.....hundreds killed. More bodies unearthed by rescue efforts......dozens unearthed by the hour and more found as search efforts continue.
And the Media will report it as gospel!
Good place for an Iraqi aircraft.....in a graveyard.....just where the entire air force is headed. Anyone remember the boneyard at the north east corner of Mogadishu, Somalia courtesy of Catepillar?
And the Media will report it as gospel!
Good place for an Iraqi aircraft.....in a graveyard.....just where the entire air force is headed. Anyone remember the boneyard at the north east corner of Mogadishu, Somalia courtesy of Catepillar?
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You could be right WEBF, but I don't think it would involve Fast Jets.
They could be used on suicide missions (using them at all would be a suicide mission), but regular Iraqi Air Force pilots are unlikey to be the suicidal type.
Not just any old Joe Schmoe can hop into the cockpit of a jet fighter and fly it blazing into a US aircraft carrier or downtown Kuwait City.
Teaching someone to steer an already-flying airliner into a building is one thing; a crash course in How To Turn Your MiG Into A Kamikaze Weapon is quite another, particularly when your student material is a fundamentalist psychopath of dubious intellect, and the sky between him and his target is heavily populated with the best the West can put in his way.
I feel a more likely threat could come from either remotely piloted or suicidally piloted light aircraft, flying low and slow with a minimal radar signature, carrying anything from a bit of HE to a bit of anthrax.
It's a long shot, but it could be possible.
They could be used on suicide missions (using them at all would be a suicide mission), but regular Iraqi Air Force pilots are unlikey to be the suicidal type.
Not just any old Joe Schmoe can hop into the cockpit of a jet fighter and fly it blazing into a US aircraft carrier or downtown Kuwait City.
Teaching someone to steer an already-flying airliner into a building is one thing; a crash course in How To Turn Your MiG Into A Kamikaze Weapon is quite another, particularly when your student material is a fundamentalist psychopath of dubious intellect, and the sky between him and his target is heavily populated with the best the West can put in his way.
I feel a more likely threat could come from either remotely piloted or suicidally piloted light aircraft, flying low and slow with a minimal radar signature, carrying anything from a bit of HE to a bit of anthrax.
It's a long shot, but it could be possible.
S76 Heavy....best read up on your radar technology issues....the large rotating bit on the front of the AN-2 works very well as a radar reflector. When we have to go to great efforts to design a stealthy pitot tube.....that huge propellor is just a dead give away. They might just get away with it however.....as long as they do not paint RAF roundrels on it.
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SASless, you're probably right.
I read it somewhere in a book about a previous war and found the concept interesting.
So it will probably not be the AN2 under present circumstances, do any other aircraft they might get their hands on stand a chance?
Suicide hangglider pilots, perhaps?
I read it somewhere in a book about a previous war and found the concept interesting. So it will probably not be the AN2 under present circumstances, do any other aircraft they might get their hands on stand a chance?
Suicide hangglider pilots, perhaps?
S76...I would imagine anything that is fast...low...and suicidal could make a success out of it. I might even suggest....a very low...slow moving helicopter...pose as a truck....or boat until close to the border then bolt towards the target.....but still a one way trip. The Japanese in WWII and suicide bombers since then have proven the validity of the concept. Forces the opponent to use lots of resources to protect itself while very limited assets are required to make the attack.
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Not quite on topic, but the fact that allied vehicle recognition signs are constantly visible does give the Iraqi commander with a tv a good clue on how to disguise his vehicles in the hope of confusing allied airpower just long enough to reach his destination, suicidal or not.
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S76, that tactic doesn't always work for allied vehicles as we've seen already.
As for the missing Migs. coincidentally they have just released some video footage showing hits on jets conveniently parked on taxiways being destroyed. I believe I managed to identify a Mig 17, possibly a Mig 15, an old Su 7 and Hawker Hunters yes that's right. obviously decoys. They just destroyed the basis of a post war Iraqi Air Force museum.
Just who is fooling who? I find it hard to believe there is no one on the RAF staff there who can't identify a Hunter when he sees one. Then they release this video and hope no one notices.
So far no sign of any of their real operational aircraft.
STOP PRESS
Just as I posted this I flick on the BBC and there is Paul Beaver confirming pretty much what I just observed followed by an interview with an RAF officer who wouldn't be drawn into admitting that the aircraft were merely decoys.
As for the missing Migs. coincidentally they have just released some video footage showing hits on jets conveniently parked on taxiways being destroyed. I believe I managed to identify a Mig 17, possibly a Mig 15, an old Su 7 and Hawker Hunters yes that's right. obviously decoys. They just destroyed the basis of a post war Iraqi Air Force museum.
Just who is fooling who? I find it hard to believe there is no one on the RAF staff there who can't identify a Hunter when he sees one. Then they release this video and hope no one notices.
So far no sign of any of their real operational aircraft.
STOP PRESS
Just as I posted this I flick on the BBC and there is Paul Beaver confirming pretty much what I just observed followed by an interview with an RAF officer who wouldn't be drawn into admitting that the aircraft were merely decoys.
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My real concern are the L-29's, the Drones of Death. These seem to have 'disappeared' from the Iraqi Air Force inventory over the last couple of years. I know that most have probably been grounded due to spares shortages, but enough of these converted and fairly robust airframes could have survived to cause havoc with chemical or BW spray tanks.
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Just as long as they don't shoot up any of the Sea Furies the Iraqis still have.....
That Mig in a graveyard, I seem to remember, from some considerable time ago, an aviation magazine mentioning that the Iraqis had placed an aircraft as a "Gate Guard" at a cemetery where pilots who'd died during the Iran-Iraq war, and training accidents were buried.
I am concerned about the drones of death too. Except, how are they going to control these Drones o ' death, if all the transmitters are smoking holes in the ground?
That Mig in a graveyard, I seem to remember, from some considerable time ago, an aviation magazine mentioning that the Iraqis had placed an aircraft as a "Gate Guard" at a cemetery where pilots who'd died during the Iran-Iraq war, and training accidents were buried.
I am concerned about the drones of death too. Except, how are they going to control these Drones o ' death, if all the transmitters are smoking holes in the ground?
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The transmitters don't have to be in a fixed position. Something highly mobile like a BMP, or a civvie-looking truck driving around in urban Bagdad would be pretty hard to locate and destroy before a first strike was completed.
