Assymetric Canberra's
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Asymmetric Canberra's
With a view to Righting an Injuctice.....Again
Is there anyone out there who can shed some light on the significance of the torque tube in the flight control lines between the rudder pedals and the rudder on a Canberra aircraft.
I have heard that if this torque tube fails during 'practice' asymmetric flying, the fin falls off with the subsequent total loss of the aircraft and in some cases, the crew as well!
I've been fortune enough to 'acquire' the tail fin from my crashed Canberra and there are no burn marks on it, despite the remainder of the tail plane section being in the, shall we say, main conflagration....interesting or what! Cheers aye, Phortz
Is there anyone out there who can shed some light on the significance of the torque tube in the flight control lines between the rudder pedals and the rudder on a Canberra aircraft.
I have heard that if this torque tube fails during 'practice' asymmetric flying, the fin falls off with the subsequent total loss of the aircraft and in some cases, the crew as well!
I've been fortune enough to 'acquire' the tail fin from my crashed Canberra and there are no burn marks on it, despite the remainder of the tail plane section being in the, shall we say, main conflagration....interesting or what! Cheers aye, Phortz
Last edited by Phortz; 31st Jan 2003 at 18:14.
Don't know about the technicalities of this one, Phortz, but I do know that there were more crews killed doing 'practice' assymetric on Canberras than were ever killed by the real thing!!
My old boss on Whirlwinds was an ex-Canberra man and he reckoned that bad weather night rescues in the W/W was infinitely preferable to 'practice' assymetric on the E E beast.
My old boss on Whirlwinds was an ex-Canberra man and he reckoned that bad weather night rescues in the W/W was infinitely preferable to 'practice' assymetric on the E E beast.
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Cornish Jack
I cannot see what the fuss is about. I was on Type Sqn at CFS in 1957 and taught asymmetric on the Canberra and the Meatbox. Which was the harder work? No contest! I've still got "Meatbox thighs!". Incidentally I used to insist that the stus knew how to spell it before they tried it (dig, dig)
I cannot see what the fuss is about. I was on Type Sqn at CFS in 1957 and taught asymmetric on the Canberra and the Meatbox. Which was the harder work? No contest! I've still got "Meatbox thighs!". Incidentally I used to insist that the stus knew how to spell it before they tried it (dig, dig)
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Phortz, you mention 'righting an injustice' and 'my crashed Canberra'. To give meaningful comment on the link between the torque tube failure and the fin falling off, more detail of the incident is necessary - otherwise you may well get some right royal rubbish and false info. I have read Pprune topics for some time now, and have seen many comment that seemed to be authoritative but were complete nonsense.
If you are going down a similar route to the Chinook campaign you will need expert comment.
I'm not an engineer and neither would I label myself an expert, but I know the system you are referring to. If you do not wish to reveal details of your crash in open forum, feel free to send me a private message
If you are going down a similar route to the Chinook campaign you will need expert comment.
I'm not an engineer and neither would I label myself an expert, but I know the system you are referring to. If you do not wish to reveal details of your crash in open forum, feel free to send me a private message
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I smell very bad fish here.
Anyone who flew Canberras knows how the torque tubes related to control surface movement.
Any Canberra crash relating to asymmetric problems usually takes the crew with it.
Most Canberra crews had how to spell asymmetric drummed into them.
So a posting about acquiring the tail of 'my crashed Canberra' and not understanding the flight controls needs a lot more explanation before anyone should think about a full reply.
Anyone who flew Canberras knows how the torque tubes related to control surface movement.
Any Canberra crash relating to asymmetric problems usually takes the crew with it.
Most Canberra crews had how to spell asymmetric drummed into them.
So a posting about acquiring the tail of 'my crashed Canberra' and not understanding the flight controls needs a lot more explanation before anyone should think about a full reply.
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I'm suspicious too, Stan Evil.
I don't know Dick Squat about the Canberra, the torque tube or asymmetric flying (the only planes I fly are little ones with a single go-roundy thing at the front), but I do know that you don't use an apostrophe to show a plural.
Canberra's? Canberra's what? Canberra's torque tube maybe?
I don't know Dick Squat about the Canberra, the torque tube or asymmetric flying (the only planes I fly are little ones with a single go-roundy thing at the front), but I do know that you don't use an apostrophe to show a plural.
Canberra's? Canberra's what? Canberra's torque tube maybe?
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Also, Cranberries had wooden "fins" and I don't think that they would just "fall off" because of an unfortunate asymmetric. It could be the rudder itself that Phortz means though, but as Jacko says, we'd need to know more detail about the "incident" - aircraft number, date, etc.
However. a Canberra's rudder DID "fall off" once. WJ680 (7Sqd) had an unfortunate experience during an air-test. One of the pintle bolts gave way causing the rudder to slump and jam, the nav ejected and the kite was landed on wheels with a susequent belly flop. The crew were OK and WJ680 went on to become what is now the only flying Canberra in Australia at Temora.
However. a Canberra's rudder DID "fall off" once. WJ680 (7Sqd) had an unfortunate experience during an air-test. One of the pintle bolts gave way causing the rudder to slump and jam, the nav ejected and the kite was landed on wheels with a susequent belly flop. The crew were OK and WJ680 went on to become what is now the only flying Canberra in Australia at Temora.
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Beeayeate, to be strictly accurate the Canberra did NOT have a wooden fin. The structure was normal metals; however, the main face panel left and right of the fin WAS made of plywood.
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Hmm, funny.
I have recently been working on a fin section that had been removed from a well known privately operated Can and I have to say it was all wood apart from a few external fittings which were metal.
As it happens the nav that was mentioned in beeayeate's post has also worked on it!
I have recently been working on a fin section that had been removed from a well known privately operated Can and I have to say it was all wood apart from a few external fittings which were metal.
As it happens the nav that was mentioned in beeayeate's post has also worked on it!
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FJJP - You're right of course, I was being simplistic. Did have a wooden leading edge to the thing as well though, always having to re-cover the thing with fabric and, usually, red dope (they use gaffer tape these days I think - back then we tried the ubiquitous "black tape" but it didn't stay stuck for some reason). Also, the fin had wooden ribs, there was a couple of anntenas up inside the thing that wouldn't have worked otherwise.
Point is, if the rudder torque tube had given way during a "real" take-off asymmetric, it would have not have been the highest problem on your list as Canberras pretty much flipped over very, very quickly with, usually, dire consequences.
JD
That would be 163 would it? How's it all going? We going to see it this year?
Point is, if the rudder torque tube had given way during a "real" take-off asymmetric, it would have not have been the highest problem on your list as Canberras pretty much flipped over very, very quickly with, usually, dire consequences.
JD
That would be 163 would it? How's it all going? We going to see it this year?
Beeayeate:
I was at St Mawgan and witnessed the WJ680 incident. As I recall, the nav landed near St Columb Minor and used his key to a local AA box to summon assistance!
http://www.pbase.com/image/11970054
I was at St Mawgan and witnessed the WJ680 incident. As I recall, the nav landed near St Columb Minor and used his key to a local AA box to summon assistance!
http://www.pbase.com/image/11970054
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'That' Canberra is now painted in 2 Sqn RAAF colours of the Vietnam era, and is included in the Air Show at Avalon, Victoria, 13th-15th February. The Meteor 8 is also flying; same show.
If I ever find out how to put an actual photo on to this site I'll show you, 'cos I'll be there!
If I ever find out how to put an actual photo on to this site I'll show you, 'cos I'll be there!
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To answer the first question befote all the rumours/myths/conjecture get out of hand:
If the torque tube fails you lose control of the rudder. The fin won't fail because you can't generate any sideways force on it (because you've lost control of the rudder). However, as the torque tube has probably failed because of the huge bootfull of rudder being applied in the event of an engine failure just after take off you will lose control of the aircraft - unless you bring the other throttle back really sharpish. Either way you're not going very far.
Hope this helps.
If the torque tube fails you lose control of the rudder. The fin won't fail because you can't generate any sideways force on it (because you've lost control of the rudder). However, as the torque tube has probably failed because of the huge bootfull of rudder being applied in the event of an engine failure just after take off you will lose control of the aircraft - unless you bring the other throttle back really sharpish. Either way you're not going very far.
Hope this helps.
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I concede that my knowledge of the fin structure is not correct, in that I was unaware the the internal structure is also wood. I agree with Reichman.
Also, I have been in private contact with Phortz and am satisfied with his authenticity. We exchanged views. Therefore I do not have any concerns about him.
Also, I have been in private contact with Phortz and am satisfied with his authenticity. We exchanged views. Therefore I do not have any concerns about him.
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I concede that my knowledge of the fin structure is not correct, in that I was unaware the the internal structure is also wood. I agree with Reichman.
When you contacted Phortz, did you find out the aircraft number? And it is intriguing that he said ". . .right an injustice." Did you get anything on that aspect?
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Beeayeate, yes to both, but I feel that it is for Phortz to give out any information that could pinpoint him (like dates, ac numbers, location, etc); also the reason for the comment regarding injustice.
Just a numbered other
Well said Flatus
Can't believe a real crab officer of that vintage would misuse the apostrophe either.
Apostrophe Protection Society
Can't believe a real crab officer of that vintage would misuse the apostrophe either.
Apostrophe Protection Society