Hunter Conversion Training...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hunter Conversion Training...
Sorry if this is not the appropriate forum to post this message, however this is probably the only way I will gain access to the expertise to answer my question.
I hold a Transport Canada Private Licence and a UK PPL(A) and have approximately 210 hours TT, mostly C172 in the US/Canada but in the UK I have flown around in the Beagle Pup (a very nice little beast). I also hold a Canadian Full IR.
I wish to purchase a share in an T8C Hunter that has been offered to me quite cheaply, and thus will wish to undergo some sort of jet conversion. I have been stated it will take around 15 training sorties with a QFI before I'm let lose solo.
All this is going to be quite expensive for me. I'm not poor or I wouldn't be doing this, but it is a significant investment for me all the same.
Is it really that easy to do? I'm feeling a drain of confidence already and I haven't even been up in the thing.
How many people just simply fail to transition to Jets because they aren't good enough? How good do you have to be?
Cheers
Emmett
I hold a Transport Canada Private Licence and a UK PPL(A) and have approximately 210 hours TT, mostly C172 in the US/Canada but in the UK I have flown around in the Beagle Pup (a very nice little beast). I also hold a Canadian Full IR.
I wish to purchase a share in an T8C Hunter that has been offered to me quite cheaply, and thus will wish to undergo some sort of jet conversion. I have been stated it will take around 15 training sorties with a QFI before I'm let lose solo.
All this is going to be quite expensive for me. I'm not poor or I wouldn't be doing this, but it is a significant investment for me all the same.
Is it really that easy to do? I'm feeling a drain of confidence already and I haven't even been up in the thing.
How many people just simply fail to transition to Jets because they aren't good enough? How good do you have to be?
Cheers
Emmett
Your limited experience will make the transition to fast jet flying an uphill struggle unless you are a 'natural' pilot. When I started flying the Hunter I had the benefit of a 150 hr RAF wings course in a Jet Provost under my belt. It took about 10 hours to go solo and considerably more before I was competant in all aspects of handling the aircraft.
You're going to have to spend a lot of money and do a fair amount of studying if you don't want to kill yourself!
You're going to have to spend a lot of money and do a fair amount of studying if you don't want to kill yourself!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Not a huge sand box but very nice winters anymore
Age: 57
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have to go with Spec on this one. You are trying to make quite a jump in performance in a very short period of time.
It can be done but the attitude that you carry towards your training could make alot of difference. The Hunter I have heard is an airplane that can bite you if you are not careful.
Some other training that I might suggest is an aerobatic course. This would supplement your Hunter conversion and expose you to some more high performance flying.
It can be done but the attitude that you carry towards your training could make alot of difference. The Hunter I have heard is an airplane that can bite you if you are not careful.
Some other training that I might suggest is an aerobatic course. This would supplement your Hunter conversion and expose you to some more high performance flying.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is not possible to give a simple comment about your fears because so much depends on the ability of the person concerned (you in this case)
Some Hunter points for you to consider. The Hunter is an early jet designed when less was known about swept wing handling and therefore not so easy to handle at low speed as say a Hawk today. This means it will not look after you so well should you boob and get too slow (for whatever reason). I don’t know which engine yours has but they were all pretty thirsty jobs and so once you get to a low fuel state (say a quarter of internals left) there is considerable pressure on you to land on a runway that is at least 2000 yards long pretty soon. Hydraulic system emergencies while not difficult to study and understand can lead to a marked degradation in the lateral handling which you will not enjoy even with considerable practice. You may find speed control on final a bit more trying (sluggish) than you are used to because of the response of the engine. This is a major issue because too fast and you will be off the end very easily, while too slow we have discussed already.
Then there are general fast jet issues to think about. Navigation and instrument flying become much harder not because you are in a jet as such but because you have to keep up with this fast aeroplane. If it had a prop and went to 600kts it would be just the same. There is a real mental gear change that you will have to make.
On the plus side the navigational aspects of allowing for wind will be easier to cope with just because the aeroplane is going so fast. Indeed if you fly an accurate cruise heading and speed (easy to do) of say 6 miles per minute, after 20 mins you will be pretty close to 120 miles further on in the direction you planned on most days. But if you don’t plan and just fly around for a few minutes without being sure where you were pointed during that time you can equally get lost very quickly.
Bottom line, you will have to do what you do now to fly but many times faster. Whether you can make that mental adjustment only you can guess. Try and get some low level fast aircraft time in to judge how you can cope.
Good luck whatever you decide!
Some Hunter points for you to consider. The Hunter is an early jet designed when less was known about swept wing handling and therefore not so easy to handle at low speed as say a Hawk today. This means it will not look after you so well should you boob and get too slow (for whatever reason). I don’t know which engine yours has but they were all pretty thirsty jobs and so once you get to a low fuel state (say a quarter of internals left) there is considerable pressure on you to land on a runway that is at least 2000 yards long pretty soon. Hydraulic system emergencies while not difficult to study and understand can lead to a marked degradation in the lateral handling which you will not enjoy even with considerable practice. You may find speed control on final a bit more trying (sluggish) than you are used to because of the response of the engine. This is a major issue because too fast and you will be off the end very easily, while too slow we have discussed already.
Then there are general fast jet issues to think about. Navigation and instrument flying become much harder not because you are in a jet as such but because you have to keep up with this fast aeroplane. If it had a prop and went to 600kts it would be just the same. There is a real mental gear change that you will have to make.
On the plus side the navigational aspects of allowing for wind will be easier to cope with just because the aeroplane is going so fast. Indeed if you fly an accurate cruise heading and speed (easy to do) of say 6 miles per minute, after 20 mins you will be pretty close to 120 miles further on in the direction you planned on most days. But if you don’t plan and just fly around for a few minutes without being sure where you were pointed during that time you can equally get lost very quickly.
Bottom line, you will have to do what you do now to fly but many times faster. Whether you can make that mental adjustment only you can guess. Try and get some low level fast aircraft time in to judge how you can cope.
Good luck whatever you decide!
John’s an expert and he’s given you an excellent answer. I guess like most aircraft you could actually learn how to fly it relatively quickly – but to learn to operate it well or approaching its capability would be long and expensive. And of course its got its vices. I would think you’d not want to fly on anything but a nice day and then never far from a large airfield.
There are Hunters around being flown by pilots too young to have trained on them but who are very experienced on other mil jets – and they treat them with respect. Most though, I would think, are flown by pilots who have had considerable service training on them in the past. My dad flew on a Hunter sqn, they gots lots of hours and he lost a number of mates.
You might also want to ask current operators about it, there was a similar case not too long ago where a bloke got trained then went off cross country and ended up in a very deep hole in the ground. That said, I would have thought you’d be able to find competent people to fly with you at your expense – assuming that this shared aircraft is well maintained.
There are Hunters around being flown by pilots too young to have trained on them but who are very experienced on other mil jets – and they treat them with respect. Most though, I would think, are flown by pilots who have had considerable service training on them in the past. My dad flew on a Hunter sqn, they gots lots of hours and he lost a number of mates.
You might also want to ask current operators about it, there was a similar case not too long ago where a bloke got trained then went off cross country and ended up in a very deep hole in the ground. That said, I would have thought you’d be able to find competent people to fly with you at your expense – assuming that this shared aircraft is well maintained.
I have in the past been involved in converting pilots with no jet time to the Hunter (albeit with high performance piston experience), and I concur with all that has been said above. I would say that 15 hours to solo would be very optimistic. Learning the mechanics of flying the aircraft when fully serviceable may not prove too much of a problem if you have reasonably good stick and rudder skills. However, learning the airmanship aspects of operating a high speed, swept wing aircraft would take time and practise; there are no short cuts to this.
Another aspect to consider is that when faced with many major malfunctions, your first option should be to eject. Trying to dead-stick a Hunter is easily possible if a 6000+ ft long runway is close at hand. But recognising when you are not going to make it and ejecting requires a mindset which your current experience has not yet given you. One fairly recent fatal Hunter accident springs to mind.
It is also an aircraft that requires to be flown at altitudes much higher than you are used to and, inevitably, this will require flight in IMC. The instrument panel in the T8c is not much more advanced than that in a Spitfire! I have converted many experienced and able military fast-jet pilots to the Hunter. Many of those with experience only of modern aircraft found instrument flying in the Hunter very difficult! Sadly, another fatal accident in a civilian Hunter comes to mind.
Finally, even once you had gone solo, you would need careful, sympathetic supervision until you had built up a fair few hours on it. I do not wish to be a pessimist, but there are no short cuts; you need to build up some experience on a slower, straight-winged jet first (Jet Provost, L39, Macchi 326 etc). However, do try to get a trip in one - you will be hooked, and this will undoubtably give you the motivation to build up to the Hunter in stages. Good luck.
Another aspect to consider is that when faced with many major malfunctions, your first option should be to eject. Trying to dead-stick a Hunter is easily possible if a 6000+ ft long runway is close at hand. But recognising when you are not going to make it and ejecting requires a mindset which your current experience has not yet given you. One fairly recent fatal Hunter accident springs to mind.
It is also an aircraft that requires to be flown at altitudes much higher than you are used to and, inevitably, this will require flight in IMC. The instrument panel in the T8c is not much more advanced than that in a Spitfire! I have converted many experienced and able military fast-jet pilots to the Hunter. Many of those with experience only of modern aircraft found instrument flying in the Hunter very difficult! Sadly, another fatal accident in a civilian Hunter comes to mind.
Finally, even once you had gone solo, you would need careful, sympathetic supervision until you had built up a fair few hours on it. I do not wish to be a pessimist, but there are no short cuts; you need to build up some experience on a slower, straight-winged jet first (Jet Provost, L39, Macchi 326 etc). However, do try to get a trip in one - you will be hooked, and this will undoubtably give you the motivation to build up to the Hunter in stages. Good luck.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys
Thanks for the responses, each and every one of you has imparted crucial information that has really helped me understand some aspects of flying that I would never have considered otherwise.
I was particularly interested to hear that the JP & L-39 for example would be easier to fly than the Hunter, OK, the JP perhaps, but the L-39 seems Hawk like, and I just assumed that this was really out of my league, never even considered that it would be easier!
My intention now is to try out a introduction on the a/c and also consider the JP...
thanks a lot guys!
Thanks for the responses, each and every one of you has imparted crucial information that has really helped me understand some aspects of flying that I would never have considered otherwise.
I was particularly interested to hear that the JP & L-39 for example would be easier to fly than the Hunter, OK, the JP perhaps, but the L-39 seems Hawk like, and I just assumed that this was really out of my league, never even considered that it would be easier!
My intention now is to try out a introduction on the a/c and also consider the JP...
thanks a lot guys!
I'd have thought that finding a properly qualified 'safety pilot' ought to be fairly easy, so that your first 100 hours on type might be a safe way of gathering experience in a fairly incremental fashion.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
little hunter story..
Quote from "Never in Anger" by Anthony 'Bugs' Bendell...
"It was a fresh, blustery April day with glorious sunshine - the sort of day when flying was especially enjoyable. The Hunter had sufficient power and agility to barge through low-level turbulence and play tag with the fluffy white cumulus clouds. The only reason for caution - and even then the risk was thought to be slight - was the cross-wind in the circuit which was tending to tighten up the final turn. Such conditions were part and parcel of normal flying and were not dangerous, provided proper allowance was made on the downwind leg to correct for drift and the bulk of the final turn was completed early. Usually the worst that could happen was for the aircraft to drift through the runway centre line before the final turn was complete - which was embarrassing for the pilot, but no harm done provided he took immediate action to go around for another circuit. Unfortunately, one lad on our course misjudged the cross-wind and attempted to salvage his approach by tightening the final turn. It was poor airmanship by any standards. He might have got away with it in a Vampire, but the Hunter flick-rolled at 500 ft and crashed inverted in the Taw estuary. The pilot had no chance to eject, and was killed on impact. A timely reminder that one never stops learning about flying."
"It was a fresh, blustery April day with glorious sunshine - the sort of day when flying was especially enjoyable. The Hunter had sufficient power and agility to barge through low-level turbulence and play tag with the fluffy white cumulus clouds. The only reason for caution - and even then the risk was thought to be slight - was the cross-wind in the circuit which was tending to tighten up the final turn. Such conditions were part and parcel of normal flying and were not dangerous, provided proper allowance was made on the downwind leg to correct for drift and the bulk of the final turn was completed early. Usually the worst that could happen was for the aircraft to drift through the runway centre line before the final turn was complete - which was embarrassing for the pilot, but no harm done provided he took immediate action to go around for another circuit. Unfortunately, one lad on our course misjudged the cross-wind and attempted to salvage his approach by tightening the final turn. It was poor airmanship by any standards. He might have got away with it in a Vampire, but the Hunter flick-rolled at 500 ft and crashed inverted in the Taw estuary. The pilot had no chance to eject, and was killed on impact. A timely reminder that one never stops learning about flying."
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: kemble
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hunter stuff
If you are serious about converting to the hunter then get in touch with me at [email protected] and we will speak further.
Before you start, have you considered learning to fly it before buying the share?
I have taught about 6 ab initio students to fly the hunter and the convertion time is as long as a piece of string. The shortest time to solo was 8 hours, the longest 50! -it all depends on ability and continuity.
Look forward to hearing from you
AC
Before you start, have you considered learning to fly it before buying the share?
I have taught about 6 ab initio students to fly the hunter and the convertion time is as long as a piece of string. The shortest time to solo was 8 hours, the longest 50! -it all depends on ability and continuity.
Look forward to hearing from you
AC
tt.
All thoroughly sound advice from John F. and Lomcevac who, without doubt, know the Hunter well.
I found that the early JP, Vampire, Hunter route was just the right pace for me before graduating to something with even more sting.
Andy Cubin's advice to have a quick intro. first, to see how it feels, is probably the best suggestion before you blow all that money.
Not only is the Avon thirsty, but, perfect lady though she is, she also has a nasty bite.
Seem to remember, having hit the "panic buttons" following an engine failure, that "manual" could be a bit of a handful. Also a "high key" of 7000 feet gave you at least a chance of handing back a repairable aeroplane to Aunty Betty.
Yes, sound advice from three of the best in the business.
Good luck anyway - you'll love it.
Sleeve.
All thoroughly sound advice from John F. and Lomcevac who, without doubt, know the Hunter well.
I found that the early JP, Vampire, Hunter route was just the right pace for me before graduating to something with even more sting.
Andy Cubin's advice to have a quick intro. first, to see how it feels, is probably the best suggestion before you blow all that money.
Not only is the Avon thirsty, but, perfect lady though she is, she also has a nasty bite.
Seem to remember, having hit the "panic buttons" following an engine failure, that "manual" could be a bit of a handful. Also a "high key" of 7000 feet gave you at least a chance of handing back a repairable aeroplane to Aunty Betty.
Yes, sound advice from three of the best in the business.
Good luck anyway - you'll love it.
Sleeve.
