F-35 Down in Albuquerque
The wx at KABQ at the time of the crash appx 1352pm was T*85 F/29*C,ALTIM.PRESS 24.74",Wind 5mph..
To me that looks like a `pressure altitude of 8430ft.,and a density altitude of (temp correction) 11500 ft......Others may disagree with the calcs,but in hindsight,a14000 FT runway`may` just have been a `better` option.....
To me that looks like a `pressure altitude of 8430ft.,and a density altitude of (temp correction) 11500 ft......Others may disagree with the calcs,but in hindsight,a14000 FT runway`may` just have been a `better` option.....
Hustler 91 is audible in the ground frequency recording and is heard refusing the unrestricted climb for a short takeoff demo. File - KABQ1-Del-Gnd-May-28-2024-1930Z.mp3
Taxi clearance was from B5 (military ramp) for RW21 full length. Starts at 8:15 play time.
"I told some of the guys down here I'd do a short takeoff"
Taxi clearance was from B5 (military ramp) for RW21 full length. Starts at 8:15 play time.
"I told some of the guys down here I'd do a short takeoff"
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EXDAC,You are more correct,PA is about 5300,and DA about 8300`.
Been there a few times,parked on the `Hot Spot`,for a couple of days,then early morning decisions,
East or West departure in a `heavily` loaded C130..usually W,even with a `light` tailwind...
Been there a few times,parked on the `Hot Spot`,for a couple of days,then early morning decisions,
East or West departure in a `heavily` loaded C130..usually W,even with a `light` tailwind...
JPG of the F-35 Cockpit which I assume is more or less how it is laid out these days? Hook/STOVL conversion UPPER LEFT as annotated.
BELOW: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/image...28237_9967.JPG
BELOW: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/image...28237_9967.JPG
The F-35 and its HMD is a heck of a move forward in SA for the driver. Flying apparently still needs some awareness of speeds etc such as the bingle at Eglin, FL highlighted.
Hustler 91 is audible in the ground frequency recording and is heard refusing the unrestricted climb for a short takeoff demo. File - KABQ1-Del-Gnd-May-28-2024-1930Z.mp3
Taxi clearance was from B5 (military ramp) for RW21 full length. Starts at 8:15 play time.
"I told some of the guys down here I'd do a short takeoff"
Taxi clearance was from B5 (military ramp) for RW21 full length. Starts at 8:15 play time.
"I told some of the guys down here I'd do a short takeoff"
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Shotgun instrument placing was a jolt when facing the two variations of dual Vampires in the RAN FAA at Nowra. When two AHs fitted they were directly in front of 'hand on the stick in the left seat'. When on instruments that pilot would lean left usually to see the AH. (Leaing right meant you were snuggling up to the right seat occupant). 
An F-35 test pilot complained about the lack of an indication in the vHUD when the aircraft was NOT in some kind of computer controlled engine approach. When in MANUAL fuel there is no light dot in the vHUD. So the F-35C pilot approaching at 'idle' power after a Sh!tHot Break did not register that the aircraft engine was NOT being controlled for 'on speed'. Too late the LSO realised a wave off was required with full A/B but... The accident report mentions that such a 'manual power' indication should be placed in the vHUD. <sigh>
The night approach crash at Eglin AFB had the pilot having the aircraft on speed hold at some 250KIAS IIRC. Pilot did not look at the speed during the approach so speared in on the nosewheel and then the aircraft went nuts so he ejected. Two pilots not aware of what the aircraft was doing during a landing approach. Perhaps there is some kind of computer/pilot glitch in this latest accident but I do not know.
An F-35 test pilot complained about the lack of an indication in the vHUD when the aircraft was NOT in some kind of computer controlled engine approach. When in MANUAL fuel there is no light dot in the vHUD. So the F-35C pilot approaching at 'idle' power after a Sh!tHot Break did not register that the aircraft engine was NOT being controlled for 'on speed'. Too late the LSO realised a wave off was required with full A/B but... The accident report mentions that such a 'manual power' indication should be placed in the vHUD. <sigh>
The night approach crash at Eglin AFB had the pilot having the aircraft on speed hold at some 250KIAS IIRC. Pilot did not look at the speed during the approach so speared in on the nosewheel and then the aircraft went nuts so he ejected. Two pilots not aware of what the aircraft was doing during a landing approach. Perhaps there is some kind of computer/pilot glitch in this latest accident but I do not know.
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This JPG has bin burnin' a hole in me screen so here 'tis for the STO attitude innit: “Marine Fighter Attack Training Squadron (VMFAT) 501, Marine Aircraft Group (MAG) 31, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing (MAW), takes off during an airshow demonstration practice at Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort, South Carolina, Aug. 21, 2023. US Marine Corps Photo” https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upl...77-scaled.jpeg
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“STOVL only applies below 10 thousand feet and below 250 knots,” Tomlinson notes….”
_________
VX-23 Strike Test News 2014 [02 Sep]
"...STO testing included crosswind expansion out to 20 knots, completed primarily at Edwards Air Force Base [2,300 feet] and NAWS China Lake [2,300 feet] during a wet runway and crosswind detachment...."
_________
VX-23 2015 STRIKE TEST NEWS Maj M. Andrew “Tac” Tacquard
F-35 Short Takeoff & Vertical Landing (STOVL) Mode http://issuu.com/nawcad_pao/docs/striketest2015_single
“...Flying qualities during asymmetric testing were nearly identical to symmetric testing from the pilot’s perspective. The team performed Rolling Vertical Landings (RVL), Creeping Vertical Landings (CVL), Vertical Landings (VL), Slow Landings (SL), and Short Take Offs (STO) tests with nominal winds at Patuxent River. They continued landing and takeoff testing during a detachment to Edwards AFB, Air Force Plant 42 in Palmdale, California, and at NAWS China Lake. Testers focused on expanding the crosswind envelope with crosswinds of up to 25 knots. We also performed the 1st high altitude CVL & VL during the detachment...."
_________
VX-23 Strike Test News 2014 [02 Sep]
"...STO testing included crosswind expansion out to 20 knots, completed primarily at Edwards Air Force Base [2,300 feet] and NAWS China Lake [2,300 feet] during a wet runway and crosswind detachment...."
_________
VX-23 2015 STRIKE TEST NEWS Maj M. Andrew “Tac” Tacquard
F-35 Short Takeoff & Vertical Landing (STOVL) Mode http://issuu.com/nawcad_pao/docs/striketest2015_single
“...Flying qualities during asymmetric testing were nearly identical to symmetric testing from the pilot’s perspective. The team performed Rolling Vertical Landings (RVL), Creeping Vertical Landings (CVL), Vertical Landings (VL), Slow Landings (SL), and Short Take Offs (STO) tests with nominal winds at Patuxent River. They continued landing and takeoff testing during a detachment to Edwards AFB, Air Force Plant 42 in Palmdale, California, and at NAWS China Lake. Testers focused on expanding the crosswind envelope with crosswinds of up to 25 knots. We also performed the 1st high altitude CVL & VL during the detachment...."
This video is on one of my SPAZZINbad channels (of two). I make nothing from them however GOOGLE/youtube insert advertisements at their whim over which I have no control because I make no profit from them. Earlier a video about another topic was from another channel entirely. Yes advertisements on YOUboob are wearysome but dems de breaks. IF one does not like the music that can always be MUTED, the original video had no soundtrack whatsoever.
MEANWHILE: F-35B ITF VL & STO Crosswind & USMC Expeditionary Field Tests [at 2,300 feet altitude at above locations]
What was the basis for “STOVL only applies below 10 thousand feet and below 250 knots,” Tomlinson notes….”
At what maximum density altitude was it actually demonstrated? I'm interested in the short takeoff to normal flight transition that seems to have gone horribly wrong at ABQ. Demonstrating at 2,300 ft and extrapolating to 10,000 ft seems a bit of a stretch to me. (The 8,300 ft point didn't go well.)
At what maximum density altitude was it actually demonstrated? I'm interested in the short takeoff to normal flight transition that seems to have gone horribly wrong at ABQ. Demonstrating at 2,300 ft and extrapolating to 10,000 ft seems a bit of a stretch to me. (The 8,300 ft point didn't go well.)
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What was the basis for “STOVL only applies below 10 thousand feet and below 250 knots,” Tomlinson notes….”
At what maximum density altitude was it actually demonstrated? I'm interested in the short takeoff to normal flight transition that seems to have gone horribly wrong at ABQ. Demonstrating at 2,300 ft and extrapolating to 10,000 ft seems a bit of a stretch to me. (The 8,300 ft point didn't go well.)
At what maximum density altitude was it actually demonstrated? I'm interested in the short takeoff to normal flight transition that seems to have gone horribly wrong at ABQ. Demonstrating at 2,300 ft and extrapolating to 10,000 ft seems a bit of a stretch to me. (The 8,300 ft point didn't go well.)
Ride the Lightning: Testing the Marine Corps’ latest fighter 27 Mar 2009 Dave Majumdar
“…Other than the reduced G-limit, in conventional flight the F-35B handles almost exactly like the F-35A, Tomlinson explained [Lead Test Pilot for the F-35B. Tomlinson, a former Royal Air Force (RAF) Harrier pilot and a graduate of the prestigious Empire Test Pilot School, has over thirty years of flight test experience with STOVL aircraft. (now retired)]. The F-35B retains the same outstanding low-speed, high angle of attack handling qualities as well as the same incredible acceleration as the F-35A. “You struggle to tell the difference between the CTOL and the STOVL in the cockpit,” Tomlinson said, adding that test pilots are trained to notice even minute differences in aircraft handling qualities. Tomlinson noted that while the F-35B’s lift-fan causes a visible bump in the aircraft’s outer mold line, the only cue in the cockpit is a slightly different wind noise. “STOVL only applies below 10 thousand feet and below 250 knots,” Tomlinson notes….”
Probably the entire article is in my humungous archive if required.
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Lockheed Martin rebuts F-35 critics on cost, progress by Chris Pocock July 15, 2010
http://www.ainonline.com/taxonomy/te...1?q=node/25359 [URL no longer works]
“...When asked how the F-35B compared to the Harrier in terms of ease of takeoff/landing, Tomlinson replied: “It’s chalk and cheese–and so it should be! This is a single-button operation with no special controls–much easier than the Harrier. For short takeoffs you just power up; the system takes care of everything else. On the ski-jump, for instance, the system detects the change in deck angle & doesn’t apply any rotation as it would on a flat deck.”...”
&
Test Flying The Joint Strike Fighter by Graham Tomlinson 17 Jun 2011
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkerass...kefighter.html [URLnowerkeenow]
"...The Short take-off (STO) mode was checked at altitude followed by 100kn STO and then 80 kn STO, circuit and VL from 150 ft on 18 March 2010. Post touchdown the procedure was all automatic. There were no problems in STO...."
&
1,000 and Counting – The F-35B’s Journey to the 1000th Vertical Landing NAS Patuxent River, July 25, 2016
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/...rtical-landing [guesswot? URL not werk]
"...On January 7, 2010, BAE Systems test pilot Graham “GT” Tomlinson, the lead STOVL pilot at the time, engaged the aircraft’s STOVL propulsion system in flight for the first time. During this flight, Tomlinson, a former Harrier pilot in the Royal Air Force, climbed to 5,000 feet and engaged the propulsion system – lift system engaged, lift fan spinning, propulsion effectors active – at 210 knots, then slowed to 180 knots with the system engaged before converting back to conventional flight mode...."
http://www.ainonline.com/taxonomy/te...1?q=node/25359 [URL no longer works]
“...When asked how the F-35B compared to the Harrier in terms of ease of takeoff/landing, Tomlinson replied: “It’s chalk and cheese–and so it should be! This is a single-button operation with no special controls–much easier than the Harrier. For short takeoffs you just power up; the system takes care of everything else. On the ski-jump, for instance, the system detects the change in deck angle & doesn’t apply any rotation as it would on a flat deck.”...”
&
Test Flying The Joint Strike Fighter by Graham Tomlinson 17 Jun 2011
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkerass...kefighter.html [URLnowerkeenow]
"...The Short take-off (STO) mode was checked at altitude followed by 100kn STO and then 80 kn STO, circuit and VL from 150 ft on 18 March 2010. Post touchdown the procedure was all automatic. There were no problems in STO...."
&
1,000 and Counting – The F-35B’s Journey to the 1000th Vertical Landing NAS Patuxent River, July 25, 2016
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/...rtical-landing [guesswot? URL not werk]
"...On January 7, 2010, BAE Systems test pilot Graham “GT” Tomlinson, the lead STOVL pilot at the time, engaged the aircraft’s STOVL propulsion system in flight for the first time. During this flight, Tomlinson, a former Harrier pilot in the Royal Air Force, climbed to 5,000 feet and engaged the propulsion system – lift system engaged, lift fan spinning, propulsion effectors active – at 210 knots, then slowed to 180 knots with the system engaged before converting back to conventional flight mode...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 13th Jun 2024 at 05:52. Reason: +txt
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Video of the attitude just before the bondhu bashing portion of the sortie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RaN3KYOgIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RaN3KYOgIY
F-35B STO Crash Ejection OK New Mexico 28 May 2024
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 13th Jun 2024 at 08:30. Reason: +grfx
Salute!
Gotta join others' opinions here about the density alt plus a plane problem involving the motor.
Those who have not flown up there at 5k or 6k or higher, or at 40C deg with 90% humidity understand. I never appreciated doing the takeoff calcs until it hapened to me. BFD. So after a scary takeoff at Colorado Springs I had religion. Rolled about 10,000ft, on an 11,000 ft rwy in my heavy Sluf, but was smooth enuf to gradually gain speed, and having terrain sloping down made me feel better.
I have seen videos of the Bee on short takeoffs but here at Eglin have only seen conventional launches and a rare "roll on" in the Bees.
Hate to lose one of those jets, but this one seems a system problem and the experienced pilot got out.
I checked out the Tacos when they converted to A-7D's, and those fellows appreciate DA. Also checked out the Colorado guard unit and they fully honored takeoff calculations.
Gums opines...
Gotta join others' opinions here about the density alt plus a plane problem involving the motor.
Those who have not flown up there at 5k or 6k or higher, or at 40C deg with 90% humidity understand. I never appreciated doing the takeoff calcs until it hapened to me. BFD. So after a scary takeoff at Colorado Springs I had religion. Rolled about 10,000ft, on an 11,000 ft rwy in my heavy Sluf, but was smooth enuf to gradually gain speed, and having terrain sloping down made me feel better.
I have seen videos of the Bee on short takeoffs but here at Eglin have only seen conventional launches and a rare "roll on" in the Bees.
Hate to lose one of those jets, but this one seems a system problem and the experienced pilot got out.
I checked out the Tacos when they converted to A-7D's, and those fellows appreciate DA. Also checked out the Colorado guard unit and they fully honored takeoff calculations.
Gums opines...
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Salute!
Gotta join others' opinions here about the density alt plus a plane problem involving the motor.
Those who have not flown up there at 5k or 6k or higher, or at 40C deg with 90% humidity understand. I never appreciated doing the takeoff calcs until it hapened to me. BFD. So after a scary takeoff at Colorado Springs I had religion. Rolled about 10,000ft, on an 11,000 ft rwy in my heavy Sluf, but was smooth enuf to gradually gain speed, and having terrain sloping down made me feel better.
I have seen videos of the Bee on short takeoffs but here at Eglin have only seen conventional launches and a rare "roll on" in the Bees.
Hate to lose one of those jets, but this one seems a system problem and the experienced pilot got out.
I checked out the Tacos when they converted to A-7D's, and those fellows appreciate DA. Also checked out the Colorado guard unit and they fully honored takeoff calculations.
Gums opines...
Gotta join others' opinions here about the density alt plus a plane problem involving the motor.
Those who have not flown up there at 5k or 6k or higher, or at 40C deg with 90% humidity understand. I never appreciated doing the takeoff calcs until it hapened to me. BFD. So after a scary takeoff at Colorado Springs I had religion. Rolled about 10,000ft, on an 11,000 ft rwy in my heavy Sluf, but was smooth enuf to gradually gain speed, and having terrain sloping down made me feel better.
I have seen videos of the Bee on short takeoffs but here at Eglin have only seen conventional launches and a rare "roll on" in the Bees.
Hate to lose one of those jets, but this one seems a system problem and the experienced pilot got out.
I checked out the Tacos when they converted to A-7D's, and those fellows appreciate DA. Also checked out the Colorado guard unit and they fully honored takeoff calculations.
Gums opines...
Salute!
The very shallow climb angle is not what I have seen here at Eglin when the bee was doing go arounds from a brief touch or even after a hover, and had all the doors open.
So a contributing factor could have been engine related. The visible profile looks exactly like our F-16 crashes due to the FBW maintaining wings level and increasing AoA or on the AoA limiter. So I would not bet on the FBW system being a major factor.
Gums opines...
What makes you think it was a system problem?
So a contributing factor could have been engine related. The visible profile looks exactly like our F-16 crashes due to the FBW maintaining wings level and increasing AoA or on the AoA limiter. So I would not bet on the FBW system being a major factor.
Gums opines...
Last edited by gums; 14th Jun 2024 at 14:26.
Salute!
The very shallow climb angle is not what I have seen here at Eglin when the bee was doing go arounds from a brief touch or even after a hover, and had all the doors open.
So a contributing factor could have been engine related. The visible profile looks exactly like our F-16 crashes due to the FBW maintaining wings level and increasing AoA or on the AoA limiter. So I would not bet on the FBW system being a major factor.
Gums opines...
The very shallow climb angle is not what I have seen here at Eglin when the bee was doing go arounds from a brief touch or even after a hover, and had all the doors open.
So a contributing factor could have been engine related. The visible profile looks exactly like our F-16 crashes due to the FBW maintaining wings level and increasing AoA or on the AoA limiter. So I would not bet on the FBW system being a major factor.
Gums opines...
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And, some propulsion systems have temperature-limiting systems that will reduce thrust upon reaching prescribed limits (eg Pegasus). Thus, an engine, functionally performing as designed, can limit one’s ability to fly out of this kind of corner in the envelope. Do we know this happened? No. Is it in the realm of possibility? Perhaps.
Test Flying The Joint Strike Fighter 17 Jun 2011 Graham Tomlinson [URL works no longer]
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkerass...kefighter.html
”The STOVL mode control system is derived from ‘Unified’ developed by the ‘RAE’ on the VAAC Harrier. The throttle commands acceleration and deceleration (or thrust on the ground and in the STO mode, and in all conventional modes); in the hover the stick moved backwards / forwards commands upwards / downwards vertical velocity (or pitch rate elsewhere); in the hover the stick moved from side to side commands bank angle (or roll rate elsewhere) and if released returns the aircraft to wings level; in the hover the pedals command yaw rate (or sideslip elsewhere).
Future development will clear full envelope autopilot/auto throttle, automatic deceleration to a spot, and TRC (translational rate command) which in the hover allows the pilot to make small positional corrections easily, and will then bring the aircraft to a standstill if the pilot releases the controls.…
...In the Harrier the pilot must obey the rules. The F-35B flyby-wire system gives angle-of-attack and sideslip control, and departure protection. Further pilot workload reduction is given by performance deficit protection, conversion speed window protection and FOD protection warning; and flight test has a watching brief on the requirement for possible tail strike protection during slow landings (currently not considered necessary [2011]). Pilot cognitive errors (of trying to control thrust with the throttle) have been mitigated in the design.…”
THOUGHT it might be useful to show the full monte from no longer HTML url above.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 15th Jun 2024 at 01:23. Reason: add grfx
And, some propulsion systems have temperature-limiting systems that will reduce thrust upon reaching prescribed limits (eg Pegasus). Thus, an engine, functionally performing as designed, can limit one’s ability to fly out of this kind of corner in the envelope. Do we know this happened? No. Is it in the realm of possibility? Perhaps.
Second, if EGT exceeds redline, the pilot(s) are immediately alerted (at least if they are pay attention) and can take corrective action if circumstances allow. If circumstances don't allow (e.g. close to the ground during takeoff with a single engine aircraft), it's cheaper to replace an engine after an EGT exceedance than to replace the aircraft (and perhaps the pilot) after it crashed when power was cutback due to EGT.
I'd be very, very surprised if Pratt and Lock-Mart have forgotten that lesson...
