Cessna 152 gets in the way!
Thread Starter
Cessna 152 gets in the way!
Picture this!
Weymouth carnival, lovely day, lovely sea, lovely ice creams, lovely ladies , Harrier GR7 in the distance on its run in to display for the suntanned masses. In it comes, loads of knots - wwwhhhaaattt
a Cessna 150 steadily flying over the display area in the bay at 250 ft !! same height as the harrier now rapidly approaching the rear of the Cessna!!! Harrier guy flew straight past very-very close! Harrier guy does a 360 and flies straight past them again !! Should have shot the Cessna down for being such dimwits.
Weymouth is covered by Plymouth Mil, so I dont know what went on there ?
Harrier completed the display and zoomed off, probably to look for the witdims!!
Weymouth carnival, lovely day, lovely sea, lovely ice creams, lovely ladies , Harrier GR7 in the distance on its run in to display for the suntanned masses. In it comes, loads of knots - wwwhhhaaattt
a Cessna 150 steadily flying over the display area in the bay at 250 ft !! same height as the harrier now rapidly approaching the rear of the Cessna!!! Harrier guy flew straight past very-very close! Harrier guy does a 360 and flies straight past them again !! Should have shot the Cessna down for being such dimwits. Weymouth is covered by Plymouth Mil, so I dont know what went on there ?
Harrier completed the display and zoomed off, probably to look for the witdims!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: North Weald, UK
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picture this (2)
North Weald Air Show 199?.
BBMF are strutting their stuff - the Hurricane is on display and flying up RWY 20. Suddenly it peels up and starts to orbit to the North because...there is a German registered Robin/spam-can/thingie on finals for RWY02.
The D-XXXX eventually decides that further progress is Not A Good Move and sort of breaks right back towards the Fatherland and the show continues.
I couldn't help but feel that is was 'right place, but 50 years too late.'
North Weald Air Show 199?.
BBMF are strutting their stuff - the Hurricane is on display and flying up RWY 20. Suddenly it peels up and starts to orbit to the North because...there is a German registered Robin/spam-can/thingie on finals for RWY02.
The D-XXXX eventually decides that further progress is Not A Good Move and sort of breaks right back towards the Fatherland and the show continues.
I couldn't help but feel that is was 'right place, but 50 years too late.'
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An airfield in the South East last year. A BBMF Spitfire has been booked to give a flypast.
The time approaches, so flying club decamps onto grass outside clubhouse to watch the fun.
The Mk XIX Spitfire is turning base and a club Cessna 152 starts dragging itself along the grass runway and takes off.
Spitfire hurtles down runway at low level, underneath the 152, does a steep climbing turn crosswind, then comes back for second pass.
Don't know if they'd be willing to do another this year though!
RD
The time approaches, so flying club decamps onto grass outside clubhouse to watch the fun.
The Mk XIX Spitfire is turning base and a club Cessna 152 starts dragging itself along the grass runway and takes off.
Spitfire hurtles down runway at low level, underneath the 152, does a steep climbing turn crosswind, then comes back for second pass.
Don't know if they'd be willing to do another this year though!
RD
Civvies don't read NOTAMs, so dimwit would not have known LArs was unavailable!
Sweeping statement but I hear it every weekend......for example...any Brize 134.3 controllers around?
Last weekend saw civvies flying through para drop sites, into their zone etc etc.
Same with Farnborough and its TRA for the show, Reds Temp Airspace, Brighton Political Party conferences - the list is endless.
I was using Brize for a listening watch during flying at Charlbury and could not believe the ignorance of some people.
Many 'pro' civvy pilots out there but unfortunately there seem to be more dunces!!!
No excuse for not reading the notams considering the abundance of software that will print it all out on a pretty map for you.
Sweeping statement but I hear it every weekend......for example...any Brize 134.3 controllers around?
Last weekend saw civvies flying through para drop sites, into their zone etc etc.
Same with Farnborough and its TRA for the show, Reds Temp Airspace, Brighton Political Party conferences - the list is endless.
I was using Brize for a listening watch during flying at Charlbury and could not believe the ignorance of some people.
Many 'pro' civvy pilots out there but unfortunately there seem to be more dunces!!!
No excuse for not reading the notams considering the abundance of software that will print it all out on a pretty map for you.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Bath
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree that not enough people read NOTAMS, but as of yesterday (or perhaps today) the pretty map stuff doesn't work anymore. AIS have changed their site.
It's back to reading the text for now
Ian
It's back to reading the text for now
Ian
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EESDL
Whilst the point you make is valid, there are quite a few Airprox reports over the years where mil crews seem to have infringed notified CANPs and the like and come close to civil traffic going about their business. Are we to assume all mil pilots don't read CANPs ??
Your generalisation is far too broad.
Whilst the point you make is valid, there are quite a few Airprox reports over the years where mil crews seem to have infringed notified CANPs and the like and come close to civil traffic going about their business. Are we to assume all mil pilots don't read CANPs ??
Your generalisation is far too broad.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I only have one thing to say,
Ian S, was it extreme coincidence or are you a NOTAM spotter, I'm actually quite worried at the thought you could recall everyone for recent history.....
ps if that is the case maybe you could fly with me and then I could say "I never bong anything..."
Ian S, was it extreme coincidence or are you a NOTAM spotter, I'm actually quite worried at the thought you could recall everyone for recent history.....
ps if that is the case maybe you could fly with me and then I could say "I never bong anything..."
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Northants, UK
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've listened in to several highly amusing conversations over the years where pilots have been utterly unaware of NOTAMed airspace.
Old Warden - a C150 asking to land, only to be told 'Er, I'd rather you didn't. There's a Harrier about to depart' - this on a well publicised display day.
Or Flying Legends at Duxford, shortly before the big formation at the end, some bloke asking to fly through overhead. '30 assorted warbirds in the overhead, advise staying clear' - delivered in the dryest and most sarcastic tone of voice I've ever heard.
Some bloke in a microlight near Fairford this year also wanted to fly through during the practice displays, briefly argued the toss when told he couldn't too. Beggars belief really.
Old Warden - a C150 asking to land, only to be told 'Er, I'd rather you didn't. There's a Harrier about to depart' - this on a well publicised display day.
Or Flying Legends at Duxford, shortly before the big formation at the end, some bloke asking to fly through overhead. '30 assorted warbirds in the overhead, advise staying clear' - delivered in the dryest and most sarcastic tone of voice I've ever heard.
Some bloke in a microlight near Fairford this year also wanted to fly through during the practice displays, briefly argued the toss when told he couldn't too. Beggars belief really.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Bath
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Talk Reaction
Just coincidence. I'd read the thread and was then trying to figure out the new AIS site. I might be many things, but I'm not a NOTAM spotter, or any other kind for that matter :-)
Ian
Just coincidence. I'd read the thread and was then trying to figure out the new AIS site. I might be many things, but I'm not a NOTAM spotter, or any other kind for that matter :-)
Ian
Told you that it was a sweeping statement.....in the mil guys defence....there is an ever increasing amount of bumf to read before every sortie, it beggars belief, hardly surprising that some get overlooked in these days of over-stretch. Please don't compare that to some dim-wit getting into the air without a cursory glance over one document.
Anybody care to list the documents that have to be read then perhaps our non-mil guys will get an idea of the workload involved!
Ian, can't believe what NATS have done with the NOTAM system.....please tell me someone will get promoted for this latest crass 'improvement' !!
Anybody care to list the documents that have to be read then perhaps our non-mil guys will get an idea of the workload involved!
Ian, can't believe what NATS have done with the NOTAM system.....please tell me someone will get promoted for this latest crass 'improvement' !!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A disused airfield in East Anglia, NOTAMED for weekend parachuting activity, two student canopies in the air, and two C130's come blasting right through the overhead, very scary indeed. Enquiries via CAA revealed RAF 'unaware' of airfield activity, were using as turning point for navigational excercises!
It's not always the weekend warrior in his spamcan that f***s up.
Thank you for your attention.
It's not always the weekend warrior in his spamcan that f***s up.
Thank you for your attention.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's obviously so much to read that you don't have time to plan a sortie that doesn't take you within a gnats's todger of my ATZ of through the Instrument Approach, which (due to the complete lack of airspace policy in the UK) happens to be in the FIR!!
Couldn't agree more, let's regulate the whole of our airspace then there would not be any infringements...'cos we'd be already in it!! Works for London.
Seen it myself in Flt Planning......clerk misplots/omits point entirely, captain gets it in the neck!!! RAF still work the policy that everyone apart the captain cannot be held responsible if it all goes pear-shaped.........so, if the capt has to double-check everything anyway, why bother with the clerks?
Certain tasks are delegated but not sufficiently monitored.......point being: The mil pilot has to check countless docs, the civ pilot very few (I know 'cos I am one).
Hells bells, I fly with pilots who don't even know the RF 'phone number!! Scary world out there, so like I said before, let's regulate all of the airspace
Seen it myself in Flt Planning......clerk misplots/omits point entirely, captain gets it in the neck!!! RAF still work the policy that everyone apart the captain cannot be held responsible if it all goes pear-shaped.........so, if the capt has to double-check everything anyway, why bother with the clerks?
Certain tasks are delegated but not sufficiently monitored.......point being: The mil pilot has to check countless docs, the civ pilot very few (I know 'cos I am one).
Hells bells, I fly with pilots who don't even know the RF 'phone number!! Scary world out there, so like I said before, let's regulate all of the airspace
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I accept that a disappointingly large number of PPL's fail to brief themselves adequately. There's no excuse. Being an ATCO at a very busy, predominantley GA airfield, I'm often on the wrong end of converstions with people who shouldn't be let out with a shopping trolley, let alone half a ton of flying metal.
My point, however, is that military sorties are often flown extremely close my ATZ and regularly through the Instrument Approach procedures. IMHO, this is equally silly. The ATZ dimensions offer no effective protection to my traffic. Flying a 3° glidepath on the instrument approach will put you below 1000' over a mile from the ATZ boundary and the circuit often extends beyond 2 miles when we're integrating Learjets with Cessna 150's. Wouldn't it be mutually beneficial if the military gave busy civil fields in the FIR a wider berth? Maybe MATZ dimensions?
My point, however, is that military sorties are often flown extremely close my ATZ and regularly through the Instrument Approach procedures. IMHO, this is equally silly. The ATZ dimensions offer no effective protection to my traffic. Flying a 3° glidepath on the instrument approach will put you below 1000' over a mile from the ATZ boundary and the circuit often extends beyond 2 miles when we're integrating Learjets with Cessna 150's. Wouldn't it be mutually beneficial if the military gave busy civil fields in the FIR a wider berth? Maybe MATZ dimensions?
Thread Starter
Divergent,
The Cessna was ( I can only assume ) following the coast line around Weymouth Bay from the Bournemouth direction towards Exeter? From a previous post, Plymouth Mil are non operational so the "dimwit Cessna" should have been in contact last with Bournemouth ATC .
The reds would of loved this chap come chuffing on by the way he did!! And im not sure but the reds may of taken off from Hurn anyway.
The 152 was following the beach line no more than 300 ft out. Weymouth beach holds 150 thousand plus people on carnival day,and thats not counting the thousands in the shark free shallow waters!
One baffleing thing though, there was a specialy cordoned off part of the water for the hover part of the harrier routine, only for the harrier to spot hover in between the gin palaces and canoes etc. made for funny watching as dinner accesories and table cloths were scattered to the exhaust forces.!!
The Cessna was ( I can only assume ) following the coast line around Weymouth Bay from the Bournemouth direction towards Exeter? From a previous post, Plymouth Mil are non operational so the "dimwit Cessna" should have been in contact last with Bournemouth ATC .
The reds would of loved this chap come chuffing on by the way he did!! And im not sure but the reds may of taken off from Hurn anyway.
The 152 was following the beach line no more than 300 ft out. Weymouth beach holds 150 thousand plus people on carnival day,and thats not counting the thousands in the shark free shallow waters!
One baffleing thing though, there was a specialy cordoned off part of the water for the hover part of the harrier routine, only for the harrier to spot hover in between the gin palaces and canoes etc. made for funny watching as dinner accesories and table cloths were scattered to the exhaust forces.!!
Or perhaps MPS, you should lobby the CAA for an extension of your ATZ to cover the procedure. Flying a published instrument procedure in class G airspace without any protection is unique to the UK (I think). Any pilot flying VFR in good VMC could reasonably be forgiven for thinking that as the weather is good, he may not be required to give the ILS 'feathers' sticking out of an ATZ a wide berth.
Before I receive the inevitable lambasting for this statement, I would like to point out that this seems to be the attitude from the CAA - due to the acceptance of this situation. And I have seen this from both sides of the coin.
Before I receive the inevitable lambasting for this statement, I would like to point out that this seems to be the attitude from the CAA - due to the acceptance of this situation. And I have seen this from both sides of the coin.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cessna 152
Why do we not all accept that there are complete idiots in the air in both military and civilian aircraft? The military are no better or worse at observing the rules than are the civvies. I will not attempt to list such occurrences but they are VERY VERY numerous. What is particularly galling , however, is the fact that so very often the mil boys(and girls?) are not prosecuted because it is impossible to identify them. If you want an example a harrier at<500 ft throught the overhead of an ATZ and when reported the military unit asked for the registration "Without which we cannot identify the pilot" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try reading that from a 400+ knot aircraft. So if any of you want to identify and stop the idiots in all branches of flying advice would be welcomed.
