Is Ukraine about to have a war?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,452
Received 3,192 Likes
on
1,339 Posts
The video is brutal and it is obvious that confusion is the main reason for these men's deaths.
Perhaps the Russian was wearing Ukrainian insignia or they had approached from a different direction, (as the troops were facing a completely different direction).
After telling them to give up their weapons it would appear that in the confusion one does not relinquish his weapon.
I can understand why the soldier killed them as horrible as it is.
The fact that this video has been released is a big big mistake (perhaps the soldier had been killed and the Ukrainians found the footage), however it will serve to galvanise the Ukrainian resistance and will likely lead to fewer Russians being taken alive.
There is one man to blame for these deaths.
Perhaps the Russian was wearing Ukrainian insignia or they had approached from a different direction, (as the troops were facing a completely different direction).
After telling them to give up their weapons it would appear that in the confusion one does not relinquish his weapon.
I can understand why the soldier killed them as horrible as it is.
The fact that this video has been released is a big big mistake (perhaps the soldier had been killed and the Ukrainians found the footage), however it will serve to galvanise the Ukrainian resistance and will likely lead to fewer Russians being taken alive.
There is one man to blame for these deaths.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,452
Received 3,192 Likes
on
1,339 Posts
I do wonder about the logic of sending Challengers, fine tanks as they are, they are however fussy re ammo types due to the rifled barrels, it would make more sense to purchase secondhand Leopards from Germany and send those instead, it would give the Ukrainians maximum commonality, streamline the training and also cut down unnecessary problems of maintaining two types and the supply chain of spares.
I do wonder how well both of tanks will cope with this new environment of drone dropped munitions and kamikaze drones… I do hope they prove their worth and live up to the hype. We haven’t really seen much in the way of tank on tank engagements.
I do wonder how well both of tanks will cope with this new environment of drone dropped munitions and kamikaze drones… I do hope they prove their worth and live up to the hype. We haven’t really seen much in the way of tank on tank engagements.
In The Guardian:-
Russia-Ukraine war live: Putin replaces general in charge of Russian forces in Ukraine
Snippet:-
Russia-Ukraine war live: Putin replaces general in charge of Russian forces in Ukraine
Snippet:-
Russia’s chief of the general staff, Valery Gerasimov, was appointed as the new commander of the combined forces group for Moscow’s “special military operation” in Ukraine by defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, Reuters reports.
Gerasimov will be replacing Sergei Surovikin, a notorious general who opened fire on pro-democracy protesters in the 1990s. He was appointed Russia’s first overall commander for the war in Ukraine on the same day Vladimir Putin was dealt a humiliating blow after an explosion on the Kerch bridge sank a section of the motorway into the Kerch Strait and caused a major fire on the railway.
Gerasimov will be replacing Sergei Surovikin, a notorious general who opened fire on pro-democracy protesters in the 1990s. He was appointed Russia’s first overall commander for the war in Ukraine on the same day Vladimir Putin was dealt a humiliating blow after an explosion on the Kerch bridge sank a section of the motorway into the Kerch Strait and caused a major fire on the railway.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,452
Received 3,192 Likes
on
1,339 Posts
The video is brutal and it is obvious that confusion is the main reason for these men's deaths.
Perhaps the Russian was wearing Ukrainian insignia or they had approached from a different direction, (as the troops were facing a completely different direction).
After telling them to give up their weapons it would appear that in the confusion one does not relinquish his weapon.
I can understand why the soldier killed them as horrible as it is.
The fact that this video has been released is a big big mistake (perhaps the soldier had been killed and the Ukrainians found the footage), however it will serve to galvanise the Ukrainian resistance and will likely lead to fewer Russians being taken alive.
There is one man to blame for these deaths.
Perhaps the Russian was wearing Ukrainian insignia or they had approached from a different direction, (as the troops were facing a completely different direction).
After telling them to give up their weapons it would appear that in the confusion one does not relinquish his weapon.
I can understand why the soldier killed them as horrible as it is.
The fact that this video has been released is a big big mistake (perhaps the soldier had been killed and the Ukrainians found the footage), however it will serve to galvanise the Ukrainian resistance and will likely lead to fewer Russians being taken alive.
There is one man to blame for these deaths.
One thing I notice Ukraine goes out of their way to hide the victims faces to save families seeing it, Russia it appears doesn’t.
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Jan 2023 at 17:50.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Age: 63
Posts: 1,269
Received 241 Likes
on
137 Posts
I do wonder about the logic of sending Challengers, fine tanks as they are, they are however fussy re ammo types due to the rifled barrels, it would make more sense to purchase secondhand Leopards from Germany and send those instead, it would give the Ukrainians maximum commonality, streamline the training and also cut down unnecessary problems of maintaining two types and the supply chain of spares.
I do wonder how well both of tanks will cope with this new environment of drone dropped munitions and kamikaze drones… I do hope they prove their worth and live up to the hype. We haven’t really seen much in the way of tank on tank engagements.
I do wonder how well both of tanks will cope with this new environment of drone dropped munitions and kamikaze drones… I do hope they prove their worth and live up to the hype. We haven’t really seen much in the way of tank on tank engagements.
I have the same doubts. I served on Chieftain and Lep 2 (early version in my youth) and think you would get an easier support apparatus by not throwing a small chunk of British Heavy Armour into this fight as it will be difficult to support logistics wise. I would also say the same about the French Heavy Armour, as there are a lot more Lep 1&2 around than either French or UK MBT. Also maintenance on the German kit I have to say was much easier back then, not sure if that is still the same. Armour is a lot more complex than artillery if you disregard rockets and rockets ie HIMARS.
Cheers
Mr Mac
The following users liked this post:
Guest
Interesting, relevant or just meh?
Sudden Surge In Russian Navy Ships And Submarines In Black Sea - Naval News
Sudden Surge In Russian Navy Ships And Submarines In Black Sea - Naval News
Is there any incidence, to date, of Russia using captured top-down munitions, such as Javelin etc., against Ukrainian armour? If so, how long until the newly donated Western tanks meet these in theatre? I'd suspect they would be a priority for Russian propaganda purposes.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I do wonder about the logic of sending Challengers,
The word was that they wouldn’t be the first to send heavy armour and would wait till there was a general move. Last we we had Finland & Sweden say they’d send tanks, now we have Poland the UK.
Hopefully now real numbers from others will start flowing.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...s-ukraine-war/
Last edited by ORAC; 11th Jan 2023 at 22:46.
Administrator
The thread has not yet become too unwieldy, but it is getting large.
We had an F-35 thread that lasted around 10 years. It got a lot of traffic.
It was called F-35 Cancelled, Then What? which title did not stop the discussion as the program kept on going.
We eventually started the Mark II thread.
If we do need to start a sequel to this thread, we will most likely give it a more up to date title.
We will make sure to provide links back and forth, etc, so that you'll know where to land if this topic is your destination.
Carry on
T28B
---------------
Back on topic:
Originally Posted by ORAC
Last we we had Finland & Sweden say they’d send tanks, now we have Poland the UK. Hopefully now real numbers from others will start flowing.
To put it mildly, the logisticians in Ukraine would have their job get much more difficult than it already is.
I suppose the Challys could be parked evenly spaced along the Belorussian Border with Ukraine.
That would probably be enough of a deterrent to them deciding to open a new front.
I agree with Mr Mac's comments about the ease of maintenance of the Leopard and its excellent power pack.
Tanky mates talked about the rifled gun and said how great it is.
I believe it is time to stop sending the Ukes piecemeal equipment and drop them a couple of hundred Bradleys and as many Leopards as we can fit on trains to the Polish Border.
The Russians are still on the back foot and we need to give the power to the Ukrainians feet to stamp squarely on the Russian throat.
That would probably be enough of a deterrent to them deciding to open a new front.
I agree with Mr Mac's comments about the ease of maintenance of the Leopard and its excellent power pack.
Tanky mates talked about the rifled gun and said how great it is.
I believe it is time to stop sending the Ukes piecemeal equipment and drop them a couple of hundred Bradleys and as many Leopards as we can fit on trains to the Polish Border.
The Russians are still on the back foot and we need to give the power to the Ukrainians feet to stamp squarely on the Russian throat.
A fair question. The outdated title has not harmed the utility of this thread, so we'll leave it up.
The thread has not yet become too unwieldy, but it is getting large.
We had an F-35 thread that lasted around 10 years. It got a lot of traffic.
It was called F-35 Cancelled, Then What? which title did not stop the discussion as the program kept on going.
We eventually started the Mark II thread.
If we do need to start a sequel to this thread, we will most likely give it a more up to date title.
We will make sure to provide links back and forth, etc, so that you'll know where to land if this topic is your destination.
Carry on
T28B
---------------
Back on topic:
How much of this do you think is a case of political signaling, given the practical difficulties in supporting a wide variety of MBTs, each deployed in small numbers?
To put it mildly, the logisticians in Ukraine would have their job get much more difficult than it already is.
The thread has not yet become too unwieldy, but it is getting large.
We had an F-35 thread that lasted around 10 years. It got a lot of traffic.
It was called F-35 Cancelled, Then What? which title did not stop the discussion as the program kept on going.
We eventually started the Mark II thread.
If we do need to start a sequel to this thread, we will most likely give it a more up to date title.
We will make sure to provide links back and forth, etc, so that you'll know where to land if this topic is your destination.
Carry on
T28B
---------------
Back on topic:
How much of this do you think is a case of political signaling, given the practical difficulties in supporting a wide variety of MBTs, each deployed in small numbers?
To put it mildly, the logisticians in Ukraine would have their job get much more difficult than it already is.
When I was hosted by a famous tank regiment in my BFG Met days, the received wisdom was " we are confident we can take 10 of them with one of us [Chieftains?]. Trouble is there are 12 of them". As a civvy, I just accepted the grim fact, Fulda gap and all that.
Will attrtition trump logistics?
I recall watching a program where a Squadron commander (Abrams as I recall) crested a ridge in Iraq to find a Regiment of Iraqi National Guard T72s in their FUP.
They went to work on the Regiment driving down the road between the Iraqi tanks.
In 5 minutes they had destroyed around 40 tanks for no incoming round on target.
I am a little sceptical that the Russian UAVs will have any effect other than cosmetic on the Challengers or Leopards.
My thought is that the offering of Challenger is to lance the German reluctance (Hence only a Squadron being offered).
They went to work on the Regiment driving down the road between the Iraqi tanks.
In 5 minutes they had destroyed around 40 tanks for no incoming round on target.
I am a little sceptical that the Russian UAVs will have any effect other than cosmetic on the Challengers or Leopards.
My thought is that the offering of Challenger is to lance the German reluctance (Hence only a Squadron being offered).
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Germans still reluctant….
https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...s-ukraine-war/
Never mind Britain: Germany looks for US to lead the way on battle tanks to Ukraine
BERLIN/LONDON/WASHINGTON — Britain’s moves toward supplying Ukraine with battle tanks are a headache for Olaf Scholz — but it’s still unlikely that the German chancellor will overcome his reluctance to sending heavy German armor without taking his lead from Washington.
Scholz’s spokesperson said Wednesday that plans by London to deliver British-made Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine won’t change the position of the German government, which has so far rejected growing calls for Berlin to hand powerful German Leopard 2 tanks to Kyiv…..
Nonetheless, the British plans, which are expected to be officially announced at a meeting of Western defense officials at the Ramstein military base in Germany on January 20, will probably ramp up the pressure on Scholz as the U.K. would be the first country to supply Ukraine’s military with modern Western-made battle tanks.
Downing Street said Wednesday that U.K. Defense Secretary Ben Wallace is leading discussions with Western allies on how to send “game-changing” tanks to Ukraine.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brit...s-ukraine-war/
Never mind Britain: Germany looks for US to lead the way on battle tanks to Ukraine
BERLIN/LONDON/WASHINGTON — Britain’s moves toward supplying Ukraine with battle tanks are a headache for Olaf Scholz — but it’s still unlikely that the German chancellor will overcome his reluctance to sending heavy German armor without taking his lead from Washington.
Scholz’s spokesperson said Wednesday that plans by London to deliver British-made Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine won’t change the position of the German government, which has so far rejected growing calls for Berlin to hand powerful German Leopard 2 tanks to Kyiv…..
Nonetheless, the British plans, which are expected to be officially announced at a meeting of Western defense officials at the Ramstein military base in Germany on January 20, will probably ramp up the pressure on Scholz as the U.K. would be the first country to supply Ukraine’s military with modern Western-made battle tanks.
Downing Street said Wednesday that U.K. Defense Secretary Ben Wallace is leading discussions with Western allies on how to send “game-changing” tanks to Ukraine.
Well, it's not an either or thing, it's 'one more damned thing" because if you don't keep them running they can't fight. A classic case was the Panther (Mk V Panzer) that was a fine machine that was an absolute bastard to keep running, and whose gears in the transmission tended to wear out prematurely. Tiger also had some chronic issues that reduced the number that could fight.
A very good question that will only be answered if they get into a fight in this battle/war, yes.
A gnarly old army Col I used to work with was in the Fulda Gap during his initial assignment, M-60's. He told me similar stories.
It's not either or, it's both. As with aircraft (we are all familiar with this) the availability rates (see NH-90, the Tiger) can degrade combat capability by reducing the fighting power of the formation.
This question is prompted by wondering what the expected combat life of an MBT is?
When I was hosted by a famous tank regiment in my BFG Met days, the received wisdom was " we are confident we can take 10 of them with one of us [Chieftains?]. Trouble is there are 12 of them". As a civvy, I just accepted the grim fact, Fulda gap and all that.
Will attrition trump logistics?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,452
Received 3,192 Likes
on
1,339 Posts
IIRC, The likes of the Chieftain etc were built for a different type of warfare from the Russian types, Russian tanks were built “light” low, fast and manoeuvrable for a swift attack in numbers, the Chieftain was designed as a defensive tank, lethal, with an excellent gun, with heavy frontal protection, not as manoeuvrable, but having the ability to defend hull down against the onslaught of the Russian armour.
In The Guardian:-
Russia-Ukraine war live: Putin replaces general in charge of Russian forces in Ukraine
Snippet:-
Russia-Ukraine war live: Putin replaces general in charge of Russian forces in Ukraine
Snippet:-
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,452
Received 3,192 Likes
on
1,339 Posts
Ukraine have captured a T90S, that is the export version that was originally due for delivery to India I believe, another type for assessment 
It looks like it simply shed a track so was hastily abandoned, hopefully a simple fix.
It looks like it simply shed a track so was hastily abandoned, hopefully a simple fix.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,452
Received 3,192 Likes
on
1,339 Posts
Meanwhile Polish Belarusian border, entente cordiale is in full swing..
Eddie Murphy?
Eddie Murphy?
Diesmt sound like more than a few days worth - but presumably it’s the start of a constant stream of deliveries.
Pakistan providing weapons to Ukraine
According to the business edition of India The Economic Times, 159 containers with ammunition for the Ukrainian army will arrive from the Pakistani port city of Karachi to through the port in Gdansk.
The contents include 155-mm artillery shells and charges together with multipurpose fuses.
Pakistan providing weapons to Ukraine
According to the business edition of India The Economic Times, 159 containers with ammunition for the Ukrainian army will arrive from the Pakistani port city of Karachi to through the port in Gdansk.
The contents include 155-mm artillery shells and charges together with multipurpose fuses.
yep... shipping on M.V. Vesuvius ...hope she doesn't live up to her name...
