Rhodesia
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Just for West Coast......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2207060.stm
Wow, I didn't know that
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2207060.stm
Wow, I didn't know that
Got to hit the rack, leave on a four day, but not without comment.
Jacko
My tag line reffered to Ireland in the 1800s. Since removed to remain civil.
I will leave it to you Brits to deciede amongst yourselves if you wish to impose your will on a former colony. The description you provide of Mugabe could describe Saddam on a good day at the zoo on his best manners. Thats all fine, do as you see fit. I hope you have the wherewithal to do do it right and an exit strategy in place, your gonna be there for awhile. I learned my lesson on nation building(and mission creep) in Africa 10 years ago. Much of this thread as applied to the violence and killing could describe Afghanistan in the years leading up to Sept 11. It could also describe Iraq, yet I hear significant disdain for the US and the current and upcoming campaigns in those countries. As it hits closer to home for your lot with your expats in danger, perhaps you will share in our urgency.
Solotk
I don't doubt that there are millions of starving Africans in Zimbabwe. I pulled up the UN WFP site for verification, and as best I can tell the whole continent is starving. Your link lists an additional 6 countries that are stricken, yet I hear no mention of it from you. That Zimbabwe is a former colony has to figured into the equation.
Jacko
My tag line reffered to Ireland in the 1800s. Since removed to remain civil.
I will leave it to you Brits to deciede amongst yourselves if you wish to impose your will on a former colony. The description you provide of Mugabe could describe Saddam on a good day at the zoo on his best manners. Thats all fine, do as you see fit. I hope you have the wherewithal to do do it right and an exit strategy in place, your gonna be there for awhile. I learned my lesson on nation building(and mission creep) in Africa 10 years ago. Much of this thread as applied to the violence and killing could describe Afghanistan in the years leading up to Sept 11. It could also describe Iraq, yet I hear significant disdain for the US and the current and upcoming campaigns in those countries. As it hits closer to home for your lot with your expats in danger, perhaps you will share in our urgency.
Solotk
I don't doubt that there are millions of starving Africans in Zimbabwe. I pulled up the UN WFP site for verification, and as best I can tell the whole continent is starving. Your link lists an additional 6 countries that are stricken, yet I hear no mention of it from you. That Zimbabwe is a former colony has to figured into the equation.
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Not strictly relevant, from last Saturday's Times
Parris was born in Africa
This is why Africa gets the leaders it deserves
Matthew Parris
There was a woman who had whipped her hair into a sea of caramel spikes, which is hard to do with tight black African curls. There was a woman who had achieved a chemical blonde. There was a man in zips and a black leather coat — black on black — a batik skirt and new trainers, top of the range. There were men who had decorated their heads by mowing lines around the cranium, one in a crinkly, multicoloured crêpe-cotton shirt and rainbow plastic winkle-picker shoes, impossibly tight, cap worn backwards. He was trying to get upgraded into business class, inventing ludicrous stories.
The Englishwoman doing the check-in for Air Gabon at Gatwick was having none of it, and stood her ground. She had 36 passengers to check in for the flight from London to Libreville, via Brussels. It took her a little more than three hours.
This was not her fault. Her passengers were waBenzi, the term used across West Africa to describe the successful: the people with money, power or influence; the people who drive Mercedes-Benzes. There being few roads surfaced or properly maintained outside the squalid towns and cities, they do not drive far, but they drive big.
My fellow passengers at Gatwick struck me as worth describing less as an exercise in travel writing (we all have our airport stories) than as an object lesson in the politics of development. For this was the elite, the commercial and administrative class through whom (short of the reimposition of colonial rule) both aid and advice from countries such as ours must be channelled. These were the rich. They must have been. They were able to fly to and from Europe. Some were from Gabon, many from Congo, and all had been shopping.
The word “shopping” hardly does justice to the industrial scale of this little crowd´s acquisitions. I have seldom in one place seen a collection of luggage at the same time so ostentatious, so expensive and so gross. They were leather or fabric-covered suitcases as high as a child, and more cube-shaped than case- shaped.
And everyone kept pushing in. We started in a queue — three whites scattered among the Africans — but by the time the whites got anywhere near the check-in desk we were the last three in the line. The man in skirt and trainers and his enormous wife simply barged. Others sidled. Some struck up loud conversations with those at the front of the queue, then pretended to be positioned there.
A man in dark glasses (indoors, at night) and two noisy female companions held up the whole check-in for about half an hour with an argument about how much excess baggage his party had (a mountain) then, failing to fool the check-in agent, affected to saunter off with his women and talk to someone else — to show he didn´t care — leaving his documents half-processed on the counter. This delayed the agent´s work until she coolly shoved his documents aside and received the next passenger — whereupon Dark Glasses, alarmed, pushed in front of a middle-aged man of scholarly demeanour and his unpushy wife — infuriating the couple to the point of pushing back in again. Meanwhile, Crinkly Shirt, having succeeded in pushing in so brutally that Decorated Head protested, came over all loud-laughs-and-handshakes and “what-a-card-I-am, eh!” — which, such was its swagger and sudden bonhomie, worked. Suddenly, everyone was wreathed in smiles. Another cheater got away with it.
At last they were all ready for passport control. And of course after that they all got lost again in the duty-free shops. The flight was delayed while missing passengers were paged, latecomers sauntering up to the departure gate with yet more purchases in big bags, leading to more arguments about hand luggage and more attempts to cheat. Found out, the capacity of these people to affect innocent shock and apparent ignorance of every rule was astonishing. The airline attempted a staggered boarding procedure but nobody took any notice, stampeding at the gate and on to the plane, whereupon a handful more passengers tried to pretend that they were business class and had to be moved from these seats, each professing the same total surprise at their eviction as they had shown at the news that flying involves weight restrictions.
The Dutch crew handled this with bemusement. Though our airline was called Air Gabon, the plane and its captain and crew seemed to have been hired from a Netherlands charter company. All the stewards looked like Tintin and showed as amused a command of Third World chaos as Herve’s young Belgian journalist.
One sensed among this European crew an unvoiced — professionally unvoiceable — scorn for these passengers. The crew was resigned to such behaviour and they were paid them to handle it. One sense, too, the calm confidence we have when observing the vanity of fools, that they will not have the last laugh.
We took off, landing in Brussels 38 minutes later. Decorated Head complained loudly, to the admiration of his women, that there had been no refreshments: “Ce ne’est pas gentil,” he said to a stewardess. Dark Glasses was prevented from disembarking with the departing passengers to get some beer. On his behalf, Crinkly Shirt began a huge row, storming up and down the aisle, shouting and swearing that Belgium was a racist country and lunging at the stewardess as if to hit her.
At one point he yelled that he would get a gun “and blow this plane up”, and soon had a faction among the passengers muttering and interjecting in his support; but the Tintins were unmoved, everybody calmed down, and we were soon airborne.
Truculence turned back to docility as suddenly as it had flared up, supper was served, Crinkly Shirt banged his tray and demanded more beer, and soon everybody was asleep. When we landed six hours later, all the passengers clapped. We escaped into Libreville, a gentle mess of a place. Anger, jollity, meekness, swagger, obedience, had passed across these waBenzi like sun and rain racing across an island, with such speed: momentarily warm, momentarily cruel, suddenly kind, suddenly innocent, suddenly corrupt ... I tried hard not to quote to myself that famous line of Kipling’s, and I won’t here. These were only the regular waBenzi, perhaps trying too hard. The super-waBenzi would have been flying on Air France, business class, from their boltholes in Paris and Nice. They are less conspicuous. Those are the waBenzi with whom governments deal. These — economy class on Air Gabon with me — were the ones whom businessmen, aid workers, doctors and travel agents must face.
From the picture, the object lesson, I have tried here to paint, I would like to draw your attention to a detail I think important. With the broad view — of the volatile, sometimes brutal and sometimes rapacious people who have an unfortunate habit of getting to the top in Africa — I think we are pretty familiar. With the warmth and talent — the fortitude, the ingenuity and the huge likeability of the little people, the common people, of Africa — nobody who travels there can fail to be familiar. So we tell ourselves that by some tremendous mischance this most worthwhile of human races is persistently badly led.
But is it mischance? I had watched Crinkly Shirt barging the queue with growing fury. When he succeeded I hardened my heart against him. Any European would. It would be hard thereafter ever to like or trust this man again. This was a white man´s reaction. His cheating and bullying had also annoyed and disadvantaged his fellow Africans.
But when, having won, he turned to his black victims, all smiles, joshed with them and held out an arm to shake hands, their frostiness melted. This fellow was a winner. He was behaving in a kingly manner. They were on his side again — what a bloke! Resentment fled, to be replaced by a wish to be part of the top dog’s gang. That is how the common people of Africa let themselves down; by letting their own leaders let them down. I’m afraid an instinct for justice requires a certain meanness of spirit, an ungenerosity, an unwillingness to forgive. It may also involve a resentment or begrudging of power. Such qualities are not entirely likeable.
The passengers on Air Gabon forgave their friend. He will therefore do it again. I am not confident about the New Partnership for Africa’s Development in which the Prime Minister is putting so much trust. I wish he and Clare Short had been with me in that queue
Parris was born in Africa
This is why Africa gets the leaders it deserves
Matthew Parris
There was a woman who had whipped her hair into a sea of caramel spikes, which is hard to do with tight black African curls. There was a woman who had achieved a chemical blonde. There was a man in zips and a black leather coat — black on black — a batik skirt and new trainers, top of the range. There were men who had decorated their heads by mowing lines around the cranium, one in a crinkly, multicoloured crêpe-cotton shirt and rainbow plastic winkle-picker shoes, impossibly tight, cap worn backwards. He was trying to get upgraded into business class, inventing ludicrous stories.
The Englishwoman doing the check-in for Air Gabon at Gatwick was having none of it, and stood her ground. She had 36 passengers to check in for the flight from London to Libreville, via Brussels. It took her a little more than three hours.
This was not her fault. Her passengers were waBenzi, the term used across West Africa to describe the successful: the people with money, power or influence; the people who drive Mercedes-Benzes. There being few roads surfaced or properly maintained outside the squalid towns and cities, they do not drive far, but they drive big.
My fellow passengers at Gatwick struck me as worth describing less as an exercise in travel writing (we all have our airport stories) than as an object lesson in the politics of development. For this was the elite, the commercial and administrative class through whom (short of the reimposition of colonial rule) both aid and advice from countries such as ours must be channelled. These were the rich. They must have been. They were able to fly to and from Europe. Some were from Gabon, many from Congo, and all had been shopping.
The word “shopping” hardly does justice to the industrial scale of this little crowd´s acquisitions. I have seldom in one place seen a collection of luggage at the same time so ostentatious, so expensive and so gross. They were leather or fabric-covered suitcases as high as a child, and more cube-shaped than case- shaped.
And everyone kept pushing in. We started in a queue — three whites scattered among the Africans — but by the time the whites got anywhere near the check-in desk we were the last three in the line. The man in skirt and trainers and his enormous wife simply barged. Others sidled. Some struck up loud conversations with those at the front of the queue, then pretended to be positioned there.
A man in dark glasses (indoors, at night) and two noisy female companions held up the whole check-in for about half an hour with an argument about how much excess baggage his party had (a mountain) then, failing to fool the check-in agent, affected to saunter off with his women and talk to someone else — to show he didn´t care — leaving his documents half-processed on the counter. This delayed the agent´s work until she coolly shoved his documents aside and received the next passenger — whereupon Dark Glasses, alarmed, pushed in front of a middle-aged man of scholarly demeanour and his unpushy wife — infuriating the couple to the point of pushing back in again. Meanwhile, Crinkly Shirt, having succeeded in pushing in so brutally that Decorated Head protested, came over all loud-laughs-and-handshakes and “what-a-card-I-am, eh!” — which, such was its swagger and sudden bonhomie, worked. Suddenly, everyone was wreathed in smiles. Another cheater got away with it.
At last they were all ready for passport control. And of course after that they all got lost again in the duty-free shops. The flight was delayed while missing passengers were paged, latecomers sauntering up to the departure gate with yet more purchases in big bags, leading to more arguments about hand luggage and more attempts to cheat. Found out, the capacity of these people to affect innocent shock and apparent ignorance of every rule was astonishing. The airline attempted a staggered boarding procedure but nobody took any notice, stampeding at the gate and on to the plane, whereupon a handful more passengers tried to pretend that they were business class and had to be moved from these seats, each professing the same total surprise at their eviction as they had shown at the news that flying involves weight restrictions.
The Dutch crew handled this with bemusement. Though our airline was called Air Gabon, the plane and its captain and crew seemed to have been hired from a Netherlands charter company. All the stewards looked like Tintin and showed as amused a command of Third World chaos as Herve’s young Belgian journalist.
One sensed among this European crew an unvoiced — professionally unvoiceable — scorn for these passengers. The crew was resigned to such behaviour and they were paid them to handle it. One sense, too, the calm confidence we have when observing the vanity of fools, that they will not have the last laugh.
We took off, landing in Brussels 38 minutes later. Decorated Head complained loudly, to the admiration of his women, that there had been no refreshments: “Ce ne’est pas gentil,” he said to a stewardess. Dark Glasses was prevented from disembarking with the departing passengers to get some beer. On his behalf, Crinkly Shirt began a huge row, storming up and down the aisle, shouting and swearing that Belgium was a racist country and lunging at the stewardess as if to hit her.
At one point he yelled that he would get a gun “and blow this plane up”, and soon had a faction among the passengers muttering and interjecting in his support; but the Tintins were unmoved, everybody calmed down, and we were soon airborne.
Truculence turned back to docility as suddenly as it had flared up, supper was served, Crinkly Shirt banged his tray and demanded more beer, and soon everybody was asleep. When we landed six hours later, all the passengers clapped. We escaped into Libreville, a gentle mess of a place. Anger, jollity, meekness, swagger, obedience, had passed across these waBenzi like sun and rain racing across an island, with such speed: momentarily warm, momentarily cruel, suddenly kind, suddenly innocent, suddenly corrupt ... I tried hard not to quote to myself that famous line of Kipling’s, and I won’t here. These were only the regular waBenzi, perhaps trying too hard. The super-waBenzi would have been flying on Air France, business class, from their boltholes in Paris and Nice. They are less conspicuous. Those are the waBenzi with whom governments deal. These — economy class on Air Gabon with me — were the ones whom businessmen, aid workers, doctors and travel agents must face.
From the picture, the object lesson, I have tried here to paint, I would like to draw your attention to a detail I think important. With the broad view — of the volatile, sometimes brutal and sometimes rapacious people who have an unfortunate habit of getting to the top in Africa — I think we are pretty familiar. With the warmth and talent — the fortitude, the ingenuity and the huge likeability of the little people, the common people, of Africa — nobody who travels there can fail to be familiar. So we tell ourselves that by some tremendous mischance this most worthwhile of human races is persistently badly led.
But is it mischance? I had watched Crinkly Shirt barging the queue with growing fury. When he succeeded I hardened my heart against him. Any European would. It would be hard thereafter ever to like or trust this man again. This was a white man´s reaction. His cheating and bullying had also annoyed and disadvantaged his fellow Africans.
But when, having won, he turned to his black victims, all smiles, joshed with them and held out an arm to shake hands, their frostiness melted. This fellow was a winner. He was behaving in a kingly manner. They were on his side again — what a bloke! Resentment fled, to be replaced by a wish to be part of the top dog’s gang. That is how the common people of Africa let themselves down; by letting their own leaders let them down. I’m afraid an instinct for justice requires a certain meanness of spirit, an ungenerosity, an unwillingness to forgive. It may also involve a resentment or begrudging of power. Such qualities are not entirely likeable.
The passengers on Air Gabon forgave their friend. He will therefore do it again. I am not confident about the New Partnership for Africa’s Development in which the Prime Minister is putting so much trust. I wish he and Clare Short had been with me in that queue
Thanks for posting that. Parris can certainly write. What a communicator.
Westie. As long as it's 'Britain going in...' it's wrong. Whatever happens in Zim must be a wider effort by the UN, EU or some other coalition. Just as it has to be (politically) in Iraq.
Westie. As long as it's 'Britain going in...' it's wrong. Whatever happens in Zim must be a wider effort by the UN, EU or some other coalition. Just as it has to be (politically) in Iraq.
Does anyone else here remember various Tories accusing Peter Hain, two years ago when the Zim crisis started, of "making Britain a laughing stock" for being rude to Mugabe? It was just after he seized the diplomatic bag; whilst he was rigging the parliamentary elections etc - Hain called him uncivilised, Michael Ancram exploded....don't they ever read their own speeches?
But seriously...I recommend the Zimbabwe Daily News, www.dailynews.co.zw. This is the last honest newspaper operating in Zimbabwe, despite attempts to jail the editor, batter the reporters, and blow up the printworks (not once but twice) and the editorial offices. You can donate them money at the site under "Daily News Fund", and they need it.
BTW what reports that al-Qaida are brewing up chemicals in Iraq? Any evidence? It would be surprising, if only because the Baathists are a secular fascist party and have fallen out quite frequently with the Islamists. As someone once said about John Major, "being permanently in a minority of one is usually a sign of being wrong!"
But seriously...I recommend the Zimbabwe Daily News, www.dailynews.co.zw. This is the last honest newspaper operating in Zimbabwe, despite attempts to jail the editor, batter the reporters, and blow up the printworks (not once but twice) and the editorial offices. You can donate them money at the site under "Daily News Fund", and they need it.
BTW what reports that al-Qaida are brewing up chemicals in Iraq? Any evidence? It would be surprising, if only because the Baathists are a secular fascist party and have fallen out quite frequently with the Islamists. As someone once said about John Major, "being permanently in a minority of one is usually a sign of being wrong!"
West Coast,
Given your response (and subsequent editing of your first post), I should point out that my first line was not intended as a direct dig: I was trying to point out that it could start a "Well you did this, which makes you much worse than us" argument - which would distract from the points being made. I hope that you didn't think that I was taking a pop, and if I caused any offence or irritation, I apologise.
Given your response (and subsequent editing of your first post), I should point out that my first line was not intended as a direct dig: I was trying to point out that it could start a "Well you did this, which makes you much worse than us" argument - which would distract from the points being made. I hope that you didn't think that I was taking a pop, and if I caused any offence or irritation, I apologise.
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Excellent link Steamchicken, and bookmarked.
The official government news website is here....
http://www.chronicle.co.zw/index.php...ate=2002-08-23
That particular story is highlighted, because of the bottom line
The official government news website is here....
http://www.chronicle.co.zw/index.php...ate=2002-08-23
That particular story is highlighted, because of the bottom line
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Peter Hain's action was relatively tame, compared with Peter Tatchell's attempts to arrest Mugabe:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/a...447144,00.html
I don't normally approve of Tatchell's 'in-yer-face' form of gay rights activism, but you've got to admire his enthusiasm!
'West Coast' makes some very astute observations. I couldn't have put it better myself.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/a...447144,00.html
I don't normally approve of Tatchell's 'in-yer-face' form of gay rights activism, but you've got to admire his enthusiasm!
'West Coast' makes some very astute observations. I couldn't have put it better myself.
Jackonicko, if you are still viewing this thread,
I am having trouble following all your arguments so I would appreciate it if you could clarify a point for me:
A quote of yours from page 3 of this thread - "Few sensible people would object in principal to the notion of Africa for the Africans....." Who, precisely are you referring to? What makes an African an African? How many generations of a peoples' ancestors need to be born and live in Africa to make their offspring "Africans"?
I am having trouble following all your arguments so I would appreciate it if you could clarify a point for me:
A quote of yours from page 3 of this thread - "Few sensible people would object in principal to the notion of Africa for the Africans....." Who, precisely are you referring to? What makes an African an African? How many generations of a peoples' ancestors need to be born and live in Africa to make their offspring "Africans"?
While my point is I'll admit hopelessly idealistic, impractical and flawed, the general position I describe is one of discomfort that the 'Colonial Oppressors' should not, in general continue to thrive at the expense of the indigenous people.
I know that present black populations may not be indigenous (I read somewhere that Zulus were nearly as New to South Africa as the Boers, for example).
I know that some white Rhodesians have been there (or their families have) for two hundred years.
I'm not saying that they should simply be thrown out with no compensation. I acknowledge that they make a significant contribution to the well-being of their black co-citizens, and am surprised at Mugabe's short-sightedness. But the inequality which persists needs to be addressed, and the terrible injustices meted out to the native population do need to be redressed.
I don't approve of evicting White farmers and giving their land and property to Mugabe's cronies and relatives.
I don't quite get your banter with regard to Europe, old chap, but would say that I feel similar discomfort at the fate of Maoris, Aborigines and Native Americans. No-one would expect the whites to give up all their land and property and return to Europe from all of these places, but equally, some more equal co-existence should surely be aspired to, and some recognition of and restitution for historical wrongs should perhaps be considered. Shoving the Navajo (for example) into constrained reservations on the least useful and least cultivable desert land of Arizona and New Mexico doesn't really count, in my view.
I know that present black populations may not be indigenous (I read somewhere that Zulus were nearly as New to South Africa as the Boers, for example).
I know that some white Rhodesians have been there (or their families have) for two hundred years.
I'm not saying that they should simply be thrown out with no compensation. I acknowledge that they make a significant contribution to the well-being of their black co-citizens, and am surprised at Mugabe's short-sightedness. But the inequality which persists needs to be addressed, and the terrible injustices meted out to the native population do need to be redressed.
I don't approve of evicting White farmers and giving their land and property to Mugabe's cronies and relatives.
I don't quite get your banter with regard to Europe, old chap, but would say that I feel similar discomfort at the fate of Maoris, Aborigines and Native Americans. No-one would expect the whites to give up all their land and property and return to Europe from all of these places, but equally, some more equal co-existence should surely be aspired to, and some recognition of and restitution for historical wrongs should perhaps be considered. Shoving the Navajo (for example) into constrained reservations on the least useful and least cultivable desert land of Arizona and New Mexico doesn't really count, in my view.
Jacko - you're getting a bit out of your depth here, mate. Mr B knows all about South Rhodesia and its current troubles, having been born in Salisbury and having lived there for many years.
I remember Peter Hain from the 'Stop the 70 Tour' concerning the Seth Efrikan cricket team in 1970. He was a staunch anti-apartheidist. So if he treated Mugabe with the contempt which any uncivilised tyrant should expect, then that certainly wasn't down to any racial bigotry!!
I remember Peter Hain from the 'Stop the 70 Tour' concerning the Seth Efrikan cricket team in 1970. He was a staunch anti-apartheidist. So if he treated Mugabe with the contempt which any uncivilised tyrant should expect, then that certainly wasn't down to any racial bigotry!!
Jackonicko
I'm surprised that you don't get my "banter" about Europe. Using your logic, black people no matter if they were born in Europe and have lived here all their lives , should be moved back to Africa. Why stop there? Since the Germans bombed the Brits, maybe all Germans and German companies should be forced to give up everything they own in the UK?
You can not punish people for events that happend before they were born, nor can this be used as an excuse for crimes committed today. Organizations put into place to prevent these events happening again are failing the people of Zimbabwe today. If Mugabe was a white man, the UN would have taken drastic action a long time ago.
You can not punish people for events that happend before they were born, nor can this be used as an excuse for crimes committed today. Organizations put into place to prevent these events happening again are failing the people of Zimbabwe today. If Mugabe was a white man, the UN would have taken drastic action a long time ago.
Out of my depth perhaps, but simply view it as a moral issue.
If you can't do anything about historical injustices (cos it happened before they were born) then why make any fuss about Palestine, and why did we ever bother getting out of India? Why did we bother sorting slavery? Why give black Americans the vote?
I don't suggest that anyone should be repatriated, but do recognise that their are two injustices here. One being what is happening now to the privileged white minority, and the other being the rights of the indigenous population, who have been oppressed and subjugated for centuries.
The solution needs to be a compromise, and the problem is complex, but allowing a handful of white tobacco farmers to control most of Zimbabwe's good arable land is hardly a morally justifiable solution. The shame is that Mugabe's extremely populist solution of land reform (which is electorally popular and perhaps even democratically justifiable, at least in theory) promises to offer the worst of all worlds to everyone except Mugabe and his cronies.
No-one would support this programme of overnight eviction without compensation (but compensation was supposed to be funded by the UK Govt), but nor is it sensible to imagine that the status quo could be maintained for ever.
I do not feel that any comparison between black Britons and white Zimbabweans is valid. Our minority black population haven't been 'keeping us down' for decades, nor do they exert a disproportionate influence or have total control of UK agriculture or any other field of commerce.
The only European comparison I can find is the current drive by German families to recover property in what was Silesia and Pomerania, but which is now part of Poland. One might say that German conduct in WW II has set aside any claim on such property and territory.
There are plenty of reasons for doing something about Mugabe, whose disregard for democracy and oppression and suppression of his black opposition has been shocking. His treatment of the white farmers is also scandalous, but is the least of his crimes, and to over-emphasise this aspect of his regime is to play into his hands.
If you can't do anything about historical injustices (cos it happened before they were born) then why make any fuss about Palestine, and why did we ever bother getting out of India? Why did we bother sorting slavery? Why give black Americans the vote?
I don't suggest that anyone should be repatriated, but do recognise that their are two injustices here. One being what is happening now to the privileged white minority, and the other being the rights of the indigenous population, who have been oppressed and subjugated for centuries.
The solution needs to be a compromise, and the problem is complex, but allowing a handful of white tobacco farmers to control most of Zimbabwe's good arable land is hardly a morally justifiable solution. The shame is that Mugabe's extremely populist solution of land reform (which is electorally popular and perhaps even democratically justifiable, at least in theory) promises to offer the worst of all worlds to everyone except Mugabe and his cronies.
No-one would support this programme of overnight eviction without compensation (but compensation was supposed to be funded by the UK Govt), but nor is it sensible to imagine that the status quo could be maintained for ever.
I do not feel that any comparison between black Britons and white Zimbabweans is valid. Our minority black population haven't been 'keeping us down' for decades, nor do they exert a disproportionate influence or have total control of UK agriculture or any other field of commerce.
The only European comparison I can find is the current drive by German families to recover property in what was Silesia and Pomerania, but which is now part of Poland. One might say that German conduct in WW II has set aside any claim on such property and territory.
There are plenty of reasons for doing something about Mugabe, whose disregard for democracy and oppression and suppression of his black opposition has been shocking. His treatment of the white farmers is also scandalous, but is the least of his crimes, and to over-emphasise this aspect of his regime is to play into his hands.
Last edited by Jackonicko; 26th Aug 2002 at 18:21.
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Jacko, you may be on to a good thing here. Most of the surviving great estates in this country date from the Norman land-grab back in the 11th Century. Perhaps you feel that a spot of redistribution in favour of we humble Anglo-Saxons would be in order?
We quit India in 1947 because we could not afford ( or would not afford) to stay there. Also the Atlee government's socialist conscience was a bit tender.
We quit India in 1947 because we could not afford ( or would not afford) to stay there. Also the Atlee government's socialist conscience was a bit tender.
Jackonicko
You really do need to do some homework. Firstly Mugabe has not singled out "Tobacco" farmers. Secondly those "Tobacco" farmers keep a lot of "indigenous" people employed, more so than the new "foreign" owners of Zimbabwean property.
Secondly we all protested just as loudly when Mugabe slaughted the Matabele. The UK chose not to get involved in matters of a Zimbabwean nature. This time it involves British subjects and is very much a British matter.
Yes, why give black Americans the vote? According to you they belong in Africa?
The UK has poured millions of pounds into Africa and what good has it done? This time Africa needs to show some initiative before being proped up by the UK any further.
Also, it is not only the black people who have suffered in Africa. Just because they are in the minority does not mean that they do not deserve human rights.
Secondly we all protested just as loudly when Mugabe slaughted the Matabele. The UK chose not to get involved in matters of a Zimbabwean nature. This time it involves British subjects and is very much a British matter.
Yes, why give black Americans the vote? According to you they belong in Africa?
The UK has poured millions of pounds into Africa and what good has it done? This time Africa needs to show some initiative before being proped up by the UK any further.
Also, it is not only the black people who have suffered in Africa. Just because they are in the minority does not mean that they do not deserve human rights.
Claw,
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Singling out the white farmers and intervening on their behalf makes this appear to be no more than self interest and colonial style meddling.
Nowhere do I deny that what is happening to the farmers is not appalling (nor did I state that they all farmed only tobacco), why do you choose to ignore the injustices meted out to the majority population?
I do not pretend that black Americans belong in Africa, nor that white Americans belong here, nor that white Zimbabweans belong here. Don't be so silly.
Some adjustment in land ownership, however, is right, proper and inevitable following decolonisation, though I don't agree with Mugabe's way of implementing it. Should we have let Ronnie Biggs keep his loot?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Singling out the white farmers and intervening on their behalf makes this appear to be no more than self interest and colonial style meddling.
Nowhere do I deny that what is happening to the farmers is not appalling (nor did I state that they all farmed only tobacco), why do you choose to ignore the injustices meted out to the majority population?
I do not pretend that black Americans belong in Africa, nor that white Americans belong here, nor that white Zimbabweans belong here. Don't be so silly.
Some adjustment in land ownership, however, is right, proper and inevitable following decolonisation, though I don't agree with Mugabe's way of implementing it. Should we have let Ronnie Biggs keep his loot?
Jackonicko
What I'm trying to make you understand is that there are many complex injustices that need to be addressed and even minorities have a right to justice. This however is a seperate issue.
The issue at hand is that two wrongs do not make matters right. What Mugabe is doing is WRONG. End of story.
The issue at hand is that two wrongs do not make matters right. What Mugabe is doing is WRONG. End of story.
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The Claw.
You are spot on mate. Your views are mine exactly. As an old Africa hand (twelve years, Kenya and Nigeria), I put a post in this thread a few days ago, but was immediately removed by some Moderator, for presumably 'being too racist'. The general thrust of my argument was that we, in the West, have two options, which are:
1. Ignore Africa and let them get on with it.
2. Re-colonise the whole continent.
This post will, in all probability, be removed too. Think we have freedom of speech? Huh. Dream on.
You are spot on mate. Your views are mine exactly. As an old Africa hand (twelve years, Kenya and Nigeria), I put a post in this thread a few days ago, but was immediately removed by some Moderator, for presumably 'being too racist'. The general thrust of my argument was that we, in the West, have two options, which are:
1. Ignore Africa and let them get on with it.
2. Re-colonise the whole continent.
This post will, in all probability, be removed too. Think we have freedom of speech? Huh. Dream on.