Su-27 airshow crash

[Surly Bondslipper]

A horrible accident, but what about those Russian seats though, eh? It was reported that the Yanks were looking into buying some, as being better than any escape system in current Western service. Anybody know if this is happening?

[HectorusRex]

I think the total number of deaths Farnborough'52 was 27 or thereabouts, including the crew of Derry and Richards.

[rivetjoint]

I personally know c*ck all about the principles of flight so when someone like BEagle makes a comment its worth taking time to read and digest it all. Obviously though it seems that there is more than one way to interpret someone's personal view however.


I forgot to say that the DH accident in '52 is covered in the "Quest for Speed" episode of Reaching For The Skies. Lots of footage and eye witnesses etc.

[Baldie Man]

On the subject of BEagles post:

I feel slightly dissapointed by the slagging match that followed what was mearly BEagle offering some sort of analysis or opinion - this is a rumour network after all. Resorting to using asterix words and insults in a thread discussing a fatal accident is somewhat disrespectful IMHO and could almost be described as the bulletin board equivilant of scrapping at a funeral.
This site is read by many people not just those involved in the aviation world and it gives a bad impression. I think it would more appropriate when posting on future fatal accident threads to show a little more sensitivity and respect.

BM.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Reasonable speculation is encouraged.

After every accident there is always speculation. Followed by those decrying the speculation.

The official line is that the cirumspect, informed speculation is welcome.

BEagles post fits that bill.

WWW

[SixOfTheBest]

Sorry, got to agree with Pete O'H. I accept that, as a rumour network, it is a good thing that rumours/opinions are expressed. I draw the line when deaths are involved. And besides, I think Beagle is a D!ck. Just how does he seem to know everything? I suspect he has one of the biggest armchairs in the industry....He's also as opinionated as I am.....unfortunately.

My thoughts to the victims families. Horrific.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Six of the best - I object to that insult. The long standing PPRuNe'r you refer to has done many years of sterling work providing advice and guidance to people on the Private Flying, Flying Instructors and Wannabes forum.

In addition he helps keep this forum un-moderated and he answers PPRuNe HQ questions regarding issues of sensitivity.

I just told you that the post to which you object it bona fide in the view of the owner and adminstrators of this site. Thats the end of the debate I am afraid.

Keep your insults and language to yourself in future.




WWW

[Jackonicko]

From his public posts we know BEagle to be helpful, encouraging, polite, and level headed, and with a formidable level of knowledge. Since we can also discern that he's a QFI, a current military four-jet Captain (training captain) who has flown VC 10, Vulcan, and F-4, I'd say that his analysis is worth considering - whether speculative or otherwise.

You, Six, on the other hand, ARE an opinionated dick, and, before you point it out, it does "take one to know one".

[TomPierce]

SixOfTheBest

Big chip on the shoulder have we? That was a very insulting comment towards BEAgle. He actually probably thinks your initials should DHead anyway, I certainly do.

BEAgle has always struck me as being someone who gets brain in gear before opening mouth. I have a feeling that he is not far from the real truth in this unfortunate accident. Also, I have a real concern that these particular models are somewhat suspect and not quite right for flying displays. How many down now?

Whatever, attacking BEAgle will not win you any brownie points. So, do you have a better theory?

Jacko

It was 27 killed in '52 sadly. Kinda' gives a pointer to the fact that aeroplanes suffer from all kinds of happenings that will bring them to earth - in any circumstance, and at any time anywhere.

[BEagle]

Hello Chums!

Firstly, a little banter to 'Sex of the Beast'. Nothing to do with any of your curious flagellatory fetishes though.

Please explain why, after weeks and weeks of crossing the Atlantic, when the ship suddenly went thud against the strange continent of North America, your ancestors got together and said: "Now, stout fellows, let us think. To the South there is sun. There are beaches. There are babes. But verily I say unto thee to the North there is but darkness. Horrid bears. Trees. F*cking millions of them. And blackflies, moose and the worst beer in the known world. Shall we be sensible and go grab a brew or few with our Spam chums whilst we cruise their babes in Hooters? Or shall we turn right, wander abooooooot and inhabit a god-forsaken land of ice, trees, biting insects and blubber-eating weirdos?"

And lo, they decided that, being stupider than a stupid thing, right hand down was the thing to do. Eh?

PS - that's silly, playful banter. My little ladylove is Canadian, so I'm not being serious!

Oh - and sticks and stones, by the way!

When I was even younger than I am today, I was in the back of Dad's Ford Zephyr convertible whilst he was buying pre-Christmas cheap booze at the NAAFI at the Army Camp in Taunton. A friend of ours, a happy Hunter hero known as 'Farmer' Steele (died last year, went to his funeral. RIP) spotted me and asked "Whose aircraft lost a wing and pranged at Farnborough?" "John Derry in the DH...errr" I replied in a squeaky voice. I can still remember him writing '110' on the frost on the back window.........

Funny thing was my first military flight was in a Sea Vixen (son of DH 110) some 12 years later.

Nothing in the above should in any way detract from the horror which all pilots felt at the imagery of the accident in Lviv. Nor from the total sympathy expressed towards the bereaved by all on this thread. This website. As I write, sadly there are some very distressing charges being levied against the air display controllers in Ukraine.

And Six of the Best- Canadian beer SUCKS!! In my humble opinion!

[DESPERADO]

Although I am not convinced about some of the colourful expressions used by SOTB & PO'H etc I kind of understand the sentiment.
This forum is for Military flyers of whatever type; as far as I understand it is an international forum, not an RAF or UK forum. It is read and replied to from as far afield as the US, Australia, Europe etc etc and I am sure even the Ukraine. If a similar incident, God forbid, should have happened at Farborough, involving an RAF aircraft and crew, do we think it would be appropriate to start throwing around wild conjecture about puffs of smoke and stalled engines? I'll answer my own question, no it bl00dy well would not be. Its not fair on the crew, or the families of the dead. Just because it happened in the Ukraine doesn't absolve those of us, 'in the know' of responsibility to our fellow military flyers. Especially, as this site is often read by some of the more dubious members of the press (not talking about you jacko, I think). BEagle, I am sure you have zillions of hours flying rubber doggy doo out of BZN, you may even have a few FJ hours on some of the ac now rusting in front of various main gates, you may even be right about the cause of the accident, but some opinions (maybe even this one) should be kept to ourselves. Sometimes the Font of Knowledge needs a plug in it.
And that is my humble opinion.

SOTB. You haven't changed. I think I know who you are. I believe that we were on the same QWI a while back (different ac). I also remember very well what you did at your solo party at LOO. Nasty man.

Everybody else, stop coddling BEagle. BEagle seems to be quite capable of looking after himself, indeed, I am sure that he will soon 'show me my box'. Completely agree about the Canadian beer though, dreadful stuff; unfortunately, I believe you'll find that SOTB isn't one of the locals.

Seriously though, my thoughts are with the families of those that died, and with the crew who must be feeling terrible, whatever the cause of the accident.

[sprucemoose]

Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to get in on the BEagle bashing:

I've always found BEags to be an intelligent, informed and entertaining read, but I must object to his assertion that Canadian beer sucks. I'm rather partial to a bottle of Moosehead - is this a brew with which our Conway-loving compatriot is not yet acquainted?

On the accident, while speculation is what people like to do, I don't think we would have been so quick to judge one way or the other if this had been an RAF jet that had gone in at a UK show - don't rush to judge just because it was johnny foreigner. That aside, the slanging matches should be saved for jetblast.

[BEagle]

Moosehead......well, OK. Just. But comments remain for Labatt's and Molson's!! Or maybe it's just that they taste that way in Goose Bay. Eh?

All I said in my original thread was I thought that it looked as though there could have been a POSSIBILITY of an engine snag BEFORE the last roll, particularly as that roll appeared as though it MIGHT have been undemanded. That MIGHT have caused a departure - as it did with the MiG29 at Paris which lost an engine at a critical stage after a bird ingestion - from which recovery wasn't possible.

I made no comment about why the ac was where it was, at the height it was or doing what it was. Neither did I ever say I knew the PROBABLE cause.

So why the flak?

Anyway - I've had enough of the particular direction this thread is taking as it is not benefitting the bereaved, neither is it going to establish the cause of the accident. So I will refrain from further comment (hoo-bŁoody-ray I hear you say) until more FACTS emerge.

[SixOfTheBest]

Beagle,

Soz me 'ole, woz in a bit of a bad mood when I posted! Harsh banter retracted. You're right, Canadian beer tastes like water with a splash of Brit beer. It's a big country though....... I will never again post rude comments......

Jacko,

Stick it up yer rusty bullet-hole!!

TomP,

Same.

[Flap62]

Don't always agree with Mr Beags but hear goes ! This is a rumour network - no need to wait for the board of enquiry. If we wanted only facts then PPFane wouldn't work nearly as well. Almost all entries that do not threaten security or defame named individuals should be allowed. The kind of people who might say " steady on old boy, that's a bit rum" haven't lived in a banter rich environment, and don't give me that " oh how can you banter when so many died" garbage. Yes it's absolutely tragic and in no way the cause for any sort of humour but that's not the issue here. The post causing the upset might not be "well informed" but looked a reasonable stab at the coffee bar board of enquiry. Smokey donks or not, something caused the guy to pork it large.

Edited due to dodgey keboad

[Reichman]

Just to go back to Beags last thread. After the MiG 29 crash at Paris the CAA implemented a rule which forbids manoeuvres in multi-engined aircraft which would result in loss of control should an engine lose power/fail. Before any knee jerkers have a go I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS HAPPENED IN THIS CASE.

[Reheat On]

Hmmm ... interesting thread for 3 pages, of which 2 pages are erudite discussion about a not unrealistic pilot to pilot assessment of what might have happened. Other than Beag's 3 ha'porth, little to inspire.

The fact remains that somewhere in the psychology, the SU27 [ and the '29] jocks have become guidance advisors aboard uncrashable FBW 'point and fly' rockets which can simply power their way from deliberately induced unstable loss of control to instant normal flight in any chosen direction. All very well in AC at FL250, but a tad ball busting at 300'

Sympathy abounding, I think this is a case which simply proves that aerodynamics continues to rule. Impressive displays at ultra low level are associated with a concomitant impressive risk - the cause, be it compressor stall through a high g changing throttle requirement or whatever, is immaterial. The a/c left the envelope.

The necessity of such an accident must remain open to question; it could so easily have been avoided.

[Chris Kebab]

You've hit the nub of this Reheat On - "it could so easily have been avoided" which makes the loss of so many people even sadder.

For what it's worth, having seen several clips of footage, my instinct tells me that nothing was wrong with the engines - still time will tell.

And Canadian beer is garbage..

[rivetjoint]

The BBC had an interesting article on their site about the Soviet-era blame policy, do you think the accident investigation will ever make public news?

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

2 senior RAF officers got away with drawing up thier own conclusions over the Mull of Kintyre crash.

Pity the RAF didn't sack them B4 the results of the BOI like the Ukrainians have done.