Courts Martial Impartial?
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Courts Martial Impartial?
At the end of July, the House of Lords will give its ruling on whether the UK courts martial system contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights.
A 12-strong group, including an RAF Flying Officer, who was convicted of assaulting another officer, will argue that the courts martial system is unfair and that criminal offences committed by service personnel should be tried by the civilian courts.
Lord Thomas QC, who is putting the case for the servicemen, told a panel of five Law Lords that the recently reformed courts martial system is still incompatible with the human rights law that says everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law.
A decision in the servicemen's favour could lead to the abolition of courts martial.
It could be a close decision, but I believe the Law Lords will rule that courts martial do not breach the ECHR. IMHO, courts martial, which try criminal cases in the military community are as impartial as magistrates or juries, who try criminal cases in civilian communities.
A 12-strong group, including an RAF Flying Officer, who was convicted of assaulting another officer, will argue that the courts martial system is unfair and that criminal offences committed by service personnel should be tried by the civilian courts.
Lord Thomas QC, who is putting the case for the servicemen, told a panel of five Law Lords that the recently reformed courts martial system is still incompatible with the human rights law that says everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law.
A decision in the servicemen's favour could lead to the abolition of courts martial.
It could be a close decision, but I believe the Law Lords will rule that courts martial do not breach the ECHR. IMHO, courts martial, which try criminal cases in the military community are as impartial as magistrates or juries, who try criminal cases in civilian communities.
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Shame that the days of gentlemanly conduct where, when you know you are guilty, you stand up and accept the punsihment. Accountability is what I like to see. Some sad fellas just try everything to get off.
IMHO, the Court Martial system is not the best way to sort out serious crime. It is, however, an improvement of the crap Magistrates courts we have in the UK. I honestly believe that court martials are about as impartial as one can get and that those who have no legal background do get the right advice from the legal profession.
The only thing that is making a mockery of the system (and the UK judiciary) is the technicality lawyers. Those who are bound by no codes of conduct and who can throw as much dirt in the direction of the victim as they damn well like without the requirement to back it up with facts.
Keep the Military Court Martial, but it does need re-vamping. Why not go the US way and have Servicemen & women on a jury at Court Martials.
IMHO, the Court Martial system is not the best way to sort out serious crime. It is, however, an improvement of the crap Magistrates courts we have in the UK. I honestly believe that court martials are about as impartial as one can get and that those who have no legal background do get the right advice from the legal profession.
The only thing that is making a mockery of the system (and the UK judiciary) is the technicality lawyers. Those who are bound by no codes of conduct and who can throw as much dirt in the direction of the victim as they damn well like without the requirement to back it up with facts.
Keep the Military Court Martial, but it does need re-vamping. Why not go the US way and have Servicemen & women on a jury at Court Martials.
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solotk
I have done my 50 sit-ups, 25 press-ups, 25 fingertip press-ups and 25 chin-ups (15 backward, 10 forward) as I have done each morning and evening these past 19 years. Do I pass?
If there is anything even closely equating to true justice in this sad world of ours, it is probably the military courts martial.
I note that HectorusRex is a compatriot. God save the Queen, my good sir.
B u g g e r the Europeans, quite frankly. When they shag their society yet again, who will be called on to repair the mess?
Rule Britannia. Someone has to.
I have done my 50 sit-ups, 25 press-ups, 25 fingertip press-ups and 25 chin-ups (15 backward, 10 forward) as I have done each morning and evening these past 19 years. Do I pass?
If there is anything even closely equating to true justice in this sad world of ours, it is probably the military courts martial.
I note that HectorusRex is a compatriot. God save the Queen, my good sir.
B u g g e r the Europeans, quite frankly. When they shag their society yet again, who will be called on to repair the mess?
Rule Britannia. Someone has to.
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The system of Court Martial is fine. Its time that the process for minor offences was sorted out. I cant believe we still take money from soldiers, airman, sailors for the most trivial of matters, no wonder more and more are opting for CM, at least they get a impartial hearing, dont blame them!!
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I know of several courts martial with innocent verdicts. I worked hard on some defences, researched the prosecution cases and found some holes in their submissions etc. I got enough innocent verdicts to be asked to give up defending! I was 'only' a pilot with time on my hands and I liked trying to beat the system. DLS didn't do much a of a job, witnesses were not used to being really cross-examined and an innocent verdict was not necessarily too hard to come by.
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I prosecuted a charge in front of a CO. The bastard plead not guilty even though he was guilty. Got him guilty though.. His defending officer put him on the stand, and so I got my chance to tear him to bits. Charge went on for 4 hours. God knows what "full cost recovery" of him pleading not guilty would be giving the amount of time put in by all.
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Good God almighty Blue, are you a Secret Air Soldier?
I heard this on R4 yesterday, and the case of F/O David W who lost 3 years seniority and eventually his job, as a result of a "Tired and emotional" fracas outside the mess
Apparently, the assilantee refused to press charges, but a "Brother Officer" bubbled him.
The assailantee was subsequently identified as a hostile witness by the CM, so the gist was that F/O D had been well and truly stitched.
DW felt that a civil court wouldn't have been so harsh, and the CM system was blatantly unfair.
Personally, I have seen fights numerous, between drunken squaddies , and one punch up, that remained secret between 2 sulbertans somewhere hot and sunny. I'm wondering why the "Brother Officer" felt it neccessary to dob him in.......
I heard this on R4 yesterday, and the case of F/O David W who lost 3 years seniority and eventually his job, as a result of a "Tired and emotional" fracas outside the mess
Apparently, the assilantee refused to press charges, but a "Brother Officer" bubbled him.
The assailantee was subsequently identified as a hostile witness by the CM, so the gist was that F/O D had been well and truly stitched.
DW felt that a civil court wouldn't have been so harsh, and the CM system was blatantly unfair.
Personally, I have seen fights numerous, between drunken squaddies , and one punch up, that remained secret between 2 sulbertans somewhere hot and sunny. I'm wondering why the "Brother Officer" felt it neccessary to dob him in.......
I thought you might like the view of someone who has been court martialled. To start with, I had to present myself at the guardroom on the day of the court martial, to be placed under close arrest. For the remainder of the day I had to go everywhere escorted, with no hat. This is both humiliating and flies in the face of the tenet that a person should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. There was no “jury”, just a panel of 3 officers to try the case, plus a number of other officer there as observers. None of these people had any formal legal training, so the whole of the legal proceedings were run by the Judge Advocate and the councils for prosecution and defence, with the president acting as the JAs mouthpiece.
The outcome of the trial was that all charges against me were dismissed, but I have to say that the whole experience left a bitter taste. As someone with an unblemished 15 years service, I felt I received no official help or support from the RAF during this entire episode. I relied almost exclusively on my civilian council, who expressed his amazement and disgust at the whole system. It also transpired that I had been selected for promotion whilst awaiting court martial, but this had been held up pending the outcome. Another example of “guilty until proven otherwise”.
So to all of you championing the courts martial system, you may well change your views should you ever be unlucky enough to experience it first hand.
The outcome of the trial was that all charges against me were dismissed, but I have to say that the whole experience left a bitter taste. As someone with an unblemished 15 years service, I felt I received no official help or support from the RAF during this entire episode. I relied almost exclusively on my civilian council, who expressed his amazement and disgust at the whole system. It also transpired that I had been selected for promotion whilst awaiting court martial, but this had been held up pending the outcome. Another example of “guilty until proven otherwise”.
So to all of you championing the courts martial system, you may well change your views should you ever be unlucky enough to experience it first hand.
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Just so everyone knows there's no such thing as trial by jury in a civilian court either. The judge of course cannot rule if the defendent is guilt or innocent. That of course would be against the law. However he can force the jury's how to vote
Gentleman Aviator
But I understand the flying officer in question "had previous", and had been summarily tried by his AOC before on a similar charge, and had also (allegedly) been invited to leave yet another station he was visiting for similar reasons. How many drunken ("tired and emotional" then) punchups do we allow young officers before showing them the door??
And surely the dismissal was administrative action, the loss of seniority was the CM's sentence.
And surely the dismissal was administrative action, the loss of seniority was the CM's sentence.
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courts martial
speaking as an nco yes they are impartial. the person on this site who has been subject to cm action should realise that being placed in close arrest in the guardroom is equivalent to what happens if you go to a civvy court. and as for being marched around hatless, well have you ever heard of pour encourage les autres? simply put its saying to others if you f*** up this can happen to you! people have been commenting about officers having punch ups, i was at leuchars in the mid eighties and an officer was glassed in the mess. this was hushed up but word soon got around, how can the service maintain discipline if things like that go unchecked? i was pleased a few years later when two aircrew at chivenor were kicked out for setting fire to a bloke. and when back at leuchars ten years after the bloke got glassed a ut pilot hit a fellow oficer with a bottle, again it was in the mess. everyone thought he would just get a slap on the wrist, after all he was ut aircrew and we know how were always short etc. anyway he got 18 months and kicked out.
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there are several problems with the cm
primarily there is no real control over the procedure, for example, those who claim the procedure is impartial should be aware that the convening officer is not only responsible for charging the individual(s) but appointing the prosecution. the C O 's involvement covers pre trial, the trial and post trial procedure. The question of partiality has to be examined in light of whether it could be perceived that not only has this individual too much authority but whether that individual could unduly influence events. it is not a question of actually influencing, but merely the perception.
so, for all those who think the cm is impartial consider the following. X arrests you, X compiles the evidence against you, X then prepares the case against you, X then briefs the prosecuting authorities about the case, X advises the military throughout the procedure, X has the ear of the deciding officer. The case of Findlay v Uk decided that this could be not be perceived to be impartial.
And another thing, for the cm process to adhere to Art 6 of human rights act (fair trial) there has to be some right of appeal to a higher court, which there was not prior to the latest round of legislation going through the HofL.
personally those who have complained that the process is not impartial deserve to be heard sympathetically. put yourselves in their position, would you like to undergo a procedure that someone could quite easily knobble, and from which there was no right of reply?
oh and the govt didnt have to ratify the human rights act.
primarily there is no real control over the procedure, for example, those who claim the procedure is impartial should be aware that the convening officer is not only responsible for charging the individual(s) but appointing the prosecution. the C O 's involvement covers pre trial, the trial and post trial procedure. The question of partiality has to be examined in light of whether it could be perceived that not only has this individual too much authority but whether that individual could unduly influence events. it is not a question of actually influencing, but merely the perception.
so, for all those who think the cm is impartial consider the following. X arrests you, X compiles the evidence against you, X then prepares the case against you, X then briefs the prosecuting authorities about the case, X advises the military throughout the procedure, X has the ear of the deciding officer. The case of Findlay v Uk decided that this could be not be perceived to be impartial.
And another thing, for the cm process to adhere to Art 6 of human rights act (fair trial) there has to be some right of appeal to a higher court, which there was not prior to the latest round of legislation going through the HofL.
personally those who have complained that the process is not impartial deserve to be heard sympathetically. put yourselves in their position, would you like to undergo a procedure that someone could quite easily knobble, and from which there was no right of reply?
oh and the govt didnt have to ratify the human rights act.
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courts martial
you can appeal against a court martial findings! anyone remember the case at waddo a couple of years ago? it was blokes second cm for same offence! anyway what happened was first was abandoned due to a witness not being available. at second one a member of the court sent accused a note saying he was a scruffy git. quite rightly defending counsel drew the judge advocates attention to this, to say it hit the fan is an understatement! anyway thats got nowt to do with what i was saying, you can appeal against the sentence of a court martial. the vibes im getting from this site is that the officer corps seem to be most anti to the courts martial system, i might be wrong if i am then sorry but that is what im getting. i remember when the 2 guys were court martialled for shooting the jag down. there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth by raf senior officers at the lightness of the sentence. perhaps if they had been nco aircrew they would have been subject to a stiffer sentence? personally i would change courts martial system to a system similar to civvy stret, ie have a judge and jury and get rid of the president of the court, but what would we do about the junior subordinate commanders orderly room system?