WEBF has been stitched up???
Ivchenko,
Get real and get a life. My how I yearn for the cut and thrust of office politics, the throaty roar of the photocopier and the smell of correcting fluid drifting on the morning air.
The FJ crews only seemed to have two questions – what do you do for a living and how can I get to do that?
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Flap 62
That was predictable.
Sorry mate, that's what they said. Perhaps they realised that for many of us civvy life is not what you describe, but about having the freedom to have our own ideas, make them work, reap the rewards if they do and face ruin if they fail. And nobody to tell us what to do.
Nothing wrong with either, but you seem to be a classic example of how many in the services have no idea of what most of us out here actually do. This is a shame, it causes many to become unstuck and it infuriates me that the military powers that be don't do a better job of helping people coming out of the forces to move into civilian life.
PS Can't resist mentioning that the last time I saw a photocopier or a bottle of correction fluid was at RAF Linton last year.
That was predictable.
Sorry mate, that's what they said. Perhaps they realised that for many of us civvy life is not what you describe, but about having the freedom to have our own ideas, make them work, reap the rewards if they do and face ruin if they fail. And nobody to tell us what to do.
Nothing wrong with either, but you seem to be a classic example of how many in the services have no idea of what most of us out here actually do. This is a shame, it causes many to become unstuck and it infuriates me that the military powers that be don't do a better job of helping people coming out of the forces to move into civilian life.
PS Can't resist mentioning that the last time I saw a photocopier or a bottle of correction fluid was at RAF Linton last year.
Last edited by Ivchenko; 20th Jun 2002 at 15:01.
Lupus Domesticus
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Ah yes solotk, the infamous Quigley Report...... which the NZ government commisioned and then ignored and vilified when, horror of horrors, it went against their ridiculous and unworkable peacenik views by recommending that we actually retain an ACF, and take up the F-16 deal offered by the Yanks.
At the present time all major defence decisions, aquisitions, disposals and appropriations are on hold here until after the election, July 27th.
I have a bit of a stake in this. In recent years I've become active politically, and in the past eighteen months I have become heavily involved with two groups seeking both the reinstatement of the RNZAF Air Combat wing, and the elevation in government priorities of Defence generally.
We took the government to court over the decision to scrap the FJ fleet, and lost; went to appeal, and lost; and at the same time we have carried out a public and media campaign, and lobbied both the National opposition and its major potential coalition partner, the ACT party, to the extent that both have adopted the reinstatement of the ACF as stated policy.
It's been a long hard year and a half, and in five weeks we'll know the results....everything crossed, chaps!
So the selfish b@stard in me hopes you don't get your TA4 just yet, as I'd like to use them as a LIFT too.
At the present time all major defence decisions, aquisitions, disposals and appropriations are on hold here until after the election, July 27th.
I have a bit of a stake in this. In recent years I've become active politically, and in the past eighteen months I have become heavily involved with two groups seeking both the reinstatement of the RNZAF Air Combat wing, and the elevation in government priorities of Defence generally.
We took the government to court over the decision to scrap the FJ fleet, and lost; went to appeal, and lost; and at the same time we have carried out a public and media campaign, and lobbied both the National opposition and its major potential coalition partner, the ACT party, to the extent that both have adopted the reinstatement of the ACF as stated policy.
It's been a long hard year and a half, and in five weeks we'll know the results....everything crossed, chaps!
So the selfish b@stard in me hopes you don't get your TA4 just yet, as I'd like to use them as a LIFT too.
Ivchenko,
2 Scenarios:
1.) As a business man you have an ambitious business plan which you have to sell to the client. Its a new product and you've put in lots of time and effort to make it work. This is the big presentation to the banks and you have to make it work.
2.)As leader of a 4-ship you've just dropped of the tanker and have to lead your formation through a FEZ, bad weather and then onto a live range for LGB and HE rocket attack on the target. You have to come up with the plan, make it work and reap the rewards if it's a success. And nobody tells you what to do.
Compare and contrast.
having the freedom to have our own ideas, make them work, reap the rewards if they do and face ruin if they fail. And nobody to tell us what to do.
1.) As a business man you have an ambitious business plan which you have to sell to the client. Its a new product and you've put in lots of time and effort to make it work. This is the big presentation to the banks and you have to make it work.
2.)As leader of a 4-ship you've just dropped of the tanker and have to lead your formation through a FEZ, bad weather and then onto a live range for LGB and HE rocket attack on the target. You have to come up with the plan, make it work and reap the rewards if it's a success. And nobody tells you what to do.
Compare and contrast.
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Ivchenko
The freedom to have your own ideas.
Pause a moment, and reflect on the way your world would be if you didn't enjoy that privilege.
What a great shame it is that so many people in civilian life have so little idea of what it is that the military actually do.
Imagine, if you will, a world where there was no military working quietly behind the scenes, 24/7/52, preserving the freedoms you take for granted.
The professionalism of these people continues, and shines through, in spite of the abuse, contempt, and derision, levelled at them by the ignorant, the uninformed, and the unappreciative.
Assisting retirees to reassimilate into civilian life is probably the least that the corporate world can do in return.
The freedom to have your own ideas.
Pause a moment, and reflect on the way your world would be if you didn't enjoy that privilege.
What a great shame it is that so many people in civilian life have so little idea of what it is that the military actually do.
Imagine, if you will, a world where there was no military working quietly behind the scenes, 24/7/52, preserving the freedoms you take for granted.
The professionalism of these people continues, and shines through, in spite of the abuse, contempt, and derision, levelled at them by the ignorant, the uninformed, and the unappreciative.
Assisting retirees to reassimilate into civilian life is probably the least that the corporate world can do in return.
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The compare and contrast that Flaps mentions is along the lines of wha Mike Beachyhead is trying to achieve with one of his courses at Thunder City - comparing the synergy of fast jets and fast paced business.
As long as we all recognise the part each other plays in the big picture, then the world will remain intact
As long as we all recognise the part each other plays in the big picture, then the world will remain intact
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Flap62 and Bluewolf
I am totally and completely in agreement with everything you say; reading my earlier posts will make it clear that I was in no way critical, and most emphatically not unappreciative, of what the military do.
StandTo - yes, exactly.
Bluewolf - helping military retirees into the civvy world most definitely is something many civiian firms do. It's something I do, as I think I mentioned, and companies pay me to do it. The frustration I was expressing arises from the fact that we start at such a huge, and to my mind, unnecessary distance. I am not arguing that either (mil or civ) approach is "better", merely pointing out that I feel a greater degree of integration would benefit both worlds. It was the implication (in some, not all) of the earlier posts that the military way is the only way,and that if you can't hack it you are an inferior being, that I was responding to.
Flap the point you make by way of example is good in that it demonstrates in each case professionals operating at the limit of their ability, training and experience. And I don't need reminding that in only one situation can the consequences of a mistake be fatal.
However, it's not conclusive because it doesn't take into account the wider environment. The most important (by people employed) private sector employers today are small firms of less than 20 people. Staff counts in large companies are ever shrinking, and the concept of a job for life no longer exists. People are taking responsibility for their own careers, and for building their own sets of skills, attitudes of independence etc. This is happening on virtually every level throughout the country. Almost everbody in my social circle is self employed, and gets out of bed every morning having to motivate him or herself to do something which the market will want. That was the point and I find it is this approach that retiring senior officers find difficult, as they are used to having problems and challenges brought to them.
Again, I am a huge admirer of the military, have a number of mates in, or recently retired from, the RAF (including the excellent group from Valley and elsewhere who taught us how to fly formation at North Weald) and am trying to comment from an informed and constructive point of view.
Edited for cr@p English
I am totally and completely in agreement with everything you say; reading my earlier posts will make it clear that I was in no way critical, and most emphatically not unappreciative, of what the military do.
StandTo - yes, exactly.
Bluewolf - helping military retirees into the civvy world most definitely is something many civiian firms do. It's something I do, as I think I mentioned, and companies pay me to do it. The frustration I was expressing arises from the fact that we start at such a huge, and to my mind, unnecessary distance. I am not arguing that either (mil or civ) approach is "better", merely pointing out that I feel a greater degree of integration would benefit both worlds. It was the implication (in some, not all) of the earlier posts that the military way is the only way,and that if you can't hack it you are an inferior being, that I was responding to.
Flap the point you make by way of example is good in that it demonstrates in each case professionals operating at the limit of their ability, training and experience. And I don't need reminding that in only one situation can the consequences of a mistake be fatal.
However, it's not conclusive because it doesn't take into account the wider environment. The most important (by people employed) private sector employers today are small firms of less than 20 people. Staff counts in large companies are ever shrinking, and the concept of a job for life no longer exists. People are taking responsibility for their own careers, and for building their own sets of skills, attitudes of independence etc. This is happening on virtually every level throughout the country. Almost everbody in my social circle is self employed, and gets out of bed every morning having to motivate him or herself to do something which the market will want. That was the point and I find it is this approach that retiring senior officers find difficult, as they are used to having problems and challenges brought to them.
Again, I am a huge admirer of the military, have a number of mates in, or recently retired from, the RAF (including the excellent group from Valley and elsewhere who taught us how to fly formation at North Weald) and am trying to comment from an informed and constructive point of view.
Edited for cr@p English
Last edited by Ivchenko; 21st Jun 2002 at 15:23.
Thread Starter
The info pack from Getfitta arrived in the post today. I shall be starting their program VERY soon, ie this afternoon.
Paragraph deleted for being an apology that went wrong. Twas saying sorry for some dumb comments in my original post.
Paragraph deleted for being an apology that went wrong. Twas saying sorry for some dumb comments in my original post.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 22nd Jun 2002 at 14:51.
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Im really sorry the Navy thought you weren’t good enough for them, however if you spent more time training and learning how to iron (ask mummy) and less time on pprune whinging then maybe you would still have a job
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The info pack from Getfitta arrived in the post today. I shall be starting their program VERY soon, ie this afternoon
You forgot to say....
.....To esteemed Military colleagues,
Please disregard all after "Afternoon"
WEBF
Now go back and edit the message before you cause another series of sense of humour failures.
Tony
You forgot to say....
.....To esteemed Military colleagues,
Please disregard all after "Afternoon"
WEBF
Now go back and edit the message before you cause another series of sense of humour failures.
Tony
Gentleman Aviator
I hope this doesn't count as a "Sense of Humour Failure".
WEB F, if I may, some observations on your plight.
1. I don't know you, but you are obviously intruiging enough to catch and hold the attention of a number of us.
2. From a trawl of your posts over the past month (thank you pprune search engine) I can see that you are very well educated, and have an impressive grasp of higher strategy in defence matters, can write well and are clearly computer literate. (Hang in there Webby, I'm not taking the P%ss).
3. You are young (don't know what the age limit for starting "tiffy" training is, but it's young from where myself and most of your pporune "advisors" are looking) and (in your own way) idealistic. You are loyal and patriotic, which is pleasantly unusual in a young (?) civilian.
4. And yet ...... You have the benefit of some superb advice from many who must clock up hundreds of years total military service (solotk has given much particularly useful advice). ...... and yet, you seem strangely reluctant to concentrate ALL your efforts on what you profess to want so much.
5. Consider: in the last month you have made 52 pprune posts on 20 different threads, in 2 separate forums (fora?), the Mil and JB. You have started 4 other threads than this one.
6. You did not post during what I deduce to be your RN service of 27 May - 12 June (?). Yet during THE WEEK BEFORE you started training, you made 22 posts and started 2 threads. Amongst these, you quoted a letter written to your MP (about SHAR) "a couple of weeks ago". The letter ran to nearly 3500 words. Probably terrificly true and erudite (too much for this simple stick and rudder man - alright - cyclic and pedals man), and good prep for an M Phil in Defence studies - but not for basic military training. At the very least you could have been sh@gg!ng yourself stupid - probably would have helped the shuttle runs too!
7. OK, so that's in the past, and you have (sort of, I sense reluctantly) admitted your errors in preparation. So let's look at SINCE 12 June. 13 posts on this thread, and 17 others (including starting a JB thread on "Philosophical Song Lyrics"), and
you don't SEEM to have done much in the 10 days since you were chopped. To succeed (certainly in the military, which is what I know most about, but probably in anything) you must give it your ALL, ALL THE TIME. And this you don't, in all honesty, seem to do.
8. Which leads me at last to a conclusion. Whatever your lifelong dreams (which I can understand - I wanted to fly from about the age of 8), I really really don't think you are suited to a UNIFORMED military life. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are many ways you can loyally serve the country (and even the RN).
9. Have you considered, academia, defence journalism, defence procurement or whatever. You should always have Plan B, and perhaps now is the time to dust it off and DO SOMETHING.
10. Sorry to have hogged so much of the screen, but it needed saying!
WEB F, if I may, some observations on your plight.
1. I don't know you, but you are obviously intruiging enough to catch and hold the attention of a number of us.
2. From a trawl of your posts over the past month (thank you pprune search engine) I can see that you are very well educated, and have an impressive grasp of higher strategy in defence matters, can write well and are clearly computer literate. (Hang in there Webby, I'm not taking the P%ss).
3. You are young (don't know what the age limit for starting "tiffy" training is, but it's young from where myself and most of your pporune "advisors" are looking) and (in your own way) idealistic. You are loyal and patriotic, which is pleasantly unusual in a young (?) civilian.
4. And yet ...... You have the benefit of some superb advice from many who must clock up hundreds of years total military service (solotk has given much particularly useful advice). ...... and yet, you seem strangely reluctant to concentrate ALL your efforts on what you profess to want so much.
5. Consider: in the last month you have made 52 pprune posts on 20 different threads, in 2 separate forums (fora?), the Mil and JB. You have started 4 other threads than this one.
6. You did not post during what I deduce to be your RN service of 27 May - 12 June (?). Yet during THE WEEK BEFORE you started training, you made 22 posts and started 2 threads. Amongst these, you quoted a letter written to your MP (about SHAR) "a couple of weeks ago". The letter ran to nearly 3500 words. Probably terrificly true and erudite (too much for this simple stick and rudder man - alright - cyclic and pedals man), and good prep for an M Phil in Defence studies - but not for basic military training. At the very least you could have been sh@gg!ng yourself stupid - probably would have helped the shuttle runs too!
7. OK, so that's in the past, and you have (sort of, I sense reluctantly) admitted your errors in preparation. So let's look at SINCE 12 June. 13 posts on this thread, and 17 others (including starting a JB thread on "Philosophical Song Lyrics"), and
The info pack from Getfitta arrived in the post today. I shall be starting their program VERY soon
8. Which leads me at last to a conclusion. Whatever your lifelong dreams (which I can understand - I wanted to fly from about the age of 8), I really really don't think you are suited to a UNIFORMED military life. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are many ways you can loyally serve the country (and even the RN).
9. Have you considered, academia, defence journalism, defence procurement or whatever. You should always have Plan B, and perhaps now is the time to dust it off and DO SOMETHING.
10. Sorry to have hogged so much of the screen, but it needed saying!
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Getfitta
Kind of related....
Thanks to solotk for introducing me to getfitta. Signed up the day you first mentioned it here, just about to start week 2. Worth its weight in gold for its motivation powers!
Thanks to solotk for introducing me to getfitta. Signed up the day you first mentioned it here, just about to start week 2. Worth its weight in gold for its motivation powers!
Thread Starter
Solotk
I have started to use Getfitta. It seems really good. Thankyou for giving me the address. Oh and thanks for all the other advice you (and others) have given me.
I have started to use Getfitta. It seems really good. Thankyou for giving me the address. Oh and thanks for all the other advice you (and others) have given me.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Just want to make a point here... in my experience, there are some people who just have to have the last word. It doesn't matter what it is about or even if it has any relevance but they just have to have that final utterance. You know the type of people I mean, for example when finishing a phone conversation they are always going "bye... yep, bye.... bye bye.... see you... yep, bye..." ad infinitum. Well there are people like that on PPRuNe. They will post and post and post and it doesn't matter what the topic, they have to have the last word.
My point? well, based on the extensive experience of running this website and having read this thread with fascination, I have to conclude that WEBF is one of those people. It is not a criticism as such, just an observation and a trait that many people have but a trait that can possibly be to your detriment, especially in the military and especially so if you are just starting out.
Having been through the military myself, although many years ago and not in this country, I can still remember my basic training, especially the first week where we underwent the classic breaking down of the individual spirit in preparation for the team building and the subsequent physical fitness regime. In my case it was for entry into a paratroop brigade and the training was going to be long and arduous. Three weeks of basic training followed by a month of more specialised instruction and consolidation before a pleasant three weeks in jump school. In all, the training lasts 13 months before you are qualified and fully active. All through this period and especially at the start you wonder what it's all about and at times you are reduced to tears, but if you have it in your character you get support from your mates and get through the lows. By the end, you able to realise where it has all been leading and all the time you remind yourself that those instructors have been through all this too.
You rapidly learn that you will never have the last word, even if you know you are right. There is no logic, in fact there is a reverse logic at play and it has been described in earlier posts why some things are done in the way they are much more eloquently than I am able to.
So, to WEBF may I suggest that you now just sit back and read the priceless advice that has been offered to you on this thread and do not post any more words, whether excuses or statements. You have seen how easily many posters on here have aggressively attacked you for your stubborness whilst trying to defend your comments. It is this habit of coming back and repeating a point that has already been made, endlessly, especially after the good advice was provided. If you are able to take on board all the advice AND you are able to change your attitude then you will no doubt have no problem if and when you decide to re-apply.
To help you in this quest I am going to close this thread. The reasons should be clear by this stage but I will reiterate them here. Like the telephone conversation mentioned at the beginning, this will go on and on ad-infinitum unless I close it. Also, it could be the first step to proving to yourself that you can overcome the need to have the last word. Grit your teeth and get used to it because if you honestly want that career in the navy I would imagine you will have to work your way high up the ranks before you are going to have that 'last word' privelege.
Finally, because I am no longer in the military and I have the power to do so I am having the last word. QED
My point? well, based on the extensive experience of running this website and having read this thread with fascination, I have to conclude that WEBF is one of those people. It is not a criticism as such, just an observation and a trait that many people have but a trait that can possibly be to your detriment, especially in the military and especially so if you are just starting out.
Having been through the military myself, although many years ago and not in this country, I can still remember my basic training, especially the first week where we underwent the classic breaking down of the individual spirit in preparation for the team building and the subsequent physical fitness regime. In my case it was for entry into a paratroop brigade and the training was going to be long and arduous. Three weeks of basic training followed by a month of more specialised instruction and consolidation before a pleasant three weeks in jump school. In all, the training lasts 13 months before you are qualified and fully active. All through this period and especially at the start you wonder what it's all about and at times you are reduced to tears, but if you have it in your character you get support from your mates and get through the lows. By the end, you able to realise where it has all been leading and all the time you remind yourself that those instructors have been through all this too.
You rapidly learn that you will never have the last word, even if you know you are right. There is no logic, in fact there is a reverse logic at play and it has been described in earlier posts why some things are done in the way they are much more eloquently than I am able to.
So, to WEBF may I suggest that you now just sit back and read the priceless advice that has been offered to you on this thread and do not post any more words, whether excuses or statements. You have seen how easily many posters on here have aggressively attacked you for your stubborness whilst trying to defend your comments. It is this habit of coming back and repeating a point that has already been made, endlessly, especially after the good advice was provided. If you are able to take on board all the advice AND you are able to change your attitude then you will no doubt have no problem if and when you decide to re-apply.
To help you in this quest I am going to close this thread. The reasons should be clear by this stage but I will reiterate them here. Like the telephone conversation mentioned at the beginning, this will go on and on ad-infinitum unless I close it. Also, it could be the first step to proving to yourself that you can overcome the need to have the last word. Grit your teeth and get used to it because if you honestly want that career in the navy I would imagine you will have to work your way high up the ranks before you are going to have that 'last word' privelege.
Finally, because I am no longer in the military and I have the power to do so I am having the last word. QED
Last edited by Capt PPRuNe; 23rd Jun 2002 at 17:15.
