WE177 incident at RAF Bruggen
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WE177 incident at RAF Bruggen
Documentation, especially the BOI, makes interesting reading (there is some redaction but mainly names of individuals)
Very interesting reading!
If one picked out the bare fact - driving nukes around corners without strapping them down - everybody and his dog would conclude (rightly, according to the BOI) that the SSA guys were nuts.
Prima Facie, reading the 'excuses', it would seem that they couldn't make turnaround times with the kit on hand. So why didn't the Flt Lt simply state to HQ that the turnaround time would have to be 'Y' due to lack of kit, instead of 'X' as ordered?
He asked for the kit to meet the task as per regs, pleaded repeatedly for it in fact, but allowed the regs to be broken to meet the task. Then, having let the regs slip to allow tight tasks to be met, breaking the regs became an unwritten SOP, to the extent that the regs were still ignored on a wet day when there was no tight deadline.
I'd also want to know:
Did the guy setting the tight deadlines know that Bruggen could not meet them? If not, why not?
Worth remembering that the ethos of the RAF during the Cold War was 'task is paramount'. As an FJ pilot, I can only recall one occasion when the formation leader refused the task, due to weather being forecast outside limits for parachuting in case of ejection*. The Auth stood his ground and insisted on the task. The tension lasted a few seconds before all the other 3 pilots (me being one) refused the task on the same grounds, in support of the leader. The Auth backed down. Nothing more was ever said. However all 4 pilots left the RAF within 4 years and none were promoted past Flt Lt.
*Do you want to parachute into the Norwegian Sea in winter at night in winds of over 40 kts?
If one picked out the bare fact - driving nukes around corners without strapping them down - everybody and his dog would conclude (rightly, according to the BOI) that the SSA guys were nuts.
Prima Facie, reading the 'excuses', it would seem that they couldn't make turnaround times with the kit on hand. So why didn't the Flt Lt simply state to HQ that the turnaround time would have to be 'Y' due to lack of kit, instead of 'X' as ordered?
He asked for the kit to meet the task as per regs, pleaded repeatedly for it in fact, but allowed the regs to be broken to meet the task. Then, having let the regs slip to allow tight tasks to be met, breaking the regs became an unwritten SOP, to the extent that the regs were still ignored on a wet day when there was no tight deadline.
I'd also want to know:
Did the guy setting the tight deadlines know that Bruggen could not meet them? If not, why not?
Worth remembering that the ethos of the RAF during the Cold War was 'task is paramount'. As an FJ pilot, I can only recall one occasion when the formation leader refused the task, due to weather being forecast outside limits for parachuting in case of ejection*. The Auth stood his ground and insisted on the task. The tension lasted a few seconds before all the other 3 pilots (me being one) refused the task on the same grounds, in support of the leader. The Auth backed down. Nothing more was ever said. However all 4 pilots left the RAF within 4 years and none were promoted past Flt Lt.
*Do you want to parachute into the Norwegian Sea in winter at night in winds of over 40 kts?
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I was there when it happened lol, we used to talk about it in hushed tones. I wonder if the other incidents are in public domain yet I notice it was requested, so the person asking must of had knowledge of it?
Last edited by NutLoose; 12th Jan 2014 at 00:57.
As an FJ pilot, I can only recall one occasion when the formation leader refused the task, due to weather being forecast outside limits for parachuting in case of ejection*.
WTFO!!!!
What were the wind limits for parachuting after ejection? I can't ever remember seeing them in writing!
WTFO!!!!
What were the wind limits for parachuting after ejection? I can't ever remember seeing them in writing!
newt, I seem to recall them coming in around 1980/81-ish? Perhaps you were flying your Captain Speaking jet by then?
Something to do with the types of parachute then coming into service?
An auth was desperately keen for us to add a few more MLPI hours to the line on the boss's wall one cold winter night, but it was obvious that the aerodrome was becoming icy and there was a strong risk of radiation fog. But he dug his heels in, from the comfort of the nice, warm Ops room and said that he'd wait for a report on conditions from a C-130 due to land in the following few minutes in order to reassure us....
When asked, the Herc captain replied "What braking action? It's like a ****ing skating rink out there and we're not going anywhere!".....
Collapse of stout party - and we stacked asap!
On another occasion, the local roads were covered in ice and snow when I was due to set off for the aerodrome. So I rang in:-
"Is the RW open?"
"No - they've been trying to clear the camp roads and RW for ages and it's just started snowing again. But try and come in anyway"
"Whatever for? Driving conditions are treacherous, there's no chance of flying, so what would be the point? I'm staying here." Click.
But I suppose if you've walked the few yards from your OMQ to the sqn and you're a FJ Flt Cdr who still thinks he's got a career, other peoples' real life issues are of little importance. On my previous, non-FJ tour, we didn't suffer such nonsense - things were rather more adult generally.
Including anything to do with special weapons, about which no errors of any kind would ever have been tolerated and any non-SOP behaviour would have been firmly stamped upon. So that Bruggen incident frankly astonishes me - however did things get so lax?
Something to do with the types of parachute then coming into service?
An auth was desperately keen for us to add a few more MLPI hours to the line on the boss's wall one cold winter night, but it was obvious that the aerodrome was becoming icy and there was a strong risk of radiation fog. But he dug his heels in, from the comfort of the nice, warm Ops room and said that he'd wait for a report on conditions from a C-130 due to land in the following few minutes in order to reassure us....
When asked, the Herc captain replied "What braking action? It's like a ****ing skating rink out there and we're not going anywhere!".....
Collapse of stout party - and we stacked asap!
On another occasion, the local roads were covered in ice and snow when I was due to set off for the aerodrome. So I rang in:-
"Is the RW open?"
"No - they've been trying to clear the camp roads and RW for ages and it's just started snowing again. But try and come in anyway"
"Whatever for? Driving conditions are treacherous, there's no chance of flying, so what would be the point? I'm staying here." Click.
But I suppose if you've walked the few yards from your OMQ to the sqn and you're a FJ Flt Cdr who still thinks he's got a career, other peoples' real life issues are of little importance. On my previous, non-FJ tour, we didn't suffer such nonsense - things were rather more adult generally.
Including anything to do with special weapons, about which no errors of any kind would ever have been tolerated and any non-SOP behaviour would have been firmly stamped upon. So that Bruggen incident frankly astonishes me - however did things get so lax?
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Jan 2014 at 08:42.
As an FJ pilot, I can only recall one occasion when the formation leader refused the task, due to weather being forecast outside limits for parachuting in case of ejection*.
Beags. I was still flying FJ in the early eighties and we have all come across that new Flt Cdr who thinks he has a career. However a sense of pride in the job and some carry on spirit should never go amiss!
It may just be the way this story was recounted but surely arguing with the auth at the ops desk is not the best way to deal with the situation? Taxi to the runway and then declare the wind out of limits is just one option which allows some credibility for auth and the guys involved?
I'm off for Sunday lunch now! Dry too as it's January!
It may just be the way this story was recounted but surely arguing with the auth at the ops desk is not the best way to deal with the situation? Taxi to the runway and then declare the wind out of limits is just one option which allows some credibility for auth and the guys involved?
I'm off for Sunday lunch now! Dry too as it's January!
There has been a limit for at least 30 years and we are not the only air force to have a prescribed limit for training flights by day and by night. During ops or QRA the limits are less restrictive and can be waived entirely.
I will not post the limits or who has the authority to waive them or indeed the grounds required to relax or waive them.
I will not post the limits or who has the authority to waive them or indeed the grounds required to relax or waive them.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Certainly in the 80s we had sorties cancelled or play areas changed because of surface winds out of limits - that was at Coningsby.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On weapon loading times, with the YS2 it was possible to get the weapon loaded and handed over in 7 minutes.
With the introduction of the WE177 the time jumped to 95 minutes and the station commander went ballistic. The evolution was then clipped to around 35 minutes. I don't know what, if any, corners were cut.
With the introduction of the WE177 the time jumped to 95 minutes and the station commander went ballistic. The evolution was then clipped to around 35 minutes. I don't know what, if any, corners were cut.
Newt
Wind limits for non-op flying have been around for years. 40kts of wind in your chute and then hitting the ground would be a leg breaker at the very least. Also there are sea state limits as well as 1 man dinghys don't do well in Sea State 6!
LJ
Wind limits for non-op flying have been around for years. 40kts of wind in your chute and then hitting the ground would be a leg breaker at the very least. Also there are sea state limits as well as 1 man dinghys don't do well in Sea State 6!
LJ
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Was stripped to the waist playing handball over lunchtime at the airfield side of "the big shed" at laarpads when a herc landed and went off to the site. game carryed on until it got busy over there. We were able to watch as a 
tarp carrying "s" type slowly rolled off the side of the ramp and overturned..........well were were all still there and no bangs so we just carried on with the game!
Good for the Station Commander to stick it to the usual "blame them all" BOI result as well Salute Sir.
Jnr Tech, the best rank in the Air Force!
tarp carrying "s" type slowly rolled off the side of the ramp and overturned..........well were were all still there and no bangs so we just carried on with the game!Good for the Station Commander to stick it to the usual "blame them all" BOI result as well Salute Sir.
Jnr Tech, the best rank in the Air Force!
Last edited by glad rag; 12th Jan 2014 at 11:11. Reason: Edited to remove my evolved hatred of snowdrops.
I didn't want to get away from the OPs point about nukes and how dodgy practices arose (and maybe still arise?), but
I have subsequently got to know a military parachute tester - the guy who tested wacky equipment/profiles for the SAS, etc. His opinion of 40+kts into the sea at night was "f#cking suicidal".
I've also subsequently been sailing singlehanded at night in Sea State 9. Parachuting into it? No thank you.
I have subsequently got to know a military parachute tester - the guy who tested wacky equipment/profiles for the SAS, etc. His opinion of 40+kts into the sea at night was "f#cking suicidal".
I've also subsequently been sailing singlehanded at night in Sea State 9. Parachuting into it? No thank you.
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I didn't want to get away from the OPs point about nukes and how dodgy practices arose (and maybe still arise?), but
LJ. Whilst I accept there are weather conditions which may make parachuting a dangerous occupation, I personally have never had a sortie cancelled due to the wind being out of limits should one have to use the Martin Baker letdown. I have changed the route ie not go low flying in Scotland when the wind is gale force! That comes under title "Common Sense" for me!
If you take these rules to the absolute, based on a forecast, then I suspect there would be summer operations only!
If you take these rules to the absolute, based on a forecast, then I suspect there would be summer operations only!
Fellow Cold Warriors will no doubt recall the joys of the annual WST visit when the team would arrive and assess our Special Weapons knowledge / drills. Fail assessment and you would be in the deep and smelly!
One cold day it was finally our turn to 'accept' our weapon at the 230 OCU dispersal where the test assessments were being conducted. You were under the microscope from the moment you left the transport and approached the RAFP with his woolly crocodile. Stricy adherance to the 2 man principle was mandatory; this even included going with the AEO to start the GPU, lest he should carry out an 'unauthorised act or incorrect procedure'. As we walked back to the jet, I noticed that no-one had bothered to clear the snow from the pan, as the jet wasn't going to fly while it had a 'shape' loaded. But the pile of snow in front of the nosewheel meant that we wouldn't have been able to taxy out, so we called over to the RAFP that we were going to kick a clear path through the snow.
As I hoofed it out of the way, my foot made contact with something substantial. A large, heavy picketing pin (which would have knackered the nosewheels if we'd taxyed over it) had been concealed by the snow. So we told our friendly copper to make a note that we were moving it clear of the jet and did so. The AEO and I assumed that this was a WST trap, so continued with the acceptance. Which went fine until the Nav Rad decided that the manual bomb release flap hadn't been properly wire restrained as he could get his finger between the flap and button without breaking the wire seal... So that ended the assessment.
Afterwards I told the WST chaps that the concealed picketing pin was a bit sneaky of them, only to be told "It wasn't us - and none of the other crews had noticed it!". In the end they didn't fail the others, but they did have a few words with the OCU SEngO about the state of preparedness of the designated pan.... Whereupon the smelly stuff flowed downhill in the time-honoured fashion and some poor young LAC found himself doing a few days jankers. Which was very unfair - screwing up in front of WST should have resulted in ar$e-kicking for those at higher level, in my view, rather than pinning (sorry) the blame on some young lad who clearly hadn't been properly supervised....
One cold day it was finally our turn to 'accept' our weapon at the 230 OCU dispersal where the test assessments were being conducted. You were under the microscope from the moment you left the transport and approached the RAFP with his woolly crocodile. Stricy adherance to the 2 man principle was mandatory; this even included going with the AEO to start the GPU, lest he should carry out an 'unauthorised act or incorrect procedure'. As we walked back to the jet, I noticed that no-one had bothered to clear the snow from the pan, as the jet wasn't going to fly while it had a 'shape' loaded. But the pile of snow in front of the nosewheel meant that we wouldn't have been able to taxy out, so we called over to the RAFP that we were going to kick a clear path through the snow.
As I hoofed it out of the way, my foot made contact with something substantial. A large, heavy picketing pin (which would have knackered the nosewheels if we'd taxyed over it) had been concealed by the snow. So we told our friendly copper to make a note that we were moving it clear of the jet and did so. The AEO and I assumed that this was a WST trap, so continued with the acceptance. Which went fine until the Nav Rad decided that the manual bomb release flap hadn't been properly wire restrained as he could get his finger between the flap and button without breaking the wire seal... So that ended the assessment.
Afterwards I told the WST chaps that the concealed picketing pin was a bit sneaky of them, only to be told "It wasn't us - and none of the other crews had noticed it!". In the end they didn't fail the others, but they did have a few words with the OCU SEngO about the state of preparedness of the designated pan.... Whereupon the smelly stuff flowed downhill in the time-honoured fashion and some poor young LAC found himself doing a few days jankers. Which was very unfair - screwing up in front of WST should have resulted in ar$e-kicking for those at higher level, in my view, rather than pinning (sorry) the blame on some young lad who clearly hadn't been properly supervised....
PN: [I]With the introduction of the WE177 the time jumped to 95 minutes and the station commander went ballistic. The evolution was then clipped to around 35 minutes. I don't know what, if any, corners were cut.[I]
Having loaded plenty to Buccs 35 mins would be an bloody good time from the trolley being left in the HAS, I would say the ave was about 50 mins. Trust me, corners were never cut. We were examined every 30 days by the unit team and at least once a year by WST. For example during loading we were never allowed to call each other by names, just a number depending on your role in the four man team. The one advantage in exercises in the nuclear stage was that no-one ever hassled you and the armed policeman outside the HAS never let anyone in! The downside was we were always live armed (with smg's) which was a real pain in the butt come the end of the exercise.... happy days
Having loaded plenty to Buccs 35 mins would be an bloody good time from the trolley being left in the HAS, I would say the ave was about 50 mins. Trust me, corners were never cut. We were examined every 30 days by the unit team and at least once a year by WST. For example during loading we were never allowed to call each other by names, just a number depending on your role in the four man team. The one advantage in exercises in the nuclear stage was that no-one ever hassled you and the armed policeman outside the HAS never let anyone in! The downside was we were always live armed (with smg's) which was a real pain in the butt come the end of the exercise.... happy days
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
dct, there was more room under a Vulcan and we used to do simultaneous HO/TO at the end of the load sequence.
BEagle,
Not guilty on that one, but at Waddo the bosses crew sauntered out in blues, macs etc, and proceeded to do the WST. All went well until the last minute. The last to exit the aircraft was the co-pilot. As he descended his mac got caught in the cockpit. At the moment critical the captain turned his back and the co re-entered the cockpit. FAIL.
At another unit, again the bosses crew, they sauntered out to the aircraft and were already to do the business but of the WST, no sign. I was with the crew chief in the hut with the 700. Well, not a fail, but a very cheesed off wg cdr.
Then on yet another, in another Mediterranean airfield we had the 'star' crew. The sqn execs were not crewed so they formed a crew for WST purposes. They passed but it was a real peachy test.
BEagle,
Not guilty on that one, but at Waddo the bosses crew sauntered out in blues, macs etc, and proceeded to do the WST. All went well until the last minute. The last to exit the aircraft was the co-pilot. As he descended his mac got caught in the cockpit. At the moment critical the captain turned his back and the co re-entered the cockpit. FAIL.
At another unit, again the bosses crew, they sauntered out to the aircraft and were already to do the business but of the WST, no sign. I was with the crew chief in the hut with the 700. Well, not a fail, but a very cheesed off wg cdr.
Then on yet another, in another Mediterranean airfield we had the 'star' crew. The sqn execs were not crewed so they formed a crew for WST purposes. They passed but it was a real peachy test.
Newt
If it's blowing over 40kts at my home base or sea state 6 in the designated ejection area then I have cancelled many sorties. I guess you must have been lucky?
The B Word
If it's blowing over 40kts at my home base or sea state 6 in the designated ejection area then I have cancelled many sorties. I guess you must have been lucky?
The B Word