Interesting take on MPA
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I don't believe freeing up any people from Tonka, Sentinel or any other capability will provide the manning to support any MPA.
Just look how times have changed. New capabilities are introduced with support being provided by the platform main contractor. the staff being mostly ex Service. take C130 - the majority of the support being provided by MA at Cambridge and Brize. Rivet Joint - As I understand L3 will provide most of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th line support including staff based at Waddington. Raytheon already support the Sentinel at Waddington. I think this is the model for the future. Gone are NMSU, EWAD, St Athan and many of the MUs that we once had. I think the seedcorn initiative will kick off any rear end aircrew requirement (the formation pie eating team) but certainly not the support.
The problem with this in the UK is that the pool of trained and suitably skilled manpower will soon dry up. All very short term. I think this model has been effective in the US. I cite the SR71 programme which had industry experts close to the front from the start.
Just look how times have changed. New capabilities are introduced with support being provided by the platform main contractor. the staff being mostly ex Service. take C130 - the majority of the support being provided by MA at Cambridge and Brize. Rivet Joint - As I understand L3 will provide most of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th line support including staff based at Waddington. Raytheon already support the Sentinel at Waddington. I think this is the model for the future. Gone are NMSU, EWAD, St Athan and many of the MUs that we once had. I think the seedcorn initiative will kick off any rear end aircrew requirement (the formation pie eating team) but certainly not the support.
The problem with this in the UK is that the pool of trained and suitably skilled manpower will soon dry up. All very short term. I think this model has been effective in the US. I cite the SR71 programme which had industry experts close to the front from the start.
I don't believe freeing up any people from Tonka, Sentinel or any other capability will provide the manning to support any MPA.
downsizer,
How do you then plan to man your JSF Sqns, especially when you consider that the first of them is due to stand up well before any MMA/MPA Sqn could/would be formed?
How do you then plan to man your JSF Sqns, especially when you consider that the first of them is due to stand up well before any MMA/MPA Sqn could/would be formed?
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I'm with you Downsizer. That is how it should work. But not how it appears to work. The bean counters worked out that it was cheaper for Defence to outsource. unfortunately I have never been sharp enough to work this out.
How do you then plan to man your JSF Sqns, especially when you consider that the first of them is due to stand up well before any MMA/MPA Sqn could/would be formed?
Shouldn't be too hard to find 1 sqn's worth of manning out of the tonka remants (and lets not forget the considerable blue presence at 2nd line helping BAe) allied with the C130 drawdown and binning of merlin.
I'm not being really serious here I hasten to add, just a bit of light hearted spit-balling. But then there is an awful lot of servicemen keeping tornado in the air.
Yes I am..... it's just that you still then went on to say "there is an awful lot of servicemen keeping tornado in the air".....
Anyway, keep 'spit-balling'..... and Happy New Year!
Anyway, keep 'spit-balling'..... and Happy New Year!
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To clarify (not that it should be needed)
It matters not a jot whether your engineers (1st line, 2nd line whatever) are military dudes or civilian contractors. They is still all people and they all has to be paid, or paid for, from somebody's budget. Know what I mean.
Unless somebody out there has a working model for providing engineering support to combat military aircraft from some sort of charitable young offenders outreach programme
It matters not a jot whether your engineers (1st line, 2nd line whatever) are military dudes or civilian contractors. They is still all people and they all has to be paid, or paid for, from somebody's budget. Know what I mean.
Unless somebody out there has a working model for providing engineering support to combat military aircraft from some sort of charitable young offenders outreach programme
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Agree completely Betty but I seriously don't think there is much chance of an off the shelf MMA (P-8 or C295). As a former Kipper fleet member I think if it does come back it will be headed by the RN.........in my opinion this is probably better long term. The RAF will always support the fast pointy things and the assets it sees which supports them. E-3 will remain and Sentinel could be our MMA!!! Who knows, but I think many of us are now losing the hope that a true MMA with a long range ASW/ASuW capability will happen within the next 5 years.
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I must confess to having problems understanding the practicalities of the seedcorn programme. Could someone please fill me in on the numbers of 'seedcorners' that are currently deployed with a breakdown by pilot/nav/AeOp. When did the bulk of them take up their postings and are they on 2 or 3 years stints? Thanks in anticipation.
Well a Happy New year to all concerned with the future UK MMA capability …
And cheer up – it can be done but we need to be sure what we need.
Do we need all our E-3 fleet as it currently equipped and manned? Is Sentinel going to remain – if so doing what and where, for whom?
Are we sure we need two squadrons of Reapers that we probably won’t be able to use in the UK?
How many FJ people do we need for future F-35 plans – if there are any?
Does anyone who knows anything actually have a plan? Or are we going to have to fund yet more ‘feasibility studies’?
‘Joe Black’, you are close when you say Sentinel may be our next MMA. Of course it won’t despite all the spin, it remains a simple wide area radar only tool. However, the money currently spent on funding 5 Squadron could be used to support a joint RN/RAF MMA. Flog the jets back to Bombardier lease some P-8’s and let’s get on with it.
‘Nimbev’, you asked about my mates on Seedcorn. They are on a three year loan … this may be extended of course. They are unlikely to be replaced as we have no current folk to replace them – it was a one-off shot. They consist of front and rear crewguys, some of the best we had left.
No one pretends that this will be easy … few would argue that it is not necessary.
And cheer up – it can be done but we need to be sure what we need.
Do we need all our E-3 fleet as it currently equipped and manned? Is Sentinel going to remain – if so doing what and where, for whom?
Are we sure we need two squadrons of Reapers that we probably won’t be able to use in the UK?
How many FJ people do we need for future F-35 plans – if there are any?
Does anyone who knows anything actually have a plan? Or are we going to have to fund yet more ‘feasibility studies’?
‘Joe Black’, you are close when you say Sentinel may be our next MMA. Of course it won’t despite all the spin, it remains a simple wide area radar only tool. However, the money currently spent on funding 5 Squadron could be used to support a joint RN/RAF MMA. Flog the jets back to Bombardier lease some P-8’s and let’s get on with it.
‘Nimbev’, you asked about my mates on Seedcorn. They are on a three year loan … this may be extended of course. They are unlikely to be replaced as we have no current folk to replace them – it was a one-off shot. They consist of front and rear crewguys, some of the best we had left.
No one pretends that this will be easy … few would argue that it is not necessary.
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BS you beat me to it. An MPA based, in say an airfield near Forres, could have made an initial welcoming party at over 1000 miles north.
The Russians are now doing what we used to do to them. We did it because we had the assets, were confident in our ability and considered them as a spent force.
The Russians are now doing what we used to do to them. We did it because we had the assets, were confident in our ability and considered them as a spent force.
Does anyone else think how nice the Russians are being to the RN?
If they really wanted to be difficult they could have waited until Defender had got within 150 miles or so and then buggered-off on an anti-clockwise lap of the UK in a kind of low-speed police / Benny Hill style chase back to Portsmouth…
If they really wanted to be difficult they could have waited until Defender had got within 150 miles or so and then buggered-off on an anti-clockwise lap of the UK in a kind of low-speed police / Benny Hill style chase back to Portsmouth…
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The article makes reference to the RAF having followed the ship. so we must have some limited capability. I noticed the Grobs active over Grafham Water just before Christmas.
There was one occasion, the crew gathered in the dining room having just ordered a light repast when they were scambled
The article makes reference to the RAF having followed the ship. so we must have some limited capability.
