One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)
EDIT: Is there any reason you cannot have made your opening post comment in the thread about General Giap? That thread was begun on 04 October, yours seven + days later.
2. I read the McCain piece. My response was "meh" but I understand why the WSJ published it.
3. I find the OP spin and vitriol a poor tribute to General Giap. Given how much General Giap gave to his nation, a tribute aimed at using the General as a springing off point to throw muck is poor form.
4. I have at the moment no pithy remark in Viet Nam's tongue to offer. I work with five men whose family came over from Viet Nam in the 70's in part to avoid the joys of the re-education camps. I could ask them to provide me one such pithy line but I won't. You may not be surprised to learn that these men love America in a way that many born here cannot fathom.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 15th Oct 2013 at 14:20.
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Giap was successful because he really understood his enemies and their strengths & weaknesses
He'd worked in the west and studied military history in depth
His aim was NEVER to meet the enemy in a battle where they could use their strengths - if necessary, wait, retire, retreat until he could fight the battle HE wanted
I just wish I thought we had a few like him around as SO's in our forces
He'd worked in the west and studied military history in depth
His aim was NEVER to meet the enemy in a battle where they could use their strengths - if necessary, wait, retire, retreat until he could fight the battle HE wanted
I just wish I thought we had a few like him around as SO's in our forces
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How about "No,"?
The old time circuses usually had a sideshow, a row of tents on the side, hence the name. The side show had the bearded lady, the fat lady, the tattooed lady, the contortionist... and sometimes the geek, an unschooled unfortunate whose schtick was bite the head off a live chicken; that was attention-getting but not terribly witty.
But that was just the side show, not really what we came to see, what happened in the Big Top!
General Giap... well, I guess he belongs in the Big Top, since he was one hell of a military man. Maybe he was not so hot when it came to humanitarian values, but then we ourselves might come up a bit lacking there when it comes to the Vietnam War, what with My Lai and all. (There's not much point in relativizing atrocities, although it's tempting to try.)
Jane seems to want to play some combination of the bearded lady, the contortionist, and the geek; I couldn't possibly say for certain what that strange trip of his/hers is about. But, anyway, it's just someone for the sideshow, nothing for the Big Top. So, Hurry, hurry! Right this way, for the main attraction!
But that was just the side show, not really what we came to see, what happened in the Big Top!
General Giap... well, I guess he belongs in the Big Top, since he was one hell of a military man. Maybe he was not so hot when it came to humanitarian values, but then we ourselves might come up a bit lacking there when it comes to the Vietnam War, what with My Lai and all. (There's not much point in relativizing atrocities, although it's tempting to try.)
Jane seems to want to play some combination of the bearded lady, the contortionist, and the geek; I couldn't possibly say for certain what that strange trip of his/hers is about. But, anyway, it's just someone for the sideshow, nothing for the Big Top. So, Hurry, hurry! Right this way, for the main attraction!
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How about: 'Stop playing hard to get'?
Chuks, honey (I feel I can call you 'honey'; we're past the stage where we care what the others think) what you flown?
As in 'flown in real life', not 'flown in your mind's eye' or 'flown in a computer game'.
Chuks, honey (I feel I can call you 'honey'; we're past the stage where we care what the others think) what you flown?
As in 'flown in real life', not 'flown in your mind's eye' or 'flown in a computer game'.
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Don't take my word for it!
Ask SASless. He can tell you.
As to that other thing, using any terms of endearment... You should ask my wife for permission to do that, but you better brush up on your German first, and stand well back. She might turn you into a grease spot.
As to that other thing, using any terms of endearment... You should ask my wife for permission to do that, but you better brush up on your German first, and stand well back. She might turn you into a grease spot.
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Lonewolf 50: (where do these names come from?)
The polite term for your chums is Việt Kiều - if you pronounce it Viet Q you'll be near enough. However, they're rarely called that inside VN. I'll spare you the details of what they are called.
I'm sure they do love life in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Personally, I hope they remain there.
Chuks:
I'm asking you. And of course I'll take your word for it. What would be the point in lying? This is only fun if you tell the truth.
The reason I ask is because you and West-thingy remind me of the Americans I meet, therefore it would be nice to understand a little of your background, 'cos I think I already get your sense of humour :-)
Anyway, I can't ask SAS. He thinks I'm a beastly Communist. Please don't tell him the truth. He lives in a world populated entirely by stereotypes. Best leave him there in peace, reliving the battle of An Lộc for the 13,457th time.
Go get 'em, 1st Airborne!!!!
The polite term for your chums is Việt Kiều - if you pronounce it Viet Q you'll be near enough. However, they're rarely called that inside VN. I'll spare you the details of what they are called.
I'm sure they do love life in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Personally, I hope they remain there.
Chuks:
I'm asking you. And of course I'll take your word for it. What would be the point in lying? This is only fun if you tell the truth.
The reason I ask is because you and West-thingy remind me of the Americans I meet, therefore it would be nice to understand a little of your background, 'cos I think I already get your sense of humour :-)
Anyway, I can't ask SAS. He thinks I'm a beastly Communist. Please don't tell him the truth. He lives in a world populated entirely by stereotypes. Best leave him there in peace, reliving the battle of An Lộc for the 13,457th time.
Go get 'em, 1st Airborne!!!!
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One boys story
My brother had his marble drawn for the draft, but was rejected on medical grounds due to breaking his leg in a motorcycle accident, and being left with what the medical profession had told him was a permanent limp. Not to be outdone, he spent 18 months making a monthly 500 mile bus trip to receive specialist physiotherapy treatment. The Army accepted him, and following basic training he volunteered for infantry, in order to be at the sharp end.
A few months prior to the end of his in country tour he lost his life in a firefight with elements of D445.
HJ, I invite you to post something that I might copy and hang on the wall in his memory. Something in your usual style, irreverent, ridiculing, and offensive.
PS: Wholigan, please let the boy have his head in this instance, I'm a big boy.
A few months prior to the end of his in country tour he lost his life in a firefight with elements of D445.
HJ, I invite you to post something that I might copy and hang on the wall in his memory. Something in your usual style, irreverent, ridiculing, and offensive.
PS: Wholigan, please let the boy have his head in this instance, I'm a big boy.
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Brian:
Happy to do so. In my normal style.
Your brother died in a foreign land fighting for something he felt to be right.
I think he was wrong. But in saying that, I don't intend to diminish his personal courage or the pride in which you clearly, and rightly, hold his memory.
He's been denied the opportunity to grow old, to debate the issues, to visit the country and to talk to the people. If you feel angry about that - and I certainly would were he my brother - then I would direct my anger at those who sent him there, those who told him it was necessary. It wasn't.
Every year we pay respects to the 'Wandering Souls'. Those who died violently, or far from home, or who have yet to pass onto the next stage of existence. Without a doubt, your brothers soul will have been prayed for by the very people he fought.
So if you'd like to copy and paste something on your wall, copy this; a Vietnamese saying, in English, for your brother;
Life is a temporary stop, death the journey home.
Now, let him rest.
Happy to do so. In my normal style.
Your brother died in a foreign land fighting for something he felt to be right.
I think he was wrong. But in saying that, I don't intend to diminish his personal courage or the pride in which you clearly, and rightly, hold his memory.
He's been denied the opportunity to grow old, to debate the issues, to visit the country and to talk to the people. If you feel angry about that - and I certainly would were he my brother - then I would direct my anger at those who sent him there, those who told him it was necessary. It wasn't.
Every year we pay respects to the 'Wandering Souls'. Those who died violently, or far from home, or who have yet to pass onto the next stage of existence. Without a doubt, your brothers soul will have been prayed for by the very people he fought.
So if you'd like to copy and paste something on your wall, copy this; a Vietnamese saying, in English, for your brother;
Life is a temporary stop, death the journey home.
Now, let him rest.
There are multiple threads on these forums where people explain where their nicknames come from. The Search Function is your friend.
I'm sure they'll be happy to call you a **** right back.
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be. The Viet Namese diaspora I've met are good people. They work hard and appreciate the freedom to practice their religion, or to practice no religion, without the "by your leave" of the State, nor the interference of the Minions of Mao who infected your land like a cancer.
Getting the Americans to leave Viet Nam in '75 hardly cleared out the foreign influence.
Me, I'm glad that the US and Viet Nam are warming up to one another after that nasty war. In time, wounds can heal when one's heart is in it. It helps when we have a common interest, which includes rivalry/suspicion of VN's neighbor to the north.
The depressing lack of appreciation for freedom demonstrated by those who rolled South is well recorded in bloody-handed history.
One hopes that in time that can be corrected from within.
The polite term for your chums is Việt Kiều - if you pronounce it Viet Q you'll be near enough. However, they're rarely called that inside VN. I'll spare you the details of what they are called.
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be. The Viet Namese diaspora I've met are good people. They work hard and appreciate the freedom to practice their religion, or to practice no religion, without the "by your leave" of the State, nor the interference of the Minions of Mao who infected your land like a cancer.
Getting the Americans to leave Viet Nam in '75 hardly cleared out the foreign influence.
Me, I'm glad that the US and Viet Nam are warming up to one another after that nasty war. In time, wounds can heal when one's heart is in it. It helps when we have a common interest, which includes rivalry/suspicion of VN's neighbor to the north.
I'm sure they do love life in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Personally, I hope they remain there.
One hopes that in time that can be corrected from within.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 15th Oct 2013 at 20:25.
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Lonewolf:
The Search Function is your friend.
But I was asking you. Are you not my friend?
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be.
Yes. Sure. Pop along and visit the Vietnamese community back of Market in SF. Ask them how they feel about American freedoms. If you get out alive you can tell me.
...the interference of the Minions of Mao who infected your land like a cancer.
I'm not going to argue with that observation. We have a long history with the Chinese. None of it good.
It helps when we have a common interest
We don't. Do you take us for fools? You want us as a buffer state against the Chinese. Somewhere you can fight a proxy war, should the need arise.
Sure, we'll talk. Go through the motions of friendship. But we remember how you deserted our southern brothers.
You seem to have the regrettable habit of bailing on your friends. One could even say, 'Of running away'. You're still doing it.
I think that will always be in the forefront of our minds when dealing with Americans.
The Search Function is your friend.
But I was asking you. Are you not my friend?
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be.
Yes. Sure. Pop along and visit the Vietnamese community back of Market in SF. Ask them how they feel about American freedoms. If you get out alive you can tell me.
...the interference of the Minions of Mao who infected your land like a cancer.
I'm not going to argue with that observation. We have a long history with the Chinese. None of it good.
It helps when we have a common interest
We don't. Do you take us for fools? You want us as a buffer state against the Chinese. Somewhere you can fight a proxy war, should the need arise.
Sure, we'll talk. Go through the motions of friendship. But we remember how you deserted our southern brothers.
You seem to have the regrettable habit of bailing on your friends. One could even say, 'Of running away'. You're still doing it.
I think that will always be in the forefront of our minds when dealing with Americans.
Over here, these folks have the freedom to be whomever they want to be.
Yes. Sure. Pop along and visit the Vietnamese community back of Market in SF. Ask them how they feel about American freedoms. If you get out alive you can tell me.
Big cities can be rough on everyone, my cousin included. Navy Vet, and not what one would call rich. Closer to "just getting by day to day." EDIT: If these folks in that hood don't like their freedoms, they are free to ******* leave. That too is a freedom we enjoy over here.
It helps when we have a common interest
We don't.
I see that you can look no further than the end of you nose. How disappointing. That interest is shared with some of your local neighbors as well.
Do you take us for fools? You want us as a buffer state against the Chinese. Somewhere you can fight a proxy war, should the need arise.
NO, you aren't even close with your assessment.
Sure, we'll talk. Go through the motions of friendship. But we remember how you deserted our southern brothers.
About 20 years ago, President Clinton tried to reach out with a hand, not a fist. Despite a lot of pushback within our own country against that, Senator McCain whom you chose to trash with your OP/spin regurgitation, was on side with President Clinton with "we need to heal our poisoned relationship."
It wasn't all realpolitik (though I am sure there was an element of that). Some of it was a genuine human interest in having a better relationship. Clinton also tried to warm things up with Iran. He made, at best, modest progress, which has since been lost. Oh well, we can try again, and try to be patient.
You seem to have the regrettable habit of bailing on your friends. One could even say, 'Of running away'. You're still doing it.
I think that will always be in the forefront of our minds when dealing with Americans.
Your call.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 15th Oct 2013 at 20:29.
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I'm bored now. And my mommy says I have to stop playing on this computer and talking with strange men. So I'm going to have my chocolate milk and get tucked into bed.
If you're around tomorrow you can ask my mommy if I'm allowed out to play. If the man with the keys agrees, they'll unlock the chains and I can type... oh... MILLIONS of words!
Night night, God bless all.
HJ.
If you're around tomorrow you can ask my mommy if I'm allowed out to play. If the man with the keys agrees, they'll unlock the chains and I can type... oh... MILLIONS of words!
Night night, God bless all.
HJ.
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Hi Hanoi Jane
I think that McCain’s youthful misdemeanour’s while unfortunate are at least well known. I guess it comes from the transparency required to have a tilt at the leadership of one of the world’s greatest democracies.
I would like to see a serious assessment of Giap’s legacy in the same way; and with the same serious scrutiny that McCain was subjected to, perhaps you are the perfect person to ask.
Can you explain why Ho Chi Minh apologised to Ngo Dinh Diem for the death of his brother Ngo Dinh Khoi? Can you explain why he was killed, the manner of the execution and Giap’s culpability in the matter?
Can you explain why the French lost 2,000 KIA at the battle of Dien Bien Phu, but the death toll of the Prisoners of war that they took in the months afterward were four times that number? 8,000 French and Vietnamese POW’s died while in the care of General Giap in just a few short months. General Homma was executed by firing squad in 1946 for the Bataan Death march. Can you try and explain the similarity or difference between the war crimes of Generals Homma and Giap?
Can you explain General Giap’s role in the ‘Land reform measures’ of 1955-56 in which roving tribunals were sent to villages and hamlets with a quota of landlords and rich peasants to kill that resulted in the deaths of 283,000 of your countrymen in that time period. I’m particularly interested in your explanation of Giap’s decision to send the 325th Division to quell the Quynh Luu revolt in November of 1956. I’d specifically like to know why Giap chose to use the 325th Division which was raised from the same province Nghe Anh? Why was it do you think that this was the last instance that Giap actually had troops under his command?
Can you explain the events of the 1959 plenum when the politburo was split between those who wished to ‘develop the north’ and those that favoured ‘revolution in the South’ which faction did Giap belong to? Did he in fact seek the wider war that he seems to get so much credit for winning?
Can you explain the factional split regarding the Tet offensive of 1968? Was Giap in favour of the offensive – if not why not? Why did Giap choose a defacto exile in Hungary before the offensive commenced? That seems like remarkably unusual behaviour for someone who is given such credit for a magnificent victory, at least in the Western press.
Can you explain why Giap is considered a military genius? Can you point to any specific innovation, or marvellous tactical or strategic success he enjoyed? This point confuses me because I often see claims for his military genius, but no specific example is ever provided. It is quite perplexing really.
Thanks for helping me out.
Regards
Mick
I think that McCain’s youthful misdemeanour’s while unfortunate are at least well known. I guess it comes from the transparency required to have a tilt at the leadership of one of the world’s greatest democracies.
I would like to see a serious assessment of Giap’s legacy in the same way; and with the same serious scrutiny that McCain was subjected to, perhaps you are the perfect person to ask.
Can you explain why Ho Chi Minh apologised to Ngo Dinh Diem for the death of his brother Ngo Dinh Khoi? Can you explain why he was killed, the manner of the execution and Giap’s culpability in the matter?
Can you explain why the French lost 2,000 KIA at the battle of Dien Bien Phu, but the death toll of the Prisoners of war that they took in the months afterward were four times that number? 8,000 French and Vietnamese POW’s died while in the care of General Giap in just a few short months. General Homma was executed by firing squad in 1946 for the Bataan Death march. Can you try and explain the similarity or difference between the war crimes of Generals Homma and Giap?
Can you explain General Giap’s role in the ‘Land reform measures’ of 1955-56 in which roving tribunals were sent to villages and hamlets with a quota of landlords and rich peasants to kill that resulted in the deaths of 283,000 of your countrymen in that time period. I’m particularly interested in your explanation of Giap’s decision to send the 325th Division to quell the Quynh Luu revolt in November of 1956. I’d specifically like to know why Giap chose to use the 325th Division which was raised from the same province Nghe Anh? Why was it do you think that this was the last instance that Giap actually had troops under his command?
Can you explain the events of the 1959 plenum when the politburo was split between those who wished to ‘develop the north’ and those that favoured ‘revolution in the South’ which faction did Giap belong to? Did he in fact seek the wider war that he seems to get so much credit for winning?
Can you explain the factional split regarding the Tet offensive of 1968? Was Giap in favour of the offensive – if not why not? Why did Giap choose a defacto exile in Hungary before the offensive commenced? That seems like remarkably unusual behaviour for someone who is given such credit for a magnificent victory, at least in the Western press.
Can you explain why Giap is considered a military genius? Can you point to any specific innovation, or marvellous tactical or strategic success he enjoyed? This point confuses me because I often see claims for his military genius, but no specific example is ever provided. It is quite perplexing really.
Thanks for helping me out.
Regards
Mick
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Thunderbirds-are-go:
A stunningly accurate observation. I feel this should be my final post on this topic.
(Sighs of relief resound throughout the Internet...)
A stunningly accurate observation. I feel this should be my final post on this topic.
(Sighs of relief resound throughout the Internet...)
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Greatest cop out in the short history of the internet.
I’ve some easier questions if you prefer.
Post 1975, how many members of the victorious ‘National Liberation Front’ were given ministerial positions in the unified government?
You would expect that Uncle Ho’s right hand man and victorious General Giap would hold an exceptionally senior cabinet position in the newly unified government. What position did he actually hold?
The actual architect of the 1968 Tet offensive General Tran Van Tra was extremely critical of its conduct and the interference and meddling he received from Hanoi. He wrote of this experience in his 1982 memoirs. What happened to him?
Any time you are ready.
Cheers
Mick.
I’ve some easier questions if you prefer.
Post 1975, how many members of the victorious ‘National Liberation Front’ were given ministerial positions in the unified government?
You would expect that Uncle Ho’s right hand man and victorious General Giap would hold an exceptionally senior cabinet position in the newly unified government. What position did he actually hold?
The actual architect of the 1968 Tet offensive General Tran Van Tra was extremely critical of its conduct and the interference and meddling he received from Hanoi. He wrote of this experience in his 1982 memoirs. What happened to him?
Any time you are ready.
Cheers
Mick.
melmothtw: most of us bored of this a while back
melmothtw: my chuckling at your comments
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 16th Oct 2013 at 09:42.