One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)
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Originally Posted by Hanoijane
There's an 'Aviation History' category for these guys.
As for your post:
Aviation - no.
History - more like twisted propoganda.
Dislike. History - more like twisted propoganda.
Signed,
Serving military aircrew.
Take it somewhere else.
Everyone has a position on history depending on which side they are from. Those with sensitive dispositions are advised not to visit the war museum in Ho Chi Minh (Saigon) which is owned by the victors. The fact that US dog tags are for sale in the museum shop is slightly sobering. The second indo-china war is known as the American war to differentiate it from the first, which was the French war.
American's are also advised not to take the opportunity to go shooting with the Vietnamese army at Cu Chi. Every time you fire a shot from your AK47, the weapons instructor shouts ''One American!"
American's are also advised not to take the opportunity to go shooting with the Vietnamese army at Cu Chi. Every time you fire a shot from your AK47, the weapons instructor shouts ''One American!"
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 13th Oct 2013 at 02:48. Reason: spilling
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Love HJs bit of comparing which side was the worse in the treatment of the opposite side. Recall driving into Ben Tre to see a gentleman hanging by his ankles from the arch way at the entrance to the city. Had been disembowelled with the entrails hanging to the ground. Was the city chief it turned out and Charlie had payed him a visit during the night to turn him to their side. Refused so the beating heart was cut from his nine year old sons chest and attempt made to force the gent to eat it. Refused so above treatment followed.
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Oh god, another one. Hi, Brian.
Thank you for your war story. It's added a great deal to the debate. In fact, it's totally made me rethink my position.
I now see that everyone in Viet Nam in 1967 holding views opposing your own was indeed a rabid communist whose sole pleasure in life came through practicing some form of unimaginable cruelty on their opponents.
I must thank you for taking the time out your late-teen years to pop over there and teach those horrid people the true meaning of civilised democracy. And I'm confident that, when Viet Nam comes to its senses as a nation, it will thank you too.
In the meantime, please feel free to regale us with more war stories. Could you tell us how you spent your off-duty hours passing toy fluffy bunnies to the grateful masses, while simultaneously doing your flight planning for a sneak attack on Ho Chi Minh's private toilet? Or how you scared the living daylights out of an entire NVA regiment simply by singing a rousing chorus of 'Waltzing Matilda' in a rough and manly voice?
I'm on the edge of my seat...
Thank you for your war story. It's added a great deal to the debate. In fact, it's totally made me rethink my position.
I now see that everyone in Viet Nam in 1967 holding views opposing your own was indeed a rabid communist whose sole pleasure in life came through practicing some form of unimaginable cruelty on their opponents.
I must thank you for taking the time out your late-teen years to pop over there and teach those horrid people the true meaning of civilised democracy. And I'm confident that, when Viet Nam comes to its senses as a nation, it will thank you too.
In the meantime, please feel free to regale us with more war stories. Could you tell us how you spent your off-duty hours passing toy fluffy bunnies to the grateful masses, while simultaneously doing your flight planning for a sneak attack on Ho Chi Minh's private toilet? Or how you scared the living daylights out of an entire NVA regiment simply by singing a rousing chorus of 'Waltzing Matilda' in a rough and manly voice?
I'm on the edge of my seat...
Last edited by hanoijane; 13th Oct 2013 at 16:31. Reason: Spelling. It's always spelling... :-(
I kinda quite like you HJ, not that you care I'm sure. I can see how you completely wind some people up but, despite some of your posts, you do have the ability to amuse.
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hanoijane ..... very smart you may be, but I have to warn you that you are getting very close to the line of what is OK and what is not, in terms of deliberate provocation and winding up.
Furthermore, you claim that people writing about their personal experience is not adding to the debate, and please don't try to claim that "Thank you for your war story. It's added a great deal to the debate. In fact, it's totally made me rethink my position" is anything other than such a claim). You then proceed to ridicule what they have said and ridicule what you assume they will say and even ridicule their nationality, and I'm not quite clear how that is "adding to the debate"!
Please stop doing this and use your undoubted skill and talent to debate without sh1t-stirring and provoking. Thank you.
Furthermore, you claim that people writing about their personal experience is not adding to the debate, and please don't try to claim that "Thank you for your war story. It's added a great deal to the debate. In fact, it's totally made me rethink my position" is anything other than such a claim). You then proceed to ridicule what they have said and ridicule what you assume they will say and even ridicule their nationality, and I'm not quite clear how that is "adding to the debate"!
Please stop doing this and use your undoubted skill and talent to debate without sh1t-stirring and provoking. Thank you.
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Wholigan:
Tránh voi chẳng xấu mặt nào.
There are two ways to debate. Rational argument or ridicule.
When rational argument fails, I turn to ridicule. If ridicule fails to bring the miscreant to his/her senses, I walk away.
During my brief and somewhat infrequent visits to the site I have been singularly unimpressed by the quality of argument presented by 90% of posters. You want examples? The F35 thread. It reads like a cross between a manufactures video promotion site and a schoolboys wet dream about 'fighter planes'. The occasional rational intervention disappears into the morass. Yet it's a serious issue, right? Meant to be the subject of serious and considered debate?
You suggest I ridicule a posters nationality, yet you expect me to sit idly by while these same contributor besmirches my countrymen? You suggest I 'sh1t stir' when contributors post one-sided videos or express their political views, yet you seek to deny me the right to challenge these views in open debate?
I present ALTERNATIVE ARGUMENTS to those widely held here. If that's too much for you and your contributors to cope with, just say. I can spend my time elsewhere.
But isn't it ironic that a forum allegedly composed of the defenders of personal freedom should seek to limit or restrain the ability of those holding opposing views to express those views, and to do so in the style and language in which the vast majority of the forum also contributes?
Perhaps I've been fortunate. Until now, my 'smartness' has always been seen as an asset when dealing with members of the Western military. They seem well able to cope with honest (or blunt) observations. Why can't you?
Tránh voi chẳng xấu mặt nào.
There are two ways to debate. Rational argument or ridicule.
When rational argument fails, I turn to ridicule. If ridicule fails to bring the miscreant to his/her senses, I walk away.
During my brief and somewhat infrequent visits to the site I have been singularly unimpressed by the quality of argument presented by 90% of posters. You want examples? The F35 thread. It reads like a cross between a manufactures video promotion site and a schoolboys wet dream about 'fighter planes'. The occasional rational intervention disappears into the morass. Yet it's a serious issue, right? Meant to be the subject of serious and considered debate?
You suggest I ridicule a posters nationality, yet you expect me to sit idly by while these same contributor besmirches my countrymen? You suggest I 'sh1t stir' when contributors post one-sided videos or express their political views, yet you seek to deny me the right to challenge these views in open debate?
I present ALTERNATIVE ARGUMENTS to those widely held here. If that's too much for you and your contributors to cope with, just say. I can spend my time elsewhere.
But isn't it ironic that a forum allegedly composed of the defenders of personal freedom should seek to limit or restrain the ability of those holding opposing views to express those views, and to do so in the style and language in which the vast majority of the forum also contributes?
Perhaps I've been fortunate. Until now, my 'smartness' has always been seen as an asset when dealing with members of the Western military. They seem well able to cope with honest (or blunt) observations. Why can't you?
Last edited by hanoijane; 13th Oct 2013 at 19:43.
HJ
It is also ironic that if you upset the moderators on here you will just be banned for a while...in certain other countries if you criticise the miltary or government then the punishment would be a little more harsh
rgds LR
It is also ironic that if you upset the moderators on here you will just be banned for a while...in certain other countries if you criticise the miltary or government then the punishment would be a little more harsh
rgds LR
Jane
There's a credibility gap between the level of intelligence you claim and your postings here.
You infer you have the ear of the western military. If true it's because of rational persuasive argument, rising far above the level of what you post here.
There's a credibility gap between the level of intelligence you claim and your postings here.
You infer you have the ear of the western military. If true it's because of rational persuasive argument, rising far above the level of what you post here.
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I listened to Gen. Giaps obituary this evening on BBC Four.
Nicely done, warts and all.
Clearly, had this guy been one of ours, he'd have been recognised as a military genius.
My Daughters' been asked to do a short lecture on 'military history', and she's chosen Giap. probably influenced by her recent visit to Da Nang.
She told me that she can't find much on him....
For a guy who won the French war, and then followed it up by winning ' the American war'.......
I guess history isn't always written by the winners.
Poor.
Nicely done, warts and all.
Clearly, had this guy been one of ours, he'd have been recognised as a military genius.
My Daughters' been asked to do a short lecture on 'military history', and she's chosen Giap. probably influenced by her recent visit to Da Nang.
She told me that she can't find much on him....
For a guy who won the French war, and then followed it up by winning ' the American war'.......
I guess history isn't always written by the winners.
Poor.
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Atom
" She told me that she can't find much on him...."
I would suggest she start with the Wiki entry for him because as much
as everyone criticises Wikipedia, it does give links and references to
better sources.
Because he fought for so long and across various campaigns, I think
his military history is going to need to be pieced together by hand
from the various sources.
ie In the wiki entry, all the major wars / campaigns are mentioned
but then someone would need to delve into those to extract where
his influence was.
Juts my HO.
" She told me that she can't find much on him...."
I would suggest she start with the Wiki entry for him because as much
as everyone criticises Wikipedia, it does give links and references to
better sources.
Because he fought for so long and across various campaigns, I think
his military history is going to need to be pieced together by hand
from the various sources.
ie In the wiki entry, all the major wars / campaigns are mentioned
but then someone would need to delve into those to extract where
his influence was.
Juts my HO.
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hanoijane - I'm not debating with you, I'm merely telling you the rules by which we all have to abide in here. If you think someone is not abiding by those rules, you report the fact to the moderators and they deal with it. You do not resort to breaking the rules yourself.
You may decide that you like to use ridicule in your "debates", but it is not permitted in here, because it is a form of deliberate provocation the way you use it, and deliberate provocation causes threads to descend into a personal war shambles whereupon they get closed or deleted, serving nobody's intended purpose.
The fact that you "have been singularly unimpressed by the quality of argument presented by 90% of posters" etc does not release you from following the rules.
"You suggest I ridicule a posters nationality, yet you expect me to sit idly by while these same contributor besmirches my countrymen." No, I expect you to report anything with which you are unhappy to the moderators.
I do NOT "seek to deny me the right to challenge these views in open debate". I seek to get you to challenge them without resorting to ridicule and deliberate provocation etc.
"They seem well able to cope with honest (or blunt) observations. Why can't you?" Quite frankly, I really don't mind (or care) what observations you make or which side of any debate anybody is on. I most certainly can personally cope with such observations, but that is not what we are talking about here. My job is to keep threads civilized and running within the rules and that is what I shall do.
I merely gave you a gentle warning in a civilized manner that you were close to transgressing the forum rules with your posts. You seem to have reacted with an attack on me. I repeat my earlier request that you find a different method of debating in here.
If you still don't like the rules then please feel free to "spend my time elsewhere", but I'd rather you stayed and acted within the forum rules, because - as you say - you have views that are opposed to those held by a lot of people in here and it is healthy to have the differences aired.
(PS: I didn't see any elephants.
)
You may decide that you like to use ridicule in your "debates", but it is not permitted in here, because it is a form of deliberate provocation the way you use it, and deliberate provocation causes threads to descend into a personal war shambles whereupon they get closed or deleted, serving nobody's intended purpose.
The fact that you "have been singularly unimpressed by the quality of argument presented by 90% of posters" etc does not release you from following the rules.
"You suggest I ridicule a posters nationality, yet you expect me to sit idly by while these same contributor besmirches my countrymen." No, I expect you to report anything with which you are unhappy to the moderators.
I do NOT "seek to deny me the right to challenge these views in open debate". I seek to get you to challenge them without resorting to ridicule and deliberate provocation etc.
"They seem well able to cope with honest (or blunt) observations. Why can't you?" Quite frankly, I really don't mind (or care) what observations you make or which side of any debate anybody is on. I most certainly can personally cope with such observations, but that is not what we are talking about here. My job is to keep threads civilized and running within the rules and that is what I shall do.
I merely gave you a gentle warning in a civilized manner that you were close to transgressing the forum rules with your posts. You seem to have reacted with an attack on me. I repeat my earlier request that you find a different method of debating in here.
If you still don't like the rules then please feel free to "spend my time elsewhere", but I'd rather you stayed and acted within the forum rules, because - as you say - you have views that are opposed to those held by a lot of people in here and it is healthy to have the differences aired.
(PS: I didn't see any elephants.
)
I kinda quite like you HJ, not that you care I'm sure. I can see how you completely wind some people up but, despite some of your posts, you do have the ability to amuse
PS: Wholigan, you're not the Pprune police.
Last edited by melmothtw; 14th Oct 2013 at 07:10.
Oh yes he is.
Quote:
PS: Wholigan, you're not the PPRuNe police.
Oh yes he is.
Regards, Den.
PS: Wholigan, you're not the PPRuNe police.
Oh yes he is. Regards, Den.
HJ can be 'provocative', but he's never abused anyone or been unneccessarily nasty. I'm one of a number of people here who actually find the guy really rather funny, and who think that PPruNe would be a duller place without him.
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Wholigan:
I'm not debating with you either. I've offered you an explanation of why I write in manner I choose, that's all.
I have no intention of modifying my writing style to fit in here, nor of resorting to a higher authority when I come across individuals expressing sentiments I consider offensive. I can deal with them myself. Thus it appears my time here is limited to this one post.
I should like to use it to thank those who have enjoyed my posts and those who took the time to write to me off-forum. I wish you well.
To those perplexed, enraged or bored by my posts, I offer my apologies for being unable to express myself sufficiently well in your language to reach you. I did try.
Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember that this is the Internet, not real life. While no-one wishes to see a forum descend into anarchy, chaos or bad language, a 'good' forum is a broad church, one that restrains its characters through the strength of its contributors, not the random application of rules in the hands of one moderator.
Take care guys. Good luck to all.
I'm not debating with you either. I've offered you an explanation of why I write in manner I choose, that's all.
I have no intention of modifying my writing style to fit in here, nor of resorting to a higher authority when I come across individuals expressing sentiments I consider offensive. I can deal with them myself. Thus it appears my time here is limited to this one post.
I should like to use it to thank those who have enjoyed my posts and those who took the time to write to me off-forum. I wish you well.
To those perplexed, enraged or bored by my posts, I offer my apologies for being unable to express myself sufficiently well in your language to reach you. I did try.
Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember that this is the Internet, not real life. While no-one wishes to see a forum descend into anarchy, chaos or bad language, a 'good' forum is a broad church, one that restrains its characters through the strength of its contributors, not the random application of rules in the hands of one moderator.
Take care guys. Good luck to all.
Finally, Wholigan, I think you need to remember that this is the Internet, not real life. While no-one wishes to see a forum descend into anarchy, chaos or bad language, a 'good' forum is a broad church, one that restrains its characters through the strength of its contributors, not the random application of rules in the hands of one moderator.
hanoijane,
You are obviously well educated and erudite, but please don't forget that all internet fora are subject to some form of behaviour policing, whilst not condoning some of the moderation on pprune I understand that there is a need for it, and wholigan is one of the more enlightened ones
Don't leave just because you are upset at what you see as discrimination, it isn't
Regards, Den.
You are obviously well educated and erudite, but please don't forget that all internet fora are subject to some form of behaviour policing, whilst not condoning some of the moderation on pprune I understand that there is a need for it, and wholigan is one of the more enlightened ones
Don't leave just because you are upset at what you see as discrimination, it isn't
Regards, Den.
Jane
It may be the Internet, but also ain't the Wild West. You can and will be sanctioned. I should know.
It's their toy set and should you choose to stay here and indulge yourself in whatever escapism from your real persona, then simply chill out as the kids say.
You serve a purpose here, should you wish to remain here...well, you figure it out.
It may be the Internet, but also ain't the Wild West. You can and will be sanctioned. I should know.
It's their toy set and should you choose to stay here and indulge yourself in whatever escapism from your real persona, then simply chill out as the kids say.
You serve a purpose here, should you wish to remain here...well, you figure it out.