One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)
Stalin's as he said it at the Tehran conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war"
He couldn't have said that the allies would never have won the war, despite the claims of the likes of Time magazine, since the statement was made at Tehran in 1943, which - last time I looked - was some 18 months before the war in Europe ended and well before the war was won (Stalin was still harbouring doubts as to whether there would be a 2nd front).
What 'grinds our gears', WC, is the utter, unremitting 'rub your noses into it' attitude that many of our American friends adopt, particulary those (not you, lest there be any doubt) who seem to think that rather than have many thousands of deaths and serious injuries, we Brits sat back on our posteriors and decided to fight to the last American if necessary. We're not claiming to have won the war, merely to have played a fairly important part in it, especially between 1939 and 1942.
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I was raised on the usual liberal mindset of the early to mid 60's in Westport, Connecticut. Westport was home then, probably still is now, to people who were "anti-war," some to the point of being downright apologists for Stalin & Co. It was a given that we had provoked Stalin, that the USSR had defeated Nazi Germany at the cost of 20 million dead (a figure that later was shown to have included many people actually killed by Stalin & Co.) and had then flipped from being a monstrous dictatorship in the thrall of the cult of Stalin's personality to being some sort of warm and fuzzy ally in the war against German fascism... until, of course, we upset the Bear with our own beastliness.
Of course, on the other side, we did have those raving loons, the John Birch Society, who were convinced that some of our recent presidents, even, had been Commie stooges. That did not help much!
Viet Nam, for most of the people I went to school with, was an unprovoked war of aggression against simple peasants dressed in black pajamas and home-made sandals, and, a bit later, a dastardly plot by Lyndon Baines Johnson, simple-minded, cruel, Texas sh1t-kicker, to kill anyone who might have dropped out of Harvard or Yale or else simply wanted to be some sort of Trustafarian for a while, trying to find himself. (Having a close look in a nearby "place where the sun don't shine" would have been the shortest way to achieve that goal, finding oneself as a privileged suburbanite, but never mind that now. For many of my fellow Westporters, there was time and money a-plenty.)
The twists and turns of history are a funny thing... food for endless speculation and discussion, and always good for a wind-up. Of course, most US citizens have been handed a very different version of history from anything close to the truth, so that the simple truth can be enough to wind them up, something such as our late entry into, and rather minor role in, WWI. When, as here, it comes to some of the wilder distortions of history, laced with alarming success at being amazingly unpleasant, then it becomes a matter of "Light blue touch paper and stand well back."
I hope that the Mods leave poor Jane un-banned; simply leaving Jane ignored will truly grind his, her or its gears to the maximum amount possible, I bet.
Of course, on the other side, we did have those raving loons, the John Birch Society, who were convinced that some of our recent presidents, even, had been Commie stooges. That did not help much!
Viet Nam, for most of the people I went to school with, was an unprovoked war of aggression against simple peasants dressed in black pajamas and home-made sandals, and, a bit later, a dastardly plot by Lyndon Baines Johnson, simple-minded, cruel, Texas sh1t-kicker, to kill anyone who might have dropped out of Harvard or Yale or else simply wanted to be some sort of Trustafarian for a while, trying to find himself. (Having a close look in a nearby "place where the sun don't shine" would have been the shortest way to achieve that goal, finding oneself as a privileged suburbanite, but never mind that now. For many of my fellow Westporters, there was time and money a-plenty.)
The twists and turns of history are a funny thing... food for endless speculation and discussion, and always good for a wind-up. Of course, most US citizens have been handed a very different version of history from anything close to the truth, so that the simple truth can be enough to wind them up, something such as our late entry into, and rather minor role in, WWI. When, as here, it comes to some of the wilder distortions of history, laced with alarming success at being amazingly unpleasant, then it becomes a matter of "Light blue touch paper and stand well back."
I hope that the Mods leave poor Jane un-banned; simply leaving Jane ignored will truly grind his, her or its gears to the maximum amount possible, I bet.
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Poor Jane reporting for duty, Sir.
Not at all chucks, my little chum. For I have no gears to grid. I care little whether I'm read by a million or simply by my own eyes. The fun is in the writing.
How are you today? Have you calmed down yet? Or is your fear and loathing of anything vaguely c...c...c...communist still waking you up at night in a cold sweat? We're coming to get you, oh yes we are...
I see you've ventured into re-writing WWI and WWII. Excellent stuff! Golly, we'll have you on the field at Agincourt next, thrashing those left-wing Frenchies who were trying to usurp your Republican forebearers.
Tell me, was there ever a phase in your life (I'm guessing it was prior to your military indoctrination) where you were able to conduct a discussion without coming to it with your opinions fully formed?
I do understand the bitterness from one who was (allegedly) present during the American War. I too would be somewhat miffed if I'd seen my chums killed or maimed in what ultimately proved to be an entirely pointless war. But I would have hoped that time and logic would have assuaged your pain. Clearly not.
I suggest therapy. Either that, or rush out and purchase a never-ending supply of war comics where you can relive the majesty of your days thrashing the Communist hordes. Sounds like fun? I'm sure it does :-)
Not at all chucks, my little chum. For I have no gears to grid. I care little whether I'm read by a million or simply by my own eyes. The fun is in the writing.
How are you today? Have you calmed down yet? Or is your fear and loathing of anything vaguely c...c...c...communist still waking you up at night in a cold sweat? We're coming to get you, oh yes we are...
I see you've ventured into re-writing WWI and WWII. Excellent stuff! Golly, we'll have you on the field at Agincourt next, thrashing those left-wing Frenchies who were trying to usurp your Republican forebearers.
Tell me, was there ever a phase in your life (I'm guessing it was prior to your military indoctrination) where you were able to conduct a discussion without coming to it with your opinions fully formed?
I do understand the bitterness from one who was (allegedly) present during the American War. I too would be somewhat miffed if I'd seen my chums killed or maimed in what ultimately proved to be an entirely pointless war. But I would have hoped that time and logic would have assuaged your pain. Clearly not.
I suggest therapy. Either that, or rush out and purchase a never-ending supply of war comics where you can relive the majesty of your days thrashing the Communist hordes. Sounds like fun? I'm sure it does :-)
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To my friends...
It's chuks, Jane, not "chucks," but you can call me "Sir." (Attention to detail/not overlooking the bleedin' obvious: one of the marks of a well-trained journalist.)
It must be interesting, Jane, scuttling around in the dustbin of history chasing one's tail. I bet that the increasing number of tracks to follow makes one dream of really getting somewhere! Good luck with that; you are going to need it.
No idea what modern Viet Nam looks like, but the former DDR (East Germany), post-collapse... what a dump! Nobody there was "coming to get" anyone, just going from what was on show. It was quite reassuring, believe me.
Of course the Commie hordes had been there, for real, something like 16 thousand Russians with thousands of tanks, and, of course, their loyal German lackeys, the National Volks Armee but the internal contradictions of their failed Marxist-Leninist faith had kept them so busy just keeping the lid on the East German populace that they never had the chance to duke it out with the West. Hey, militarily, they might even have won, but politically, they never had a chance.
I bet that modern Viet Nam has its own troubles that way too, people finally understanding what they have signed up for: working in Western-owned sweatshops for hunger wages while the fat cats of the Party skim the cream. Not something that should trouble anyone posting here, of course. God forbid!
It must be interesting, Jane, scuttling around in the dustbin of history chasing one's tail. I bet that the increasing number of tracks to follow makes one dream of really getting somewhere! Good luck with that; you are going to need it.
No idea what modern Viet Nam looks like, but the former DDR (East Germany), post-collapse... what a dump! Nobody there was "coming to get" anyone, just going from what was on show. It was quite reassuring, believe me.
Of course the Commie hordes had been there, for real, something like 16 thousand Russians with thousands of tanks, and, of course, their loyal German lackeys, the National Volks Armee but the internal contradictions of their failed Marxist-Leninist faith had kept them so busy just keeping the lid on the East German populace that they never had the chance to duke it out with the West. Hey, militarily, they might even have won, but politically, they never had a chance.
I bet that modern Viet Nam has its own troubles that way too, people finally understanding what they have signed up for: working in Western-owned sweatshops for hunger wages while the fat cats of the Party skim the cream. Not something that should trouble anyone posting here, of course. God forbid!
It's chuks, Jane, not "chucks," but you can call me "Sir." (Attention to detail/not overlooking the bleedin' obvious: one of the marks of a well-trained journalist.)
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chooks, Sir,
I think I'm going to hug you. C'mon over here you big softie. You're so sweet. For sure you need the man-hug thing.
The only scuttling I've been doing today is scuttling around M&S to try to find something tasty for my dinner. I settled on salmon in flaky pastry. Sound good?
I was skimming this a few days ago;
http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~brad...04_nrn1323.pdf
and I immediately thought of you. It explains a lot. I actually started to feel bad about arguing with you. But the moment passed.
chaks, I would NEVER have guessed that you have, 'No idea what modern Viet Nam looks like', really I wouldn't. I'm pleased you feel that this complete lack of knowledge of the country is no bar to you expressing your opinions with an insight I find astounding.
In truth, I'm now convinced that on PPRuNe there's no real need to have any personal knowledge of anything. I can simply spout forth and hope no-one calls me on it. And if they do, I shall simply descend even further into rant-mode until everyone else shuffles off shaking their heads in wonder.
I think I should transfer my assets to the West. Clearly, Viet Nam is a seething cauldron of embittered shoe-factory workers just about to rise up in an Asian Autumn and hurl the beastly Communists from power. May I come live with you when this happens? I'll bring my own rice cooker!
chicks, please pass my kind regards to your wife. Lord knows, she has a great deal to put up with.
I hate ending sentences with 'with'. But sometimes they sound too clumsy otherwise.
melmothtw:
Thanks, but the original 'mistake' was deliberate :-)
I think I'm going to hug you. C'mon over here you big softie. You're so sweet. For sure you need the man-hug thing.
The only scuttling I've been doing today is scuttling around M&S to try to find something tasty for my dinner. I settled on salmon in flaky pastry. Sound good?
I was skimming this a few days ago;
http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~brad...04_nrn1323.pdf
and I immediately thought of you. It explains a lot. I actually started to feel bad about arguing with you. But the moment passed.
chaks, I would NEVER have guessed that you have, 'No idea what modern Viet Nam looks like', really I wouldn't. I'm pleased you feel that this complete lack of knowledge of the country is no bar to you expressing your opinions with an insight I find astounding.
In truth, I'm now convinced that on PPRuNe there's no real need to have any personal knowledge of anything. I can simply spout forth and hope no-one calls me on it. And if they do, I shall simply descend even further into rant-mode until everyone else shuffles off shaking their heads in wonder.
I think I should transfer my assets to the West. Clearly, Viet Nam is a seething cauldron of embittered shoe-factory workers just about to rise up in an Asian Autumn and hurl the beastly Communists from power. May I come live with you when this happens? I'll bring my own rice cooker!
chicks, please pass my kind regards to your wife. Lord knows, she has a great deal to put up with.
I hate ending sentences with 'with'. But sometimes they sound too clumsy otherwise.
melmothtw:
Thanks, but the original 'mistake' was deliberate :-)
Last edited by hanoijane; 23rd Oct 2013 at 15:40. Reason: Spelling, but not of cheks name...
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Chippy
Thanks for your book recommendations. I think you're correct in your evaluation of MacDonalds book on Giap. It's very 'close' to the man in question.
For me though, that's the appeal of the book. It's what Giap thought. From his perspective- as he saw it. Not a completely objective account.
And lets face it, the main facts - ie, how the two wars turned out are old news now.
We all know how it turned out for the French, and the US.....
Although amazingly, there are some who seem confused!
Thanks for your book recommendations. I think you're correct in your evaluation of MacDonalds book on Giap. It's very 'close' to the man in question.
For me though, that's the appeal of the book. It's what Giap thought. From his perspective- as he saw it. Not a completely objective account.
And lets face it, the main facts - ie, how the two wars turned out are old news now.
We all know how it turned out for the French, and the US.....
Although amazingly, there are some who seem confused!
Jane
You're welcome to come to the US. Many of your countrymen decided they didn't want to live under a repressive communist regime and moved here.
The upside for a journo is the taboo subject of criticizing the government in Vietnam is allowed here. Just think, a whole new facet to your profession you can explore. Instead of a joining the ranks of others in the re-education camps, you'll make a good living by doing it.
You're welcome to come to the US. Many of your countrymen decided they didn't want to live under a repressive communist regime and moved here.
The upside for a journo is the taboo subject of criticizing the government in Vietnam is allowed here. Just think, a whole new facet to your profession you can explore. Instead of a joining the ranks of others in the re-education camps, you'll make a good living by doing it.
Jane, not sure what your referring to. If it's your English language skills, then yes you've mastered the language.
That is if you are who you say you are.
That is if you are who you say you are.
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West Coast:
Thanks for the invite but I've already lived in America. I lived in SF, on Green, for about 6 months with a girl. It didn't end well for me, she ran off with another guy. This is the REAL reason why I hate Americans :-)
SF is a beautiful city. An amazing place to run - probably my favourite after Vientiane. I would run down Green onto Columbus, down to the bottom, then along and up that bloody hill by the park around the Fort, past the Marina and Crissy Field, up the steps to the bridge, then over the bridge into Marin, do a hilly loop, then return. Pretty much a perfect running route.
There was a little stationery store on Green where I was lectured for three hours solid by a lady on the Kennedy administration and how the world would have been a better place had he lived. The people in that city had such passion, whether it was over gay rights or letting their dogs **** on the grass. I loved them.
I find yelling at people in print (paper or digital) about politics to be counter productive if you're really trying to bring about change. Just look what happens on PPRuNe if you need evidence. If you and I sat together we'd learn things from each other and, perhaps, find some common ground. When people aren't face-to-face they simply repeat tired cliches and become obnoxious. Me too.
I'm paid - in part - to write, and I write to a market. It has nothing to do with my own views, which I prefer to keep to myself irrespective of where I live. I was here to obtain a certain perspective, which I did, and I'm happy to stay to have little chats, but not to defend a system in which I have no real interest against a system about which I care even less.
Now, may I tell you MIg stories, which you're free to disbelieve or admire as you see fit?
Thanks for the invite but I've already lived in America. I lived in SF, on Green, for about 6 months with a girl. It didn't end well for me, she ran off with another guy. This is the REAL reason why I hate Americans :-)
SF is a beautiful city. An amazing place to run - probably my favourite after Vientiane. I would run down Green onto Columbus, down to the bottom, then along and up that bloody hill by the park around the Fort, past the Marina and Crissy Field, up the steps to the bridge, then over the bridge into Marin, do a hilly loop, then return. Pretty much a perfect running route.
There was a little stationery store on Green where I was lectured for three hours solid by a lady on the Kennedy administration and how the world would have been a better place had he lived. The people in that city had such passion, whether it was over gay rights or letting their dogs **** on the grass. I loved them.
I find yelling at people in print (paper or digital) about politics to be counter productive if you're really trying to bring about change. Just look what happens on PPRuNe if you need evidence. If you and I sat together we'd learn things from each other and, perhaps, find some common ground. When people aren't face-to-face they simply repeat tired cliches and become obnoxious. Me too.
I'm paid - in part - to write, and I write to a market. It has nothing to do with my own views, which I prefer to keep to myself irrespective of where I live. I was here to obtain a certain perspective, which I did, and I'm happy to stay to have little chats, but not to defend a system in which I have no real interest against a system about which I care even less.
Now, may I tell you MIg stories, which you're free to disbelieve or admire as you see fit?
Jane
If they're stories about MIG, mig or MiGs of the modern era, then feel free to regale me with your imagination. The Vietnam war ended when I was 8.
San Francisco would make any communist feel right at home, the culture there is quite repressive of anyone with differing political views. I'll bet you felt comfy alright.
If they're stories about MIG, mig or MiGs of the modern era, then feel free to regale me with your imagination. The Vietnam war ended when I was 8.
San Francisco would make any communist feel right at home, the culture there is quite repressive of anyone with differing political views. I'll bet you felt comfy alright.
Last edited by West Coast; 23rd Oct 2013 at 17:15.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
PS, for those that don't know, the engagement ended with only one aircraft damaged.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 23rd Oct 2013 at 17:19.
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*sigh*
Why do you continue to be rude when I'm being nice? It's silly and reflects poorly on you, West Coast.
Pfffft, continuing here in the face of stupidity seems pointless.
Wholigan, please delete my account and ban anyone else from using my name. 'hanoijane' must forever remain a blot on your military aviation landscape :-)
HJ.
*click*
Why do you continue to be rude when I'm being nice? It's silly and reflects poorly on you, West Coast.
Pfffft, continuing here in the face of stupidity seems pointless.
Wholigan, please delete my account and ban anyone else from using my name. 'hanoijane' must forever remain a blot on your military aviation landscape :-)
HJ.
*click*
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The best laugh I have had from people who visit modern Viet Nam came from the one who asked me if I had ever seen the tunnels at Cu Chi. I simply told her that they were closed to visitors the whole time I was there.... SASless might have been there in the background, grinning at that little joke of mine, but I don't think she caught my drift.
I had one of my profs ask me exactly what it was I did during my time there. I just told him that it was "top-secret," which it was, and left it at that. That it was boring, frustrating and relatively unimportant work... I guess I left that part out. Always with the jokes, there, me, but then, seriously, it often seems to come down to "You had to have been there."
That same lack of comprehension goes for Jane, perhaps, since speaking Vietnamese did not come into it for us, aside from a few, mostly rude, words. Perhaps it should have, but it didn't! Here, Jane seems to have failed to connect with much of the target audience before flouncing off in disappointment, assuming even that act is real. Migs... hmph!
I had one of my profs ask me exactly what it was I did during my time there. I just told him that it was "top-secret," which it was, and left it at that. That it was boring, frustrating and relatively unimportant work... I guess I left that part out. Always with the jokes, there, me, but then, seriously, it often seems to come down to "You had to have been there."
That same lack of comprehension goes for Jane, perhaps, since speaking Vietnamese did not come into it for us, aside from a few, mostly rude, words. Perhaps it should have, but it didn't! Here, Jane seems to have failed to connect with much of the target audience before flouncing off in disappointment, assuming even that act is real. Migs... hmph!
Last edited by chuks; 23rd Oct 2013 at 17:54.
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Come on HJ.
Lets hear it from you!
The 'usual suspects' on here are truly the least interesting to debate with, but we all love a good flying story...
I've seen MiG-21s flying at Da Nang and they looked great- the original 'stealth' fighter. Also seen them close up and they are a lovely design.
What did you fly?
Lets hear it from you!
The 'usual suspects' on here are truly the least interesting to debate with, but we all love a good flying story...
I've seen MiG-21s flying at Da Nang and they looked great- the original 'stealth' fighter. Also seen them close up and they are a lovely design.
What did you fly?
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Get me some of what that man is smoking! I want some!
I got a real close look at a Nigerian Air Force MiG-21, sat there parked on the ramp at Kaduna one hot day when I had hours to kill waiting for my pax. "Crude" is about the only word for its workmanship. A goddam F-4 looks like an oil painting by comparison to that!
"More Russian junk" was all I could think after walking around it, looking at all the panel mismatches, although I suppose it is an effective weapon, yes. To call it "lovely," though....
Just what sort of "stealth" qualities are you thinking of, anyway? Is it that it is relatively small? That's about the only one I can think of off the top of my head, because I don't think "low observability" really comes into the design of the MiG-21.
What part of that post from Jane expressing contempt for argument based on fact (#42, "Empirical evidence and all that nonsense," probably misapplying something grabbed from Kuhn) did you fail to understand? There are good flying stories, and then there are BS stories; try and guess which sort is going to be on offer from this particular source. Well, if it's something "stealthy" you are after, okay, or perhaps that just means "slippery and evasive," when some of us do not seem to be able to tell the difference.
I got a real close look at a Nigerian Air Force MiG-21, sat there parked on the ramp at Kaduna one hot day when I had hours to kill waiting for my pax. "Crude" is about the only word for its workmanship. A goddam F-4 looks like an oil painting by comparison to that!
"More Russian junk" was all I could think after walking around it, looking at all the panel mismatches, although I suppose it is an effective weapon, yes. To call it "lovely," though....
Just what sort of "stealth" qualities are you thinking of, anyway? Is it that it is relatively small? That's about the only one I can think of off the top of my head, because I don't think "low observability" really comes into the design of the MiG-21.
What part of that post from Jane expressing contempt for argument based on fact (#42, "Empirical evidence and all that nonsense," probably misapplying something grabbed from Kuhn) did you fail to understand? There are good flying stories, and then there are BS stories; try and guess which sort is going to be on offer from this particular source. Well, if it's something "stealthy" you are after, okay, or perhaps that just means "slippery and evasive," when some of us do not seem to be able to tell the difference.
Last edited by chuks; 23rd Oct 2013 at 19:22.
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Oh Chooks, lighten up FFS!
As for the 'original stealth' ask someone from Fallon.
'Hard to see', 'tiny'. Almost impossible to see from dead ahead.
Like the F-4......
As for the 'original stealth' ask someone from Fallon.
'Hard to see', 'tiny'. Almost impossible to see from dead ahead.
Like the F-4......
Also like the F-5, a small visual profile as you approach the merge in BFM.
What did you fly, Atom?
EDIT:
For those unaware, the original "stealth" weapons system was the submarine. This point was brought to you by a Navy veteran.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 23rd Oct 2013 at 21:25.