One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)
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PN:
Without going into details of WHY I'm saying this, I hope you're writing down everything you know somewhere. It's amazingly interesting. Yes, not for a place / time such as PPRuNe / now, but in 30 years you'll be dead and twits like Michael will be making stuff up to suit their purposes.
For gods sake, write a bloody book.
Without going into details of WHY I'm saying this, I hope you're writing down everything you know somewhere. It's amazingly interesting. Yes, not for a place / time such as PPRuNe / now, but in 30 years you'll be dead and twits like Michael will be making stuff up to suit their purposes.
For gods sake, write a bloody book.
Jane
I suspect being quite boring is code for asking uncomfortable questions.
You wrote some wonderful propaganda for the central government. I hope it gets you the communist of the week award along with the associated jam and jelly prize.
Don't confuse or limit your scope of critical review to the market changes the the communist government has implemented. Your form of governance would go the way of the dodo bird if it hadn't emulated it's big brother in China. Do you have the right to demonstrate for the peaceful overthrow of the communist government? I'll defer to the UN (not an easy thing for me) they say no. Funny thing, I do. Be damned if it didn't work, Obama was elected anyway. I however did things under the name of political freedoms you never have, nor will ever do as long as the communists rule your land. I'm somewhat ashamed I take those freedoms for granted, forgetting there's million who don't enjoy that freedom. Shame on me.
As a journo in a communist country I can only imagine what you say and do is monitored closely by the government for evidence of dissent. So nothing you've said really comes as a surprise. I suppose it could be worse, you could be in North Korea, and a mouthpiece for that truly repressive regime rather than the largely benign (as long as you tow the line) communist government of Vietnam.
You have much work to do on the art of deflection, you're obviously uncomfortable when the political questions hit close to home. Should you choose to compare and contrast the political dissent allowed in our countries reletive to one another, you will come up short, far short. You have strained your credibility to the breaking point, but I'll play along if you wish to continue.
How 'bout we name a political dissident or perhaps we discuss your fav re-education camp?
I suspect being quite boring is code for asking uncomfortable questions.
You wrote some wonderful propaganda for the central government. I hope it gets you the communist of the week award along with the associated jam and jelly prize.
Don't confuse or limit your scope of critical review to the market changes the the communist government has implemented. Your form of governance would go the way of the dodo bird if it hadn't emulated it's big brother in China. Do you have the right to demonstrate for the peaceful overthrow of the communist government? I'll defer to the UN (not an easy thing for me) they say no. Funny thing, I do. Be damned if it didn't work, Obama was elected anyway. I however did things under the name of political freedoms you never have, nor will ever do as long as the communists rule your land. I'm somewhat ashamed I take those freedoms for granted, forgetting there's million who don't enjoy that freedom. Shame on me.
As a journo in a communist country I can only imagine what you say and do is monitored closely by the government for evidence of dissent. So nothing you've said really comes as a surprise. I suppose it could be worse, you could be in North Korea, and a mouthpiece for that truly repressive regime rather than the largely benign (as long as you tow the line) communist government of Vietnam.
You have much work to do on the art of deflection, you're obviously uncomfortable when the political questions hit close to home. Should you choose to compare and contrast the political dissent allowed in our countries reletive to one another, you will come up short, far short. You have strained your credibility to the breaking point, but I'll play along if you wish to continue.
How 'bout we name a political dissident or perhaps we discuss your fav re-education camp?
Last edited by West Coast; 21st Oct 2013 at 04:35.
West Coast I am not a communist and fully agree that all people have the right to democracy. However, Vietnam is successful because of Communism. During 2 holidays I have travelled extensively through the country. I travelled independantly with my wife and chose when and where to go. I was not monitered, I was not refused travel to any part of the country. I found the people gracious, friendly and more importantly happy. No one doubts that there is poverty there but then that is the case in most western countries including your own. The people generally have more than enough food and tend to have jobs. The only restriction they have in moving about the country is affordability. I am sure there is also crime and I have to admit their prisons are not where I would like to be. But again many countries of the world have dubious penal systems. I never felt unsafe at any time during our journey.
From my limited (because of my time and not any restriction) access to people most were happy with what there government is doing. When I visit the country of my birth the same cannot be said. Even where I now live in NZ not all are happy with there lot.
To sum it up Vietnam is a wonderfull country with problems but name me one country that is Utopia!!
From my limited (because of my time and not any restriction) access to people most were happy with what there government is doing. When I visit the country of my birth the same cannot be said. Even where I now live in NZ not all are happy with there lot.
To sum it up Vietnam is a wonderfull country with problems but name me one country that is Utopia!!
I'm sure Vietnam was all those things for you. I'm glad you enjoyed your holidays there.
As you correctly point out no country is without it's flaws. If I had to list my countries warts, it would be a long night for both of us. Difference between Jane and you and I is we can express my dissatisfaction without fear.
You seem in your argument to tie an affordable vacation as evidence of the success of communism. I've enjoyed vacations in many countries on the cheap that weren't communist, Mexico being my favorite, so please expand on your statement that Vietnam is successful BECAUSE of communism.
The party followed the communist playbook to the letter after the fall of SV and fiscally suffered. Only after emulating the concept of fiscal incentivtive noted in China has the nation prospered. The free market in Vietnam is becoming more and more tainted by capitalist mindset and associated incentive, that being something even our esteemed communist friend agrees with, so you'll understand if I need you to properly explain how repression breeds success. A cheap supply of always willing labor perhaps?
I've visited New Zealand in my military days. Stunningly beautiful visuals, the folks I encountered were all very pleasant, and the ladies with that accent drove all of us yanks crazy. What I didnt encounter there was any of the political dissatisfaction you note. Like you, I was on holidays. I had a great time and to boot, the government wasn't communist! Should I be lucky enough to visit again, besides fishing, I'll search out some of New Zealand's dissidents. Should be easy to find them. Vietnam's are easy to find as well, they're in jail.
As you correctly point out no country is without it's flaws. If I had to list my countries warts, it would be a long night for both of us. Difference between Jane and you and I is we can express my dissatisfaction without fear.
You seem in your argument to tie an affordable vacation as evidence of the success of communism. I've enjoyed vacations in many countries on the cheap that weren't communist, Mexico being my favorite, so please expand on your statement that Vietnam is successful BECAUSE of communism.
The party followed the communist playbook to the letter after the fall of SV and fiscally suffered. Only after emulating the concept of fiscal incentivtive noted in China has the nation prospered. The free market in Vietnam is becoming more and more tainted by capitalist mindset and associated incentive, that being something even our esteemed communist friend agrees with, so you'll understand if I need you to properly explain how repression breeds success. A cheap supply of always willing labor perhaps?
I've visited New Zealand in my military days. Stunningly beautiful visuals, the folks I encountered were all very pleasant, and the ladies with that accent drove all of us yanks crazy. What I didnt encounter there was any of the political dissatisfaction you note. Like you, I was on holidays. I had a great time and to boot, the government wasn't communist! Should I be lucky enough to visit again, besides fishing, I'll search out some of New Zealand's dissidents. Should be easy to find them. Vietnam's are easy to find as well, they're in jail.
Last edited by West Coast; 21st Oct 2013 at 04:36.
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Hanoi Jane I assume this is directed at me
“but in 30 years you'll be dead and twits like Michael will be making stuff up to suit their purposes.”
Please feel free to indicate anything that I have ‘made up’ as you claim?
Please feel free to correct any inaccuracies in my posts.
I say that Giap is the most over rated General of the 20th century. Again I ask for an example of tactical or strategic innovation he was responsible for. Neither you nor any of his other boosters here have provided one.
I say that Giap was a war criminal who went unpunished.
I say that Giap committed crimes against humanity in the land reform campaigns of 1955-56; his only punishment was to be condemned to irrelevance in the politburo and thus exercised no influence on the conduct of the American War.
I’ve also taken you to task regarding your tasteless comment regarding the refugees that fled the regime post 1975. The UNHCR tells us that in 1981 alone, 599 Vietnamese women were victims of rape in the South China Sea trying to escape communism. This to you is joke fodder.
You are a real classy guy.
The Vietnamese economy was so badly run in the period 1975 to 1985 that by 1988 remittances from these refugees constituted the single biggest source of foreign exchange. Ever since then the regime has been begging the Viet Kieu to return with their hard earned. If there is a joke in there somewhere - that is it.
The problem with Vietnamese is that they never stop to consider anyone else’s post colonial struggle for independence and how in the absence of communism things might have been different. In 1945 both Singapore and Vietnam were in dire economic straits as a result of the war. Both were governed by European colonists. Did you know that nowadays Singapore sends school groups to tour Vietnam so that their school kiddies can see what poverty looks like?
It is impossible to argue that the Vietnamese people could have been any worse off if they had followed any other path than the one the Lao Dong Party took them down.
“but in 30 years you'll be dead and twits like Michael will be making stuff up to suit their purposes.”
Please feel free to indicate anything that I have ‘made up’ as you claim?
Please feel free to correct any inaccuracies in my posts.
I say that Giap is the most over rated General of the 20th century. Again I ask for an example of tactical or strategic innovation he was responsible for. Neither you nor any of his other boosters here have provided one.
I say that Giap was a war criminal who went unpunished.
I say that Giap committed crimes against humanity in the land reform campaigns of 1955-56; his only punishment was to be condemned to irrelevance in the politburo and thus exercised no influence on the conduct of the American War.
I’ve also taken you to task regarding your tasteless comment regarding the refugees that fled the regime post 1975. The UNHCR tells us that in 1981 alone, 599 Vietnamese women were victims of rape in the South China Sea trying to escape communism. This to you is joke fodder.
You are a real classy guy.
The Vietnamese economy was so badly run in the period 1975 to 1985 that by 1988 remittances from these refugees constituted the single biggest source of foreign exchange. Ever since then the regime has been begging the Viet Kieu to return with their hard earned. If there is a joke in there somewhere - that is it.
The problem with Vietnamese is that they never stop to consider anyone else’s post colonial struggle for independence and how in the absence of communism things might have been different. In 1945 both Singapore and Vietnam were in dire economic straits as a result of the war. Both were governed by European colonists. Did you know that nowadays Singapore sends school groups to tour Vietnam so that their school kiddies can see what poverty looks like?
It is impossible to argue that the Vietnamese people could have been any worse off if they had followed any other path than the one the Lao Dong Party took them down.
Last edited by chippymick; 21st Oct 2013 at 06:50.
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It's an odd thing, the way that our involvement in Viet Nam hangs like a bad smell. I recently went for a simple haircut in McLean, Virginia and found myself instead chatting with two young ladies from Viet Nam, another two who had "voted with their feet."
Let's just say that they probably would not agree with much of anything that our very own Hanoi Jane is putting up here; they would come across as far too "dull" for Jane's fact-free style of dialogue, each point either seized upon, when it has to do with where to get the best fresh monkey-brain salad, or else airily dismissed when it has to do with the obvious shortcomings of the pathetic excuse for a government in today's Viet Nam. In culinary terms, that would be the difference between a roast suckling pig and a meringue: one is much less artful and much more substantial than the other.
One of Jane's fellow travelers and I shared a domicile once. I was bemused to find and read one of her little booklets that held, between its red and yellow covers, the tale of how Tan Son Nhut Air Base had been totally destroyed by the NLF, during their totally successful Tet Offensive.
"But, wait just a goldarn minute!" I spluttered, "I was there, and nothing like that took place! Some of SASless's rude chums showed up with their rocket-firing helicopters, and some of our Air Farce with Skyraiders, and they purely did the pee-whappy on those little guys in black pajamas! Tan Son Nhut was only lightly damaged. It was just that we had to wash our own dishes for a few days, that was all! So, what kind of nonsense is this?"
"Ah," (spoken in a lofty tone). "You do not understand. This is how it was supposed to be!" Art trumps life, so to speak, something only a dullard can fail to understand.
There you have it. There is objective truth, what Jane denounces here as "dull," and then you have this bizarre alternative, emotional truth, what Jane & Co. need to believe. (That's probably about the same for Jane's vaunted ability in flying a "Mig" [sic], not that we could ever get to the bottom of that little side-issue.)
If present-day Viet Nam is ruled by a corrupt clique of pseudo-Communists, well... never mind that! Just look at the scenery, and taste those fresh monkey brains! Mmm-mmm, good!
It's the same basic message we get about modern Cuba, all this tosh about friendly people, beautiful scenery and good food, as if the sufferings of a citizenry under misrule are of no consequence, as they are not to true believers in their own petty reality, those who exist like water striders, curious little insects who move about on the surface, largely oblivious to what goes on beneath, dull reality.
Let's just say that they probably would not agree with much of anything that our very own Hanoi Jane is putting up here; they would come across as far too "dull" for Jane's fact-free style of dialogue, each point either seized upon, when it has to do with where to get the best fresh monkey-brain salad, or else airily dismissed when it has to do with the obvious shortcomings of the pathetic excuse for a government in today's Viet Nam. In culinary terms, that would be the difference between a roast suckling pig and a meringue: one is much less artful and much more substantial than the other.
One of Jane's fellow travelers and I shared a domicile once. I was bemused to find and read one of her little booklets that held, between its red and yellow covers, the tale of how Tan Son Nhut Air Base had been totally destroyed by the NLF, during their totally successful Tet Offensive.
"But, wait just a goldarn minute!" I spluttered, "I was there, and nothing like that took place! Some of SASless's rude chums showed up with their rocket-firing helicopters, and some of our Air Farce with Skyraiders, and they purely did the pee-whappy on those little guys in black pajamas! Tan Son Nhut was only lightly damaged. It was just that we had to wash our own dishes for a few days, that was all! So, what kind of nonsense is this?"
"Ah," (spoken in a lofty tone). "You do not understand. This is how it was supposed to be!" Art trumps life, so to speak, something only a dullard can fail to understand.
There you have it. There is objective truth, what Jane denounces here as "dull," and then you have this bizarre alternative, emotional truth, what Jane & Co. need to believe. (That's probably about the same for Jane's vaunted ability in flying a "Mig" [sic], not that we could ever get to the bottom of that little side-issue.)
If present-day Viet Nam is ruled by a corrupt clique of pseudo-Communists, well... never mind that! Just look at the scenery, and taste those fresh monkey brains! Mmm-mmm, good!
It's the same basic message we get about modern Cuba, all this tosh about friendly people, beautiful scenery and good food, as if the sufferings of a citizenry under misrule are of no consequence, as they are not to true believers in their own petty reality, those who exist like water striders, curious little insects who move about on the surface, largely oblivious to what goes on beneath, dull reality.
Last edited by chuks; 21st Oct 2013 at 06:58.
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Gentlemen of PPRuNe,
I did point out somewhere along the line that one of the hats I wear is as a writer. The more astute among you may have concluded I was collecting material. Indeed I was.
I've been commissioned to write a piece based around Giap's death and the present-day views the military and ex-military on his passing and on their perception of Viet Nam in general. Where better to start than here? Here I don't get PR speak, I get real emotion. Thank you for your passion.
I'd also like to thank those from non-combatant nations who participated in this discussion. Your contributions were marked by eloquence and a balanced view of matters. They will be included in my work.
If you entered into PM correspondence with me on this (or indeed any) subject, fear not, for I will, of course, respect your right to privacy.
Please, Wholigan, don't start wailing about 'copyright'. Viet Nam is not a signatory to international agreements on such things. I already have screen shots of everything I need and I shall quote as I see fit.
As I'm now OBVIOUSLY banned, I regret that our exchanges are at an end.
PN, I shall miss our little chats. Please, do write the book. You have a lot to say, an interesting way of saying it, and you seem to epitomise the finer qualities of a dying generation. Plus you're funny. I would love to read it.
It's been a giggle. Thanks to all. Stay safe.
HJ
I did point out somewhere along the line that one of the hats I wear is as a writer. The more astute among you may have concluded I was collecting material. Indeed I was.
I've been commissioned to write a piece based around Giap's death and the present-day views the military and ex-military on his passing and on their perception of Viet Nam in general. Where better to start than here? Here I don't get PR speak, I get real emotion. Thank you for your passion.
I'd also like to thank those from non-combatant nations who participated in this discussion. Your contributions were marked by eloquence and a balanced view of matters. They will be included in my work.
If you entered into PM correspondence with me on this (or indeed any) subject, fear not, for I will, of course, respect your right to privacy.
Please, Wholigan, don't start wailing about 'copyright'. Viet Nam is not a signatory to international agreements on such things. I already have screen shots of everything I need and I shall quote as I see fit.
As I'm now OBVIOUSLY banned, I regret that our exchanges are at an end.
PN, I shall miss our little chats. Please, do write the book. You have a lot to say, an interesting way of saying it, and you seem to epitomise the finer qualities of a dying generation. Plus you're funny. I would love to read it.
It's been a giggle. Thanks to all. Stay safe.
HJ
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What a bloody drama Queen.
“As I'm now OBVIOUSLY banned”, Clearly not, as you have OBVIOUSLY posted it.
Why am I reminded of Sebastian and his teddy from ‘Brideshead revisited’?
If you can’t handle the heat, by all means get out of the kitchen. Don’t let the door etc.
Cheers
Mick
“As I'm now OBVIOUSLY banned”, Clearly not, as you have OBVIOUSLY posted it.
Why am I reminded of Sebastian and his teddy from ‘Brideshead revisited’?
If you can’t handle the heat, by all means get out of the kitchen. Don’t let the door etc.
Cheers
Mick
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Citizens of America!
You have re-run the Vietnam war in the movies- and you won!
You can re-fight it on pprune if you wish- and win it again.
Nothings going to change the fact that you had to run away from the real one.
What's that old saying again? 'One should be modest in victory, generous in defeat'.
We don't ever hear much on pprune from 'the other side', either with regard to Vietnam (or Iraq, Afghanistan etc.) and when we do, personally, I think it's great.
The US and Vietnam remain very different places. We all know that.
In my view, it's like comparing apples and bananas.
Vietnam is on the up. I hope they do well, they deserve to and we found the place utterly magical- especially the folk.
The debt-ridden US is a great Country too- and I like the yanks as well. We all know that the US has it's share of problems too though.
As far as Giap goes- well, it's clearly not a one sided pretty picture.
He played a huge part in the defeat of France in his country- I'm really not as sure now how much of a part he played in the downfall of the US there, but the main point remains clear.
You lost- and badly.
And you're still sore about it.
The Viets won, Not once, but twice.
Stunning victories.
And they've pretty much put it behind them.
There's a lesson in there somewhere....
You have re-run the Vietnam war in the movies- and you won!
You can re-fight it on pprune if you wish- and win it again.
Nothings going to change the fact that you had to run away from the real one.
What's that old saying again? 'One should be modest in victory, generous in defeat'.
We don't ever hear much on pprune from 'the other side', either with regard to Vietnam (or Iraq, Afghanistan etc.) and when we do, personally, I think it's great.
The US and Vietnam remain very different places. We all know that.
In my view, it's like comparing apples and bananas.
Vietnam is on the up. I hope they do well, they deserve to and we found the place utterly magical- especially the folk.
The debt-ridden US is a great Country too- and I like the yanks as well. We all know that the US has it's share of problems too though.
As far as Giap goes- well, it's clearly not a one sided pretty picture.
He played a huge part in the defeat of France in his country- I'm really not as sure now how much of a part he played in the downfall of the US there, but the main point remains clear.
You lost- and badly.
And you're still sore about it.
The Viets won, Not once, but twice.
Stunning victories.
And they've pretty much put it behind them.
There's a lesson in there somewhere....
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I'm Australian.
You could have saved a great deal of electrons and typing time and just went with.
"I'm really not as sure"
But don't let me stop you holding forth on a subject you clearly know less about than the late lamented HJ.
Glad to see that you have adjusted your attitude from "Giap was a generals General" to "As far as Giap goes- well, it's clearly not a one sided pretty picture."
Feel free to backpedal as fast as you can manage.
Cheers
Mick
You could have saved a great deal of electrons and typing time and just went with.
"I'm really not as sure"
But don't let me stop you holding forth on a subject you clearly know less about than the late lamented HJ.
Glad to see that you have adjusted your attitude from "Giap was a generals General" to "As far as Giap goes- well, it's clearly not a one sided pretty picture."
Feel free to backpedal as fast as you can manage.
Cheers
Mick
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It's a matter for interpretation...
As we say, "When I left, we were winning!"
AtomKraft is not backpedaling; he is advancing to the rear!
Odd as it may seem, some historians view our misbegotten Viet Nam adventure as having prevented this "Domino effect," the vision of which helped get us into that fight. Too, some point to our long-term support for the Saigon government, at the cost of much blood and treasure, as showing a reasonable amount of grit and staying power. Perhaps that was not enough to satisfy some chippy little self-confessed pervert, but what of that?
For our opponents to have "won," then I think one would have to see present-day Viet Nam flourishing under some sort of Marxist-Leninist rule that includes, of course, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Not even Jane is ready to put that fantasy forth! No, instead, they seem to have gone for some sort of perverted capitalism while managing to avoid almost all of the democracy that makes America such an attractive place to so many, including, of course, many Vietnamese.
AtomKraft is not backpedaling; he is advancing to the rear!
Odd as it may seem, some historians view our misbegotten Viet Nam adventure as having prevented this "Domino effect," the vision of which helped get us into that fight. Too, some point to our long-term support for the Saigon government, at the cost of much blood and treasure, as showing a reasonable amount of grit and staying power. Perhaps that was not enough to satisfy some chippy little self-confessed pervert, but what of that?
For our opponents to have "won," then I think one would have to see present-day Viet Nam flourishing under some sort of Marxist-Leninist rule that includes, of course, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Not even Jane is ready to put that fantasy forth! No, instead, they seem to have gone for some sort of perverted capitalism while managing to avoid almost all of the democracy that makes America such an attractive place to so many, including, of course, many Vietnamese.
Last edited by chuks; 21st Oct 2013 at 10:59.
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Aww Chuks
Talk about being a sore loser.
Anyway, those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them- and that's precisely what's happened ever since.
Look: we all like the US- but when are you ever going to knock these foreign entanglements on the head?
Let's face it- they're expensive and often turn out badly.
As far as Giap goes, well clearly he was no saint- and not quite the untarnished hero that I thought he was at the outset.
So what?
If he'd done nothing else apart from the campaign that did for the French at DBP- that would be one heck of a legacy right there.
I salute him.
Talk about being a sore loser.
Anyway, those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them- and that's precisely what's happened ever since.
Look: we all like the US- but when are you ever going to knock these foreign entanglements on the head?
Let's face it- they're expensive and often turn out badly.
As far as Giap goes, well clearly he was no saint- and not quite the untarnished hero that I thought he was at the outset.
So what?
If he'd done nothing else apart from the campaign that did for the French at DBP- that would be one heck of a legacy right there.
I salute him.
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Gosh, I can still log in. Wholigan must be more tolerant than I thought :-)
Now that my work is complete, I'm happy to engage in a manner less obtuse than previously. If you forgive my baiting of poor Michael, West Coast, et al that is...
Now that my work is complete, I'm happy to engage in a manner less obtuse than previously. If you forgive my baiting of poor Michael, West Coast, et al that is...
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Loser, moi?
I did my time in the big green machine, including two years in, yes, Viet Nam, got out, used my VA benefits to get some education and then some flying training, and used all of that to go abroad, to be free to live outside the States and put most of that behind me.
Not all vets drive around in big pick-up trucks decorated with gaudy decals of eagles, flags, guns and such, although I do not mind any that do! Try smarting off in the way that you prefer, to a real "sore loser," and then get back to us about how that one worked out! Just look for the sort of dive that has Harleys and pick-up trucks parked outside, go inside, and then start jacking your jaws about our military history in the same way that you choose to, here on the internet. I can guarantee you a fascinating and truly close encounter with a certain segment of our American population.
There is no "sore loser" in me at all, particularly since I agree that we did not do a particularly good job in Viet Nam, no.
If we were to see its people choosing to stay in now-unified Viet Nam, that really might make us "losers," but instead I seem to trip over Vietnamese in the oddest corners of the world, including here in Germany. They came here as fellow socialists during the time of the DDR, and have stayed as street peddlers of cigarettes and such, finding their meagre German existence preferable to life back home.
Here, we have had to put up with some rather childish and perverted provocation from what one can only hope is some sort of artificial construct, "hanoijane." It has been a rather one-sided look at what went on, what has been going on since we left, in Viet Nam. Some of us might have been seduced by the presentation, when I would have to call that "temporary insanity."
If you like saluting such men as Giap, get busy looking up all the others who have scored military successes while ignoring what we like to think of as the rules of civilized warfare. You will be worn out, saluting all the monsters such as Giap, but that's your choice, I suppose. I prefer to turn my back on them; my heroes are to be found in the arts.
Meanwhile, thanks, AtomKraft, for your reminder about the value of learning the lessons of history, even though I think I heard that first some 50 years ago. Perhaps it came across to you as fresh and original, so thank you for that.
Not all vets drive around in big pick-up trucks decorated with gaudy decals of eagles, flags, guns and such, although I do not mind any that do! Try smarting off in the way that you prefer, to a real "sore loser," and then get back to us about how that one worked out! Just look for the sort of dive that has Harleys and pick-up trucks parked outside, go inside, and then start jacking your jaws about our military history in the same way that you choose to, here on the internet. I can guarantee you a fascinating and truly close encounter with a certain segment of our American population.
There is no "sore loser" in me at all, particularly since I agree that we did not do a particularly good job in Viet Nam, no.
If we were to see its people choosing to stay in now-unified Viet Nam, that really might make us "losers," but instead I seem to trip over Vietnamese in the oddest corners of the world, including here in Germany. They came here as fellow socialists during the time of the DDR, and have stayed as street peddlers of cigarettes and such, finding their meagre German existence preferable to life back home.
Here, we have had to put up with some rather childish and perverted provocation from what one can only hope is some sort of artificial construct, "hanoijane." It has been a rather one-sided look at what went on, what has been going on since we left, in Viet Nam. Some of us might have been seduced by the presentation, when I would have to call that "temporary insanity."
If you like saluting such men as Giap, get busy looking up all the others who have scored military successes while ignoring what we like to think of as the rules of civilized warfare. You will be worn out, saluting all the monsters such as Giap, but that's your choice, I suppose. I prefer to turn my back on them; my heroes are to be found in the arts.
Meanwhile, thanks, AtomKraft, for your reminder about the value of learning the lessons of history, even though I think I heard that first some 50 years ago. Perhaps it came across to you as fresh and original, so thank you for that.
Last edited by chuks; 21st Oct 2013 at 12:01.
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I'm whispering here......' You had no business being there in the first place'.
All the **** that followed (including that perpetrated by Giap et al) could have been avoided, if you'd just stayed at home. 55,000 US soldiers and Lord knows how many Viets, would still be alive.
The horrific effects of 'Agent Orange' avoided.
I expect Vietnam would have turned out roughly as it did without the US involvement? But who really knows?
The 'domino theory' was bollocks- and the 'friendly' regime in the south, that you tried to prop up, corrupt.
It was classic misadventure on the part of the US, and I'm just glad that Harold Wilson kept us out.
As for that old quote- sure it's old. So old that many have clearly forgotten it...
I'm whispering here......' You had no business being there in the first place'.
All the **** that followed (including that perpetrated by Giap et al) could have been avoided, if you'd just stayed at home. 55,000 US soldiers and Lord knows how many Viets, would still be alive.
The horrific effects of 'Agent Orange' avoided.
I expect Vietnam would have turned out roughly as it did without the US involvement? But who really knows?
The 'domino theory' was bollocks- and the 'friendly' regime in the south, that you tried to prop up, corrupt.
It was classic misadventure on the part of the US, and I'm just glad that Harold Wilson kept us out.
As for that old quote- sure it's old. So old that many have clearly forgotten it...
Last edited by AtomKraft; 21st Oct 2013 at 12:10.
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Atom
I'm not backpedalling- I'm learning.
Look, I doubt it.
But if you are in the mood for learning. Your newest besty HJ raised ADFA’s Bob Hall and Derrill De Heer’s ‘Wandering Souls’ project.
A thoroughly decent act of humanity that is attempting to locate the graves of PAVN/VC killed by Australians in Vietnam and return personal artefacts – wedding rings, photographs etc. Things that might have been souvenired by Australian soldiers, as is their habit.
How it came about, would probably be described by HJ – Given his doctorate in economics and all, as a ‘positive externality’
What Bob Hall did was to log every contact in Phouc Tuy province in Google map. You see, whenever Australian’s killed VC/PAVN lads, they buried them and made a record of the grid reference where they were buried.
Hall’s original academic brief was to examine how the lethality of the Australian Infantryman could be improved based on the contact reports. His conclusion was that the load needed to be lessened so that more ammunition could be carried and marksmanship can always be improved. That might seem like the bleeding obvious but Hall statistically proved it.
The positive externality is that the Google map information regarding contacts could then be passed on to the Vietnamese who could then act on the information.
Hall and De Heer went a little bit further and contacted all of the Vietnam Unit Associations to see how many personal artefacts that they could potentially return to families in Vietnam.
Bob Hall. Smart and decent guy.
You tell me that 'One should be modest in victory, generous in defeat'.
How does that fit with the treatment of the graves of ARVN soldiers or the attempts to find the bodies of those who died in the re-education camps?
I'm not backpedalling- I'm learning.
Look, I doubt it.
But if you are in the mood for learning. Your newest besty HJ raised ADFA’s Bob Hall and Derrill De Heer’s ‘Wandering Souls’ project.
A thoroughly decent act of humanity that is attempting to locate the graves of PAVN/VC killed by Australians in Vietnam and return personal artefacts – wedding rings, photographs etc. Things that might have been souvenired by Australian soldiers, as is their habit.
How it came about, would probably be described by HJ – Given his doctorate in economics and all, as a ‘positive externality’
What Bob Hall did was to log every contact in Phouc Tuy province in Google map. You see, whenever Australian’s killed VC/PAVN lads, they buried them and made a record of the grid reference where they were buried.
Hall’s original academic brief was to examine how the lethality of the Australian Infantryman could be improved based on the contact reports. His conclusion was that the load needed to be lessened so that more ammunition could be carried and marksmanship can always be improved. That might seem like the bleeding obvious but Hall statistically proved it.
The positive externality is that the Google map information regarding contacts could then be passed on to the Vietnamese who could then act on the information.
Hall and De Heer went a little bit further and contacted all of the Vietnam Unit Associations to see how many personal artefacts that they could potentially return to families in Vietnam.
Bob Hall. Smart and decent guy.
You tell me that 'One should be modest in victory, generous in defeat'.
How does that fit with the treatment of the graves of ARVN soldiers or the attempts to find the bodies of those who died in the re-education camps?
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I’ll bet London to a brick you’ve never heard about any of the stuff I’ve posted. Ask yourself if HJ can’t knock a hole in it, why is that so?
I’m happy to have my perspective challenged.
Can I be bold enough to challenge yours?
Get yourself an early Christmas present go to Amazon buy and read David Marr’s ’
You’ve clearly got an interest in the subject and I think that would be the best starting point for you.
I know that sounds patronising but it is meant with the best of intentions.
Best regards
Mick
I’m happy to have my perspective challenged.
Can I be bold enough to challenge yours?
Get yourself an early Christmas present go to Amazon buy and read David Marr’s ’
You’ve clearly got an interest in the subject and I think that would be the best starting point for you.
I know that sounds patronising but it is meant with the best of intentions.
Best regards
Mick
HJ, due to my limited knowledge in English I can´t visualize if you are being honest or sarcastic. Anyway, thanks for answering me.
PN, thanks also for recommending Ethel & Price book, I am going to check it.
Regards,
PN, thanks also for recommending Ethel & Price book, I am going to check it.
Regards,