EU planning to 'own and operate’ spy drones and air force
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Not frightened of, Tom. Learn what words mean. Wow,,get her! Given your response i'll substitute paranoid for hysterical
Contemptuous of is the words you needed to use there, if it was in response to my post.
An army (or a navy, or an air force) is drawn from the people of a nation. If this "EU" ever becomes a nation, or a nation state, get back to me.
Beagle: good point on the Global Hawk event.
Harry:
Point taken, but the difference is that US of A is already a nation, and loves to bicker in public, whereas the EU isn't one, as there are already well established nations, sovereign nations, in place where the EU (or some of its strongest advocates as an entity) is trying to overwrite itself over that already standing and suitable institution.
More for Tom: As to the jest regarding the Fourth Reich, it isn't about Hitler (he only had the Third (and shortest) one). The jest refers to the Bundesbank's attempts to create an economic "Reich" since the 90's, as well as a reference to Aachen (capital of the First Reich, which was Charlemagne's.) Not sure if putting Saxons to the sword will need to be replayed: hopefully not!
Dude, I never mentioned anything, in jest or otherwise, about Hitler! Wow again - never mind learn what words mean how about you learn to read
With any luck, we'll see a revival of the Guelph's and the Ghibellines as well. Having another Italian as Pope (Argentina is home to a lot of people of Italian ancestry, such as Francis I) is just one more piece of the puzzle fitting together. 
Contemptuous of is the words you needed to use there, if it was in response to my post.
An army (or a navy, or an air force) is drawn from the people of a nation. If this "EU" ever becomes a nation, or a nation state, get back to me.
Beagle: good point on the Global Hawk event.
Harry:
Point taken, but the difference is that US of A is already a nation, and loves to bicker in public, whereas the EU isn't one, as there are already well established nations, sovereign nations, in place where the EU (or some of its strongest advocates as an entity) is trying to overwrite itself over that already standing and suitable institution.
More for Tom: As to the jest regarding the Fourth Reich, it isn't about Hitler (he only had the Third (and shortest) one). The jest refers to the Bundesbank's attempts to create an economic "Reich" since the 90's, as well as a reference to Aachen (capital of the First Reich, which was Charlemagne's.) Not sure if putting Saxons to the sword will need to be replayed: hopefully not!
Dude, I never mentioned anything, in jest or otherwise, about Hitler! Wow again - never mind learn what words mean how about you learn to readWith any luck, we'll see a revival of the Guelph's and the Ghibellines as well. Having another Italian as Pope (Argentina is home to a lot of people of Italian ancestry, such as Francis I) is just one more piece of the puzzle fitting together.
On the upside, it could mean some rather nice posting opportunities
Last edited by TomJoad; 1st Aug 2013 at 14:47.
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To echo Lone wolfs take on things - "when it does get back to me"
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Brick
You know, it's a power trip for them, having their own little army
to order around, plus of course use it to stick a finger up at the yanks !!!
WOFTAM.
I don't like the direction the EU is heading, just like the UN it has
become bigger than Ben Hur and getting bigger.
You know, it's a power trip for them, having their own little army
to order around, plus of course use it to stick a finger up at the yanks !!!
WOFTAM.
I don't like the direction the EU is heading, just like the UN it has
become bigger than Ben Hur and getting bigger.
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And still no answer as to why the USA is hysterical sorry paranoid about the
prospects of such
prospects of such
There, I've answered.
Your turn.
Why does the EU, as the article stated, need or want military and police forces separate from the member, sovereign states' forces?
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Originally Posted by TomJoad
So why are you lot paranoid about the prospects of a unified Europe. Does it threaten your manhood or something
Why should we think that the Cousins are scared of a "Europe Superstate"? I think every US President since Richard Nixon has wanted us (UK) in the Common Market/EU. Their current head sheds have been making some very interesting noises at the prospect of us leaving the EU. After all, only having a single European Power to talk to would be rather convenient.
This is another rung on the ladder of a permanent EU. The more things that are shovelled into the European bucket, the harder it will be to fish them back out and, consequently, harder to disentangle from the European monster. Ask the Jocks about their post independence defence plans.
Anyway, the "spy drones" hardly constitute an Air Force: they have no offensive capability (yet?).
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 1st Aug 2013 at 16:35.
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And still no answer as to why the USA is hysterical sorry paranoid about the prospects of such
And you think you could form a unified EU army, navy and air force. HA!
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personally I'm relaxed about being governed by remote politicians in Brussels as I am about remote politicians in Westminster
none of them give a rats a*** about Joe Public TBH - and the Brussels ones are further away which has to be a good thing
none of them give a rats a*** about Joe Public TBH - and the Brussels ones are further away which has to be a good thing
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 1st Aug 2013 at 16:50.
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I am unaware of "paranoia," but if there is to be a EU military force then perhaps NATO, or at least the U.S.' participation in such can end and we can save the money, bring the few remaining troops home, and let you have at it.
There, I've answered.
Your turn.
Why does the EU, as the article stated, need or want military and police forces separate from the member, sovereign states' forces?
There, I've answered.
Your turn.
Why does the EU, as the article stated, need or want military and police forces separate from the member, sovereign states' forces?
Turning now to your question -
"Why does the EU, as the article stated, need or want military and police forces separate from the member, sovereign states' forces?"
Now finally, in response to your closing statement -
"if there is to be a EU military force then perhaps NATO, or at least the U.S.' participation in such can end and we can save the money, bring the few remaining troops home, and let you have at it".
Last edited by TomJoad; 1st Aug 2013 at 23:00.
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(OK, others have implied the same thing)
Why should we think that the Cousins are scared of a "Europe Superstate"? I think every US President since Richard Nixon has wanted us (UK) in the Common Market/EU. Their current head sheds have been making some very interesting noises at the prospect of us leaving the EU. After all, only having a single European Power to talk to would be rather convenient.
This is another rung on the ladder of a permanent EU. The more things that are shovelled into the European bucket, the harder it will be to fish them back out and, consequently, harder to disentangle from the European monster. Ask the Jocks about their post independence defence plans.
Anyway, the "spy drones" hardly constitute an Air Force: they have no offensive capability (yet?).
Why should we think that the Cousins are scared of a "Europe Superstate"? I think every US President since Richard Nixon has wanted us (UK) in the Common Market/EU. Their current head sheds have been making some very interesting noises at the prospect of us leaving the EU. After all, only having a single European Power to talk to would be rather convenient.
This is another rung on the ladder of a permanent EU. The more things that are shovelled into the European bucket, the harder it will be to fish them back out and, consequently, harder to disentangle from the European monster. Ask the Jocks about their post independence defence plans.
Anyway, the "spy drones" hardly constitute an Air Force: they have no offensive capability (yet?).
Originally Posted by brickhistory
And yet still no answer, besides America bashing which isn't an answer, on "why the EU needs or wants separate military and police forces."
I suspect the idea is that the influence a unified EU Defence Organisation could bring would be greater than that of any of its member states; the premise is debatable of course.
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Tom
Last edited by TomJoad; 1st Aug 2013 at 23:02.
Tom:
You assert emotions that are not present. Called by some "strawman" and by me "someone who knows not of what he speaks."
You demonstrate that you still have no idea what words actually mean, nor can you read for comprehension.
Once agian:
1. No hysteria.
2. No Paranoia.
Spent enough time in NATO when all of the noise and horsecrap about the "European Independent Security Idendity" was being promoted. I noted that the mouths were loud, and the checkbooks silent. The early years of "after the wall NATO" was full of Continental breast beating and swaggering. I saw it first hand.
When the proponents put their money where their mouths are, I'll believe an EU armed force structure ... when it happens. Based on current trends, not gonna happen. If things change, maybe.
For example, ff the US ever pulls out of NATO (which then means NATO no longer exists) I can see a lot of the current members of that alliance forming a similar, European based coalition of some sort. What actual form that takes is wide open, conceptually.
All said and done, most likely such an EU force will be in a coalition with US and Canada, and the usual suspects, just as in NATO is now. Political habits can be hard to break.
I hope I have educated you in the fact that there is no hysteria, no paranoia, and that you need to learn the actual uses and meanings of words that you throw around.
Or, you could just stop spouting a lot of crap. Based on current trends, not likely either.
You shouldn't. The worry of the "heartland" style conquest of the European continent by the Sovs after WW II was resolved over two decades ago.
The political outcome of NATO's reason for existence has led to some curious mutations, to include the "out of area ops" in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere. We grew closer together politically for fifty years than we ever had been before, as nations, thanks to that awkward collection of nations known as NATO. That relationship remains a positive byproduct based on grim reason ... for all of the bickering we exchange across the pond.
And still no answer as to why the USA is hysterical sorry paranoid about the prospects of such.
You demonstrate that you still have no idea what words actually mean, nor can you read for comprehension.
Once agian:
1. No hysteria.
2. No Paranoia.
Spent enough time in NATO when all of the noise and horsecrap about the "European Independent Security Idendity" was being promoted. I noted that the mouths were loud, and the checkbooks silent. The early years of "after the wall NATO" was full of Continental breast beating and swaggering. I saw it first hand.
When the proponents put their money where their mouths are, I'll believe an EU armed force structure ... when it happens. Based on current trends, not gonna happen. If things change, maybe.
For example, ff the US ever pulls out of NATO (which then means NATO no longer exists) I can see a lot of the current members of that alliance forming a similar, European based coalition of some sort. What actual form that takes is wide open, conceptually.
All said and done, most likely such an EU force will be in a coalition with US and Canada, and the usual suspects, just as in NATO is now. Political habits can be hard to break.
I hope I have educated you in the fact that there is no hysteria, no paranoia, and that you need to learn the actual uses and meanings of words that you throw around.
Or, you could just stop spouting a lot of crap. Based on current trends, not likely either.
Originally Posted by Golf
Why should we think that the Cousins are scared of a "Europe Superstate
The political outcome of NATO's reason for existence has led to some curious mutations, to include the "out of area ops" in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere. We grew closer together politically for fifty years than we ever had been before, as nations, thanks to that awkward collection of nations known as NATO. That relationship remains a positive byproduct based on grim reason ... for all of the bickering we exchange across the pond.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 1st Aug 2013 at 22:41.
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Tom:
You assert emotions that are not present. Called by some "strawman" and by me "someone who knows not of what he speaks."
You demonstrate that you still have no idea what words actually mean, nor can you read for comprehension.
Once agian:
1. No hysteria.
2. No Paranoia.
Spent enough time in NATO during a time when all of the noise and horsecrap about the "European Independent Security Idendity" was being promoted and I noted that the mouths were loud, and the checkbooks silent.
When the proponents put their money where their mouths are, I'll believe an EU armed force structure ... when it happens. Based on current trends, not gonna happen. If things change, maybe. If the US ever pulls out of NATO (which then means NATO no longer exists) I can see a lot of the current members of that alliance forming a similar, European based coalition of some sort. What form that takes is open to offers.
All said and done, most likely such an EU force will be in a coalition with US and Canada, and the usual suspects, just as in NATO is now. Political habits are often hard to break.
So, I hope I have educated you in the fact that there is no hysteria, no paranoia, and that you need to learn the actual uses and meanings of words that you throw around.
Or, you could just stop spouting a lot of crap. Based on current trends, not likely either.
You assert emotions that are not present. Called by some "strawman" and by me "someone who knows not of what he speaks."
You demonstrate that you still have no idea what words actually mean, nor can you read for comprehension.
Once agian:
1. No hysteria.
2. No Paranoia.
Spent enough time in NATO during a time when all of the noise and horsecrap about the "European Independent Security Idendity" was being promoted and I noted that the mouths were loud, and the checkbooks silent.
When the proponents put their money where their mouths are, I'll believe an EU armed force structure ... when it happens. Based on current trends, not gonna happen. If things change, maybe. If the US ever pulls out of NATO (which then means NATO no longer exists) I can see a lot of the current members of that alliance forming a similar, European based coalition of some sort. What form that takes is open to offers.
All said and done, most likely such an EU force will be in a coalition with US and Canada, and the usual suspects, just as in NATO is now. Political habits are often hard to break.
So, I hope I have educated you in the fact that there is no hysteria, no paranoia, and that you need to learn the actual uses and meanings of words that you throw around.
Or, you could just stop spouting a lot of crap. Based on current trends, not likely either.
A "strawman" refers to the floating of an idea or paper used to test the water for opinion and to flush out areas of contention. It is a "straw man" because it is there to be knocked down. It is not, taken in all seriousness, as a finished article. Now you have attacked it (the straw man ie the proposal), yes, but your arguments have been highly emotionally charged and laden with pejorative detraction. It is that to which I refer as hysterical and paranoia - the manner and tone, not the argument.
Called by some "strawman" and by me "someone who knows not of what he speaks."
As I said before, I don't get why you are so excited about this! As for your closing statements - really, is that how you want to conduct yourself. My intention was never to embarrass you fella so for that I apologise.
Last edited by TomJoad; 1st Aug 2013 at 22:53.
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Lonewolf_50. You seem to acknowledge most of what I wrote but my secondary point was that the US enthusiasm for the UK being in/staying in the EU may have the intentention of coercing us into staying neatly put. Be that as it may, what the US should be worried about is a politically and militarily unified Europe that is culturally, economically and aspirationally diverse. It will be Defence/Warfare by committee and I shouldn't count on us getting to the right match at the right time; and if we did, expect lots of pleading for injury time. You could find yourselves on your own, in practical terms.
I personally see closer integration of Europe by the politically smart buggers as a catalyst for greater internal unease and, perhaps, public insurrection within the component Nations. How stable and secure would that be?
I personally see closer integration of Europe by the politically smart buggers as a catalyst for greater internal unease and, perhaps, public insurrection within the component Nations. How stable and secure would that be?
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And so far in our press I have seen no paranoia about the suggested EU military/intelligence organization. In fact I haven’t seen much American coverage of the issue at all.
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Ah, but TJ has his firmly-fixed view of what all Americans believe, and (as he showed in the Scottish Independence thread) he refuses to change any of his pre-conceptions no matter how much evidence is offered up, or by whom.
His claim to not comprehend LW50's post is an example of this. The post was clear and direct, but since it didn't match TJ's view he could not admit to comprehending it.
His claim to not comprehend LW50's post is an example of this. The post was clear and direct, but since it didn't match TJ's view he could not admit to comprehending it.
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Ah, but TJ has his firmly-fixed view of what all Americans believe, and (as he showed in the Scottish Independence thread) he refuses to change any of his pre-conceptions no matter how much evidence is offered up, or by whom.
His claim to not comprehend LW50's post is an example of this. The post was clear and direct, but since it didn't match TJ's view he could not admit to comprehending it.
His claim to not comprehend LW50's post is an example of this. The post was clear and direct, but since it didn't match TJ's view he could not admit to comprehending it.
Could not be further from the truth fella.
he refuses to change any of his pre-conceptions no matter how much evidence is offered up, or by whom
examples:
as the South of the Alps crowd could (at best) barely **** up a wet dream)
Welcome the Fourth Reich
And yet still no answer, besides America bashing which isn't an answer
His claim to not comprehend LW50's post is an example of this. The post was clear and direct, but since it didn't match TJ's view he could not admit to comprehending it.
I think your post, above all, sum's up my argument fella, thank you.
Last edited by TomJoad; 2nd Aug 2013 at 09:07.