Astute - Slow, leaky, rusty
In defence of HMS Astute: the commanding officer's statement | UK news | The Guardian
CO seems less bothered, and makes a probably valid point that its miles better than what has gone before.
I'm getting bored of the constant mod bashing - read the comments and its clear the mod has a critical negative perception by the UK public, with highly critical comments by those completely sucking up the media slagging whilst appearing to have little appreciation of reality. Twas ever thus, but christ it is getting tedious. The French don't carry on like this.
CO seems less bothered, and makes a probably valid point that its miles better than what has gone before.
I'm getting bored of the constant mod bashing - read the comments and its clear the mod has a critical negative perception by the UK public, with highly critical comments by those completely sucking up the media slagging whilst appearing to have little appreciation of reality. Twas ever thus, but christ it is getting tedious. The French don't carry on like this.
Last edited by JFZ90; 16th Nov 2012 at 18:40.
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JFZ90,
I think you might find that the public are somewhat miffed at the billions wasted on cancelled projects, projects that come in years late and well over budget. Being over budget and delayed are due to piss poor project management on behalf of MOD Abbey Wood, the armed forces changing their project managers all the time and changing requirements, political decisions that delay projects and add billions and finally, being ripped of by main contractors like BAE.
I can totally understand the negative perception that Civvies have. Stop all the above and the public will stop their questioning and change their attitude.
I think you might find that the public are somewhat miffed at the billions wasted on cancelled projects, projects that come in years late and well over budget. Being over budget and delayed are due to piss poor project management on behalf of MOD Abbey Wood, the armed forces changing their project managers all the time and changing requirements, political decisions that delay projects and add billions and finally, being ripped of by main contractors like BAE.
I can totally understand the negative perception that Civvies have. Stop all the above and the public will stop their questioning and change their attitude.
Last edited by hval; 16th Nov 2012 at 20:42.
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I might be wrong but the French don't carry on like this (IMHO) because when they want an aeroplane and things are getting complicated they simply say to Dassault - "Make us Rafale" - which they then do. When they weren't getting their way on the Horizon class they stuck to their guns and got the ship they wanted.
On the lighter side isn't it nice (and refreshing) to hear a Brit speak up for himself for once. "We're the best, and I'm the CO - which means I'm better than everyone else, so you can listen in or f### off!"
(Or words to that effect - BZ!)
On the lighter side isn't it nice (and refreshing) to hear a Brit speak up for himself for once. "We're the best, and I'm the CO - which means I'm better than everyone else, so you can listen in or f### off!"
(Or words to that effect - BZ!)
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Orca,
What really, really annoys me is that the UK has the worlds fourth largest military budget, yet we seem to have absolutely nothing to show for it. I get the impression we actually throw 50% of the money straight in to a bin. Then we mis spend 30% of the rest.
How can we have such crap equipment and so little of it?
What really, really annoys me is that the UK has the worlds fourth largest military budget, yet we seem to have absolutely nothing to show for it. I get the impression we actually throw 50% of the money straight in to a bin. Then we mis spend 30% of the rest.
How can we have such crap equipment and so little of it?
Last edited by hval; 16th Nov 2012 at 22:01.
We don't actually have crap equipment - in most cases. What we tend to have is equipment that isn't quite what we wanted, delivered much later than we wanted, after much political masturbation, for more money than we'd budgetted for.
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NaB,
I still believe we have/ had crap equipment. Combat high for a start. SA80 as it originally was, Northern Ireland gloves, 58 webbing, Type 42, those aircraft carriers, Upholder class and much, much more.
I tend to agree with your comments otherwise. Look at the Type 45. It could have been so much more. Look at the poorly thought out QE II aircraft carriers. Which gibbering moron had thought processes that do not allow for much the vessel requires.
I happen to like the Astute. Yes it cost more than it should, but blame the politicians for that. Yes there are some quality and design issues, but I am surprised there aren't more. After all it's a bloody complex system. Just a shame it doesn't do Mach 1.
EDIT
Have a look at what Japan and France have for their budgets. Why haven't we got similar or better? Their budgets are smaller than ours.
I still believe we have/ had crap equipment. Combat high for a start. SA80 as it originally was, Northern Ireland gloves, 58 webbing, Type 42, those aircraft carriers, Upholder class and much, much more.
I tend to agree with your comments otherwise. Look at the Type 45. It could have been so much more. Look at the poorly thought out QE II aircraft carriers. Which gibbering moron had thought processes that do not allow for much the vessel requires.
I happen to like the Astute. Yes it cost more than it should, but blame the politicians for that. Yes there are some quality and design issues, but I am surprised there aren't more. After all it's a bloody complex system. Just a shame it doesn't do Mach 1.
EDIT
Have a look at what Japan and France have for their budgets. Why haven't we got similar or better? Their budgets are smaller than ours.
Last edited by hval; 16th Nov 2012 at 22:21.
Back to Mr Large and his expertise (from here):
That's the one. Such an expert is he that they had to suspend a meeting in Gibraltar (where he had somehow conned the Gib government into believing that he actually knew what he was talking about and was therefore suitably qualified to represent their interests regarding Tireless) whilst he had Boyle's law explained to him. Slowly. And repeatedly.
That's the one. Such an expert is he that they had to suspend a meeting in Gibraltar (where he had somehow conned the Gib government into believing that he actually knew what he was talking about and was therefore suitably qualified to represent their interests regarding Tireless) whilst he had Boyle's law explained to him. Slowly. And repeatedly.
hval
its a media myth
as an example, without going into too much detail, who fields effective manpad defences on their large aircraft, and in what numbers?
how do the air forces you quote fair on that score?
its a media myth
as an example, without going into too much detail, who fields effective manpad defences on their large aircraft, and in what numbers?
how do the air forces you quote fair on that score?
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The point you all seem to be dancing around is NOT what has failed already [as some moron pointed out on an-other forum the "leak" was only in the tens of liters 
] but what corporate failings of Bae have yet to surface.
] but what corporate failings of Bae have yet to surface.
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JFZ90,
So MRA4, AEW3, FRES, Delays in QE II, Cost over runs in Astute, Chinnook FADEC project, AH 64 project, Main Battle Tank replacement project, cost over runs and time delays in Typhoon, Swan Hunters contract for Royal Fleet Auxilliary vessels Lyme Bay and Largs Bay and many, many more project failures didn't actually happen?
It is still going on. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded the contract for the delivery of payroll and personnel services to serving and veteran communities to CSC. CSC is currently in legal discussions with the government over its £957 million failed NHS project. I can not see this one being a great success. You can add the MOD Logistics system that loses track of supplies.
The project you quoted is one of the few contracts that has worked.
So MRA4, AEW3, FRES, Delays in QE II, Cost over runs in Astute, Chinnook FADEC project, AH 64 project, Main Battle Tank replacement project, cost over runs and time delays in Typhoon, Swan Hunters contract for Royal Fleet Auxilliary vessels Lyme Bay and Largs Bay and many, many more project failures didn't actually happen?
It is still going on. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded the contract for the delivery of payroll and personnel services to serving and veteran communities to CSC. CSC is currently in legal discussions with the government over its £957 million failed NHS project. I can not see this one being a great success. You can add the MOD Logistics system that loses track of supplies.
The project you quoted is one of the few contracts that has worked.
Last edited by hval; 17th Nov 2012 at 09:27.
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Think whichever country you're from that military projects always go over budget, and never work as they were planned to.
Think the last aircraft carrier they built has spent more time in dock than at sea.
I might be wrong but the French don't carry on like this (IMHO)
cost overruns are not unique to the UK
look at the history of C17 - in the nineties as a project it was a true technical/cost basket case - now look at it. We in the UK are too quick to criticise, often over non-issues.
the example i quoted is, I believe, not just a one off but a great example of where the UK has a significantly better capability than others - conversely you can argue other air forces have serious shortcomings - to the point I wouldn't want to go into theatre on their ac.
you shouldn't belittle that latter point, as at the end of the day that's what its all about!
No leak inquiry it seems on the astute memos - is Bernard leaking to further his absurd GO-CO fantasy one wonders?
look at the history of C17 - in the nineties as a project it was a true technical/cost basket case - now look at it. We in the UK are too quick to criticise, often over non-issues.
the example i quoted is, I believe, not just a one off but a great example of where the UK has a significantly better capability than others - conversely you can argue other air forces have serious shortcomings - to the point I wouldn't want to go into theatre on their ac.
you shouldn't belittle that latter point, as at the end of the day that's what its all about!
No leak inquiry it seems on the astute memos - is Bernard leaking to further his absurd GO-CO fantasy one wonders?
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Q. What corporate failings of BAE have yet to surface?
A. Its a big organisation that cannot manage communications with its customers.
Boeing used to have a subsidiary called Boeing Electronics that made such items as printed circuit boards and control panels for Boeing aircraft systems. In a corporate reorganisation the electronics subsidiary was sold to BAE Systems. Since then it has become all but impossible to get customer support information on these PCBs and panels. They have the most complex and confusing directory system known to man.
A. Its a big organisation that cannot manage communications with its customers.
Boeing used to have a subsidiary called Boeing Electronics that made such items as printed circuit boards and control panels for Boeing aircraft systems. In a corporate reorganisation the electronics subsidiary was sold to BAE Systems. Since then it has become all but impossible to get customer support information on these PCBs and panels. They have the most complex and confusing directory system known to man.
hval
The programmes you cite were indeed high profile screw ups. But I can also see JFZ90's point.
What I always say here is that MoD consistently and flatly refuses to learn from those programmes that are delivered with effortless competence, to time, cost and performance, or better.
If you assessed the history of many of those projects you mention, the common denominator is that people who managed other programmers successfully, in addition to many very experienced and knowledgeable Service personnel, predicted exactly what would go wrong, and were proved correct.
The glaring omission from your list is BOWMAN. The fact that the upgrade to it's HF system (i.e. Comms of choice in AFG) was delivered and fielded before the main BOWMAN contract was even let, is one the THE great embarrassments, which MoD has sought to hide for many years (although, granted, few would know what question to ask). There is something very wrong when a URD is endorsed that begins "As BOWMAN won't be good enough....". MoD should try to learn from this; instead the Programme Manager's biggest obstacle was fighting off those who sought and ordered cancellation, on the grounds BOWMAN could not be seen to be embarrassed. As it was, the anti-brigade couldn't get their act together quickly enough, as it took all of six weeks for the PM to specify, trial, deliver and field a better system than BOWMAN took 20 years to. When the cancellation order was given the kit was en-route to AFG. When the first users later got their BOWMAN kit, it was chucked in a corner at Wattisham.
The MoD culture is to regard these people as "tainted by their experience" and an "embarrassment to the Department", rather than assets to be nurtured. THAT is what is wrong with the procurement system.
The programmes you cite were indeed high profile screw ups. But I can also see JFZ90's point.
What I always say here is that MoD consistently and flatly refuses to learn from those programmes that are delivered with effortless competence, to time, cost and performance, or better.
If you assessed the history of many of those projects you mention, the common denominator is that people who managed other programmers successfully, in addition to many very experienced and knowledgeable Service personnel, predicted exactly what would go wrong, and were proved correct.
The glaring omission from your list is BOWMAN. The fact that the upgrade to it's HF system (i.e. Comms of choice in AFG) was delivered and fielded before the main BOWMAN contract was even let, is one the THE great embarrassments, which MoD has sought to hide for many years (although, granted, few would know what question to ask). There is something very wrong when a URD is endorsed that begins "As BOWMAN won't be good enough....". MoD should try to learn from this; instead the Programme Manager's biggest obstacle was fighting off those who sought and ordered cancellation, on the grounds BOWMAN could not be seen to be embarrassed. As it was, the anti-brigade couldn't get their act together quickly enough, as it took all of six weeks for the PM to specify, trial, deliver and field a better system than BOWMAN took 20 years to. When the cancellation order was given the kit was en-route to AFG. When the first users later got their BOWMAN kit, it was chucked in a corner at Wattisham.
The MoD culture is to regard these people as "tainted by their experience" and an "embarrassment to the Department", rather than assets to be nurtured. THAT is what is wrong with the procurement system.
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If we look at the French carrier situation let us be very clear about one thing. They might have maintenance issues with CDG, but they've had her for ages and have had Gen 4 cat and trap jets at sea on her for donkey's years. In that time we've found CVS too expensive, binned our Harriers to save cash, halved the FF/DD fleet to pay for the monsters that are now at last taking some semblance of shape and are only going to be STOVL carriers.
Which is value for money as far as a taxpayer sees it?
Which is value for money as far as a taxpayer sees it?
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Astute is a bit of a red herring but as ever, the one constant, is those contract 'lawyers' at the MOD and the ever changing 'specs' of all military projects...
..HS125/Dominie reinforced floors? Tucano bang seats/engines? The list goes on....
..HS125/Dominie reinforced floors? Tucano bang seats/engines? The list goes on....