Should've been fixed by now?
FFM,
I admit that I was only told about the Fault Finding course - But I know personally the "old boy" and the two WOs in the "stories".
The fact that Engo's feel that Sgts and Chiefs can't do Walk-Arounds is a sign of trade and responsibility degradation for both senior ranks, commissioned and non-commisioned, and those that should be doing the job.
I agree that military training nowadays is somewhat different to former days, but there is something lacking somewhere! Whether it is financially driven or not - someone, somewhere is not giving the full story to your trainees. I am not a tutor, but even I know that school fault finding tests probably won't cover the huge array of fault finding techniques that are developed and used daily.
Alternatively; your trainees are told to forget their training as soon as they get out and are then converted to "the Real World" from a sengos PoV?
The current practices of many (thankfully, not most) military line staff seems to be to change "a box" to get one more sortie. And when that lands, to change it again, for one more sortie. I hear about this regularly and one example, fairly recently, reached 20+ "box changes" before a fault was sought? In times of no money; How expensive is that?
In my previous job, the price for replacing a broken switch in a secure radio selector box was €17,000...for a little switch. We (not in MOD) did that twice before we learned our lesson.
Leaving the flight safety hazards of this foolish practice aside - How much will it cost for 20+ computer and control boxes (on one aircraft) before someone learns their fault finding lesson?
I admit that I was only told about the Fault Finding course - But I know personally the "old boy" and the two WOs in the "stories".
The fact that Engo's feel that Sgts and Chiefs can't do Walk-Arounds is a sign of trade and responsibility degradation for both senior ranks, commissioned and non-commisioned, and those that should be doing the job.
I agree that military training nowadays is somewhat different to former days, but there is something lacking somewhere! Whether it is financially driven or not - someone, somewhere is not giving the full story to your trainees. I am not a tutor, but even I know that school fault finding tests probably won't cover the huge array of fault finding techniques that are developed and used daily.
Alternatively; your trainees are told to forget their training as soon as they get out and are then converted to "the Real World" from a sengos PoV?
The current practices of many (thankfully, not most) military line staff seems to be to change "a box" to get one more sortie. And when that lands, to change it again, for one more sortie. I hear about this regularly and one example, fairly recently, reached 20+ "box changes" before a fault was sought? In times of no money; How expensive is that?
In my previous job, the price for replacing a broken switch in a secure radio selector box was €17,000...for a little switch. We (not in MOD) did that twice before we learned our lesson.
Leaving the flight safety hazards of this foolish practice aside - How much will it cost for 20+ computer and control boxes (on one aircraft) before someone learns their fault finding lesson?
Last edited by Rigga; 18th Oct 2012 at 22:09.
The A licence is a self certifier within an approved organisation
The B1 is the replacement for the old A and C & X Licences,in old RAF Terms B1.1 is a Rigger,Sooty,Lecky - with some avionic stuff (eg black box change) on bigg'ish aircraft,slightly different tickets for rotary,piston.
B2 is Avionics.
The C licence holder clears the whole aircraft in a large approved company and is really only an administrator
It has to work for light aircraft too but it is totally inappropriate. Engineers need to know subjects only used on large aircraft and conversely subjects applicable to small aircraft are not taught or tested ie no wood,canvas etc
To address the light aircraft maintenance issue the B-3 is being created & is intended to be a ‘lighter’ B1/B2.
Maybe your thinking of the American A&P system,as part of the cert you're required to learn wooden structures,canvas doping & baseball stitch.
Unfortunately under the EASA licencing regime,the so called level playing field RAF,in fact all military technical training/experience is not recognised.
The B1 is the replacement for the old A and C & X Licences,in old RAF Terms B1.1 is a Rigger,Sooty,Lecky - with some avionic stuff (eg black box change) on bigg'ish aircraft,slightly different tickets for rotary,piston.
B2 is Avionics.
The C licence holder clears the whole aircraft in a large approved company and is really only an administrator
It has to work for light aircraft too but it is totally inappropriate. Engineers need to know subjects only used on large aircraft and conversely subjects applicable to small aircraft are not taught or tested ie no wood,canvas etc
To address the light aircraft maintenance issue the B-3 is being created & is intended to be a ‘lighter’ B1/B2.
Maybe your thinking of the American A&P system,as part of the cert you're required to learn wooden structures,canvas doping & baseball stitch.
Unfortunately under the EASA licencing regime,the so called level playing field RAF,in fact all military technical training/experience is not recognised.
Some slight corrections to mil misperceptions.
B1 Licence Syllabii are taught to aircraft weight classes and types:
B1.1 (Large turbine aircraft)
B1.2 (Small piston aircraft)
B1.3 (Turbine Helicopters)
B1.4 (Piston Helicopters)
B3 (Very light aircraft)
It can be seen that Wood and Fabric construction NEEDS to be taught to some prospective engineers. There is also a lot of wood, fabric and composite aircraft "out there" and that means a lot of work out there too.
(If you are being taught wooden construction - don't expect to work on Jumbo's!)
When I did my first Licences (A&C turbine helicopters - now B1.3) I also had to learn about supersonic intakes and exhausts, propellors and wood/fabric structures, Kinetic Knives, Digital Compasses and Mach Meters. Not many heli's with those in 'em.
I currently hold Licences for B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 with some type ratings. I hold a senior maintenance position but I dont have a C licence (In the last 23 years since getting my Licences I haven't done 5 years certifying and I don't need one).
Contrary to popular beliefs and to specifically address the light aircraft Issues; the CAA Section L A&C Licence is still bumping along and will be, possibly, for another few years. (and I think some "D" Licences are still out there too!) They will of course be replaced through expiry dates, when they will be converted to the relevant B1, B2 or the new B3 Licences.
As for the Level Playing Field; "Military Training" is recognised in France Switzerland, Holland.... just not in the UK because, in 2001, the UK Mil declined the invitation to take part!
B1 Licence Syllabii are taught to aircraft weight classes and types:
B1.1 (Large turbine aircraft)
B1.2 (Small piston aircraft)
B1.3 (Turbine Helicopters)
B1.4 (Piston Helicopters)
B3 (Very light aircraft)
It can be seen that Wood and Fabric construction NEEDS to be taught to some prospective engineers. There is also a lot of wood, fabric and composite aircraft "out there" and that means a lot of work out there too.
(If you are being taught wooden construction - don't expect to work on Jumbo's!)
When I did my first Licences (A&C turbine helicopters - now B1.3) I also had to learn about supersonic intakes and exhausts, propellors and wood/fabric structures, Kinetic Knives, Digital Compasses and Mach Meters. Not many heli's with those in 'em.
I currently hold Licences for B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 with some type ratings. I hold a senior maintenance position but I dont have a C licence (In the last 23 years since getting my Licences I haven't done 5 years certifying and I don't need one).
Contrary to popular beliefs and to specifically address the light aircraft Issues; the CAA Section L A&C Licence is still bumping along and will be, possibly, for another few years. (and I think some "D" Licences are still out there too!) They will of course be replaced through expiry dates, when they will be converted to the relevant B1, B2 or the new B3 Licences.
As for the Level Playing Field; "Military Training" is recognised in France Switzerland, Holland.... just not in the UK because, in 2001, the UK Mil declined the invitation to take part!
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Rigga:
The UK national BCAR Section L licences will still be needed as long as there are Tiger Moths, Chipmunks, Dragon Rapides and a lot more Annex II aircraft flying on a CofA. We will continue tio need the D Licence to keep their Gipsy engines going also.
The UK national BCAR Section L licences will still be needed as long as there are Tiger Moths, Chipmunks, Dragon Rapides and a lot more Annex II aircraft flying on a CofA. We will continue tio need the D Licence to keep their Gipsy engines going also.
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With apologies for my lateness to the party...
Ironically enough, the reference to rigging and fabric repair came from the fact that my own B1 notes have been out of the loft this week during a house move and have been passed around the RAF lads as a comparison to the subjects we teach...
Rigga,
With the utmost of respect, I'd have bet my mortgage on you telling me that you knew the subjects involved in those stories. I'd bet it again on the fact that the others involved would tell a different tale. A very good friend of mine had to jump out of a Hawk sliding down Scampton's runway, and I've heard that story direct.. But I'll bet you a pound to a pinch of salt that the pilot would tell a different story...
Are you really suggesting that fortune put an aged aircraft engineer into a position whereby an entire detachment of current and experienced Chinook engineers who have undoubtedly operated the aircraft operationally, in an Afghanistan war zone and have carried out some of the neatest battle damage repairs that I have seen on a operational type... couldn't diagnose a fault on their aircraft, leaving HIM ALONE to single handedly diagnose the fault after 18 years off the aircraft type?
Really?
As goes "my" trainees being turned to the 'real world' by SEnGo's and the like..Engo training has recently been moved, and you can trust my word that the training that the comissioned cadre gets does not even reach 20% of that, that the non commissioned cadre receive and are tested on. PM for details...
What you appear to be forgetting is that 'my trainees' are just that. Trainees. They are trained in exactly the same way that you and I were and come out looking for experience and guidance. You were certainly not the engineer and technician you portray yourself as when you plopped out of the training regime, neither are they... You should not expect them to be.
You speak as if I am unaware of the way things work in the civil world, despite the fact that I have actually been having to earn a living for years!!
Flipflopman
Ironically enough, the reference to rigging and fabric repair came from the fact that my own B1 notes have been out of the loft this week during a house move and have been passed around the RAF lads as a comparison to the subjects we teach...
Rigga,
With the utmost of respect, I'd have bet my mortgage on you telling me that you knew the subjects involved in those stories. I'd bet it again on the fact that the others involved would tell a different tale. A very good friend of mine had to jump out of a Hawk sliding down Scampton's runway, and I've heard that story direct.. But I'll bet you a pound to a pinch of salt that the pilot would tell a different story...
Are you really suggesting that fortune put an aged aircraft engineer into a position whereby an entire detachment of current and experienced Chinook engineers who have undoubtedly operated the aircraft operationally, in an Afghanistan war zone and have carried out some of the neatest battle damage repairs that I have seen on a operational type... couldn't diagnose a fault on their aircraft, leaving HIM ALONE to single handedly diagnose the fault after 18 years off the aircraft type?
Really?
As goes "my" trainees being turned to the 'real world' by SEnGo's and the like..Engo training has recently been moved, and you can trust my word that the training that the comissioned cadre gets does not even reach 20% of that, that the non commissioned cadre receive and are tested on. PM for details...
I agree that military training nowadays is somewhat different to former days, but there is something lacking somewhere! Whether it is financially driven or not - someone, somewhere is not giving the full story to your trainees. I am not a tutor, but even I know that school fault finding tests probably won't cover the huge array of fault finding techniques that are developed and used daily.
You speak as if I am unaware of the way things work in the civil world, despite the fact that I have actually been having to earn a living for years!!
Flipflopman
"Are you really suggesting that fortune put an aged aircraft engineer into a position whereby an entire detachment of current and experienced Chinook engineers who have undoubtedly operated the aircraft operationally, in an Afghanistan war zone and have carried out some of the neatest battle damage repairs that I have seen on a operational type... couldn't diagnose a fault on their aircraft, leaving HIM ALONE to single handedly diagnose the fault after 18 years off the aircraft type?"
No! I'm not suggesting it - it's all true. You'll lose your money.
"Entire detachment"? - more like 4 techies on a jolly. And admittedly, they may not have been the bloodied superheroes you describe who may all have been busy elsewhere with something more important. I can't even say if the techies were from any particular Sqn or not.
My friend works at the airport in question where all visitors are placed just across from the Airport Cafe and along from the hangars (and he's nosey enough to stick his nose in everywhere - especially if it makes Wokka noises) and why on earth would a Sqn send a WO-man (that he worked with as Cpls) out for a snag? (and my friend won't like being called "aged" - he's only 51)
I too spent 10 years on Chinooks up to 1996 (Mk 1's - thats where I met these guys too) and went to FI several times and into KSA/Iraq/Kuwait deserts ripping off heads and gearboxes as I passed the time of day - Doesn't mean I know everything about them either.
"Every day, another lesson".
You're welcome.
No! I'm not suggesting it - it's all true. You'll lose your money.
"Entire detachment"? - more like 4 techies on a jolly. And admittedly, they may not have been the bloodied superheroes you describe who may all have been busy elsewhere with something more important. I can't even say if the techies were from any particular Sqn or not.
My friend works at the airport in question where all visitors are placed just across from the Airport Cafe and along from the hangars (and he's nosey enough to stick his nose in everywhere - especially if it makes Wokka noises) and why on earth would a Sqn send a WO-man (that he worked with as Cpls) out for a snag? (and my friend won't like being called "aged" - he's only 51)
I too spent 10 years on Chinooks up to 1996 (Mk 1's - thats where I met these guys too) and went to FI several times and into KSA/Iraq/Kuwait deserts ripping off heads and gearboxes as I passed the time of day - Doesn't mean I know everything about them either.
"Every day, another lesson".
You're welcome.
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I'm welcome?
Well thank you very much.
It's true is it? I'll lose my money will I? Bloodied superheroes you say?
Not quite, old chap. But nothing you've actually said there changes anything does it? You're blatantly admitting that you've had nothing to do with the type in the last 16 years and certainly nothing to do with what goes on with the daily business of a type that is now carrying out constant operations in a war zone.
Four 'techies on a jolly'... On a jolly? If you had any knowledge of how it worked nowadays, you'd realise how ridiculous that sounds. Nobody does 'jollies' any more without good reason. Back in 2009 whilst working for BAE I was part of a team sent to Prestwick to dismantle a Harrier and bring it back by road to Cottesmore as the RAF couldn't spare the manpower or time to send their own team up, let alone send them on a jolly up there... Things have changed quite dramatically Rigga... But one thing remains the same..
Lessons are only learned by those who want to be taught.
Flipflopman
Well thank you very much.
It's true is it? I'll lose my money will I? Bloodied superheroes you say?
Not quite, old chap. But nothing you've actually said there changes anything does it? You're blatantly admitting that you've had nothing to do with the type in the last 16 years and certainly nothing to do with what goes on with the daily business of a type that is now carrying out constant operations in a war zone.
Four 'techies on a jolly'... On a jolly? If you had any knowledge of how it worked nowadays, you'd realise how ridiculous that sounds. Nobody does 'jollies' any more without good reason. Back in 2009 whilst working for BAE I was part of a team sent to Prestwick to dismantle a Harrier and bring it back by road to Cottesmore as the RAF couldn't spare the manpower or time to send their own team up, let alone send them on a jolly up there... Things have changed quite dramatically Rigga... But one thing remains the same..
Lessons are only learned by those who want to be taught.
Flipflopman
