Hugh Dowding tribute 40th anniversary
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Hugh Dowding tribute 40th anniversary
Been to Moffat on many an occasion and visited the station park where Dowding's memorial is placed - the kids love the boating lake. Nice to see that his legacy is remembered and honoured. Thought others may appreciate the link to the BBC article:
BBC News - Hugh Dowding tribute in Moffat reaches 40th anniversary
BBC News - Hugh Dowding tribute in Moffat reaches 40th anniversary
Last edited by TomJoad; 9th Sep 2012 at 18:14.
The Spitfire du Jour, at Moffat today. Weather was lovely until about an hour before it turned up.
Not the only Spit at Moffat though.
I guess garden gnomes are so last week.
Not the only Spit at Moffat though.
I guess garden gnomes are so last week.
A leader who should have, despite the political machinations of the RAF following the Battle of Britain been made a Marshall of the Royal Air Force. He and in particular Air Vice Marshall Keith Park of 11 Group should be held in the highest esteem for what they did during the Battle of Britain and with others produced an air defense system that has stood the test of time. At that time it may have been emulated but never bettered.
Absolutely agree with what you say air pig. With all the debate about what should occupy the empty equestrian plinth in Trafalgar Square, itself dedicated to the man who saved us from invasion in the Nineteenth Century, the solution seems obvious to me. It should be shared by the statues of Dowding and Park, architect and executor respectively of our salvation in the Twentieth. That is where they should be, not left in some half apologetic backwaters.
Maybe his statue at the 'spirtual' place of the RAF at St Clement Danes is a fitting place for him to be remembered, in that he will always be honoured in celebration of the Battle of Britain every September 15th. Should be on every schoolchildrens tour of London, telling them what a foresighted and thoughtful leader he was, not the celebrity culture of today.
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Never saw Moffat as an apologetic backwater, half or otherwise. Always enjoyed it as a lovely little borders town! Guess it just depends on how you look at the world 
A couple of years ago I had much pleasure in giving a lecture for charity, at a college near Moffat. The title of my talk was: "Air Marshal Dowding and the Battle of Britain" and I chose to trace Dowding's early years before moving on to the various roles which led to him leading Fighter Command until the end of the battle.
I also dealt with the various 'plots' against him but I had then to answer as best I was able the various uncomfortable questions about the way he was treated. These included the thorny issues as to why he did not become CAS, as had originally been intended, why he was not made a Marshal of the Royal Air Force and why he was 'put out to grass' after his tour of the USA. My answers were probably unsatisfactory to some but the fact remains that Dowding didn't just fight the battle, it was his vision and physical preparations that made his command ready and then delivered the goods, mainly through Park's tactical leadership.
I did take some satisfaction from debunking the 'Big Wing' theory and was able to say a little about the success or otherwise of many of the cross channel sweeps which followed the BofB.
Both Dowding and Park have their memorials in London and their reputations are secure. Both are greatly - and rightly - admired and respected by most people; perhaps that's a sufficient legacy for anybody to leave.
Old Duffer
I also dealt with the various 'plots' against him but I had then to answer as best I was able the various uncomfortable questions about the way he was treated. These included the thorny issues as to why he did not become CAS, as had originally been intended, why he was not made a Marshal of the Royal Air Force and why he was 'put out to grass' after his tour of the USA. My answers were probably unsatisfactory to some but the fact remains that Dowding didn't just fight the battle, it was his vision and physical preparations that made his command ready and then delivered the goods, mainly through Park's tactical leadership.
I did take some satisfaction from debunking the 'Big Wing' theory and was able to say a little about the success or otherwise of many of the cross channel sweeps which followed the BofB.
Both Dowding and Park have their memorials in London and their reputations are secure. Both are greatly - and rightly - admired and respected by most people; perhaps that's a sufficient legacy for anybody to leave.
Old Duffer
TomJoad:
Me neither, I must make very clear. Moffat is rightly proud of this illustrious son of hers, and an example to us all in its annual celebration of him. I had in mind a similar acknowledgement by the United Kingdom of the debt it owes both him and his able lieutenant, Air Vice Marshal Park (as he then was), and even more to the point by the Royal Air Force.
That the statues of both Dowding and Harris share the forecourt of St Clement Danes is apt in the sense that both men were acted against by fellow but lesser very senior officers and thus did not achieve the proper recognition they deserved from their own Service, let alone their Nation. It was St Clement Danes that I had in mind when I spoke of "half apologetic backwaters", for it seems to me that the site was seen as a grudging compromise by the forces that still belittle their worth, more particularly Harris perhaps, to this very day.
As you say, Air Pig, St Clement Danes is an RAF spiritual place, rather than a national one. That surely is the point, isn't it? It has taken 67 years for a national memorial to Harris's "Old Lags" to be sited in a national place, as against its own half apologetic backwater as a stone set inside a cathedral. This is a very British syndrome borne out of committees and from behind closed doors, and does us no favours.
Place him and Park in an unambiguous national place and where better than the place dedicated to a previous deliverance from the threat of invasion, ie Trafalgar Square?
Never saw Moffat as an apologetic backwater, half or otherwise.
That the statues of both Dowding and Harris share the forecourt of St Clement Danes is apt in the sense that both men were acted against by fellow but lesser very senior officers and thus did not achieve the proper recognition they deserved from their own Service, let alone their Nation. It was St Clement Danes that I had in mind when I spoke of "half apologetic backwaters", for it seems to me that the site was seen as a grudging compromise by the forces that still belittle their worth, more particularly Harris perhaps, to this very day.
As you say, Air Pig, St Clement Danes is an RAF spiritual place, rather than a national one. That surely is the point, isn't it? It has taken 67 years for a national memorial to Harris's "Old Lags" to be sited in a national place, as against its own half apologetic backwater as a stone set inside a cathedral. This is a very British syndrome borne out of committees and from behind closed doors, and does us no favours.
Place him and Park in an unambiguous national place and where better than the place dedicated to a previous deliverance from the threat of invasion, ie Trafalgar Square?
Last edited by Chugalug2; 13th Sep 2012 at 08:24.
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Chugalug,
My mistake, sorry fella, no offence intended. Anyway good came of it as it prompted your further exposition to the benefit of my education. I agree with you entierly. Cheers.
Tom
My mistake, sorry fella, no offence intended. Anyway good came of it as it prompted your further exposition to the benefit of my education. I agree with you entierly. Cheers.
Tom
Last edited by TomJoad; 13th Sep 2012 at 21:29.
Chugalug, maybe at the memorial at Caple le Ferne along side the pilots statue looking out towards France.
Last edited by air pig; 13th Sep 2012 at 23:55.
Tom Joad:
and none taken, old chap. My fault for not posting unambiguously. Thank you for the opportunity to say what I meant second time round!
air pig, Capel le Ferne "is dedicated to Churchill’s famous “Few” who fought in the skies overhead to keep this country free from invasion" and in a sense is one of the "spiritual places" of which you speak. You have to make a special journey to visit it, just as you do for Alrewas. I think that Dowding and Park, who of course survived their campaigns or battles, should be commemorated rather than remembered, if you see what I mean. In other words the man on the Clapham Omnibus should be reminded of those who led the fight to save the freedom that he enjoys. He might however have issue with TfL as it would have taken him way off route to do so!
I see them not simply as RAF heroes but national ones, deserving of national recognition and exposure. That they are not is more to do with RAF politics than national ones. 72 years after the BoB it is time for the RAF, rather than civilian campaigners, to affirm their success and celebrate them like, well the Royal Navy does Lord Nelson. That will in turn raise the national awareness, then perhaps we might get them into Trafalgar Square (though better not mention it to the Royal Navy. I mentioned them once, but I think I've got away with it).
Chugalug, My mistake, sorry fella, no offence intended.
air pig, Capel le Ferne "is dedicated to Churchill’s famous “Few” who fought in the skies overhead to keep this country free from invasion" and in a sense is one of the "spiritual places" of which you speak. You have to make a special journey to visit it, just as you do for Alrewas. I think that Dowding and Park, who of course survived their campaigns or battles, should be commemorated rather than remembered, if you see what I mean. In other words the man on the Clapham Omnibus should be reminded of those who led the fight to save the freedom that he enjoys. He might however have issue with TfL as it would have taken him way off route to do so!
I see them not simply as RAF heroes but national ones, deserving of national recognition and exposure. That they are not is more to do with RAF politics than national ones. 72 years after the BoB it is time for the RAF, rather than civilian campaigners, to affirm their success and celebrate them like, well the Royal Navy does Lord Nelson. That will in turn raise the national awareness, then perhaps we might get them into Trafalgar Square (though better not mention it to the Royal Navy. I mentioned them once, but I think I've got away with it).
Last edited by Chugalug2; 14th Sep 2012 at 21:13.
Chugalug, I do sincerely know where you are coming from. The RN has always had far better spin doctors than the RAF but they have had many years more practice.
Where to have a memorial to two great leaders is a difficult question, as in Trafalgar Square they are over-shadowed by the memorial to Admiral Nelson, again a great leader which is why I suggested Caple le Ferne, as you say it is dedicated to the Few. How much better to be also a place to remember the men who led them and sent them into battle during the countries darkest hour.
The political machinations of the RAF and some of its senior commanders is to deplored, in particular Leigh Mallory and Portal, is shameful but the present or recent past senior commanders of the RAF have continued in the same vein. Recent events and campaigns in particular on prune have shown some up in a particularly poor light. But, this is getting off the point.
Politicians would reject, being politicians, the idea of a leader of warriors on the spare plinth but if someone should occupy that spot, I would suggest Leonard Cheshire, warrior and a man of peace and humanity. I would have ACM Dowding and AVM Park on a plinth outside the front entrance of the MoD building to remind those inside the purpose of leadership and integrity.
Where to have a memorial to two great leaders is a difficult question, as in Trafalgar Square they are over-shadowed by the memorial to Admiral Nelson, again a great leader which is why I suggested Caple le Ferne, as you say it is dedicated to the Few. How much better to be also a place to remember the men who led them and sent them into battle during the countries darkest hour.
The political machinations of the RAF and some of its senior commanders is to deplored, in particular Leigh Mallory and Portal, is shameful but the present or recent past senior commanders of the RAF have continued in the same vein. Recent events and campaigns in particular on prune have shown some up in a particularly poor light. But, this is getting off the point.
Politicians would reject, being politicians, the idea of a leader of warriors on the spare plinth but if someone should occupy that spot, I would suggest Leonard Cheshire, warrior and a man of peace and humanity. I would have ACM Dowding and AVM Park on a plinth outside the front entrance of the MoD building to remind those inside the purpose of leadership and integrity.
Last edited by air pig; 14th Sep 2012 at 22:09.
air pig, a thoughtful and valuable post. Thank you. As regards Lord Nelson, he was briefed against in his time and his wishes regarding Emma were ignored after his death, but his fame was universal and grief at his passing widespread. We rightly acknowledged him as a national hero and so he remains. Every 21st October the Sea Cadets parade in Trafalgar Square beneath his statue to honour him and his victory. As you say, the Royal Navy does these things well. We should learn from them.
If the fourth plinth were not to be used to honour Dowding and Park (and I don't think that they would be overshadowed, but merely sharing the square that is dedicated to deliverance from invasion), then as an equestrian plinth it does not lend itself to a single statue. So my other suggestion would be to honour Alan Turing there, riding his bicycle with a gas mask dangling from the handlebars (he wore it to ward off the effects of hay fever). It would fill the plinth, accentuate the eccentricity of the man, and again commemorate a man to whom we should give thanks for our freedom. Like Dowding, Park, and Harris he is typical of our heroes, barely acknowledged while we idolise "personalities".
As regards the MOD, Whitehall Gardens is pretty well spaced out by the statues of Slim, Allenbrooke and Montgomery. There may be more possibilities on the Embankment side of Main Building. My only reservation would be that it is "military" rather than "national" territory. Nelson and Wellington were celebrated on the latter sites at Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park Corner respectively. That is how I feel we should celebrate Dowding, Park and Harris. The first two at Trafalgar Square, the latter at Hyde Park Corner (because he waged the main British offensive against Nazi Germany and ensured final victory over it). The further plus for Harris is that there he could look across towards the splendid memorial to his Old Lags.
If the fourth plinth were not to be used to honour Dowding and Park (and I don't think that they would be overshadowed, but merely sharing the square that is dedicated to deliverance from invasion), then as an equestrian plinth it does not lend itself to a single statue. So my other suggestion would be to honour Alan Turing there, riding his bicycle with a gas mask dangling from the handlebars (he wore it to ward off the effects of hay fever). It would fill the plinth, accentuate the eccentricity of the man, and again commemorate a man to whom we should give thanks for our freedom. Like Dowding, Park, and Harris he is typical of our heroes, barely acknowledged while we idolise "personalities".
As regards the MOD, Whitehall Gardens is pretty well spaced out by the statues of Slim, Allenbrooke and Montgomery. There may be more possibilities on the Embankment side of Main Building. My only reservation would be that it is "military" rather than "national" territory. Nelson and Wellington were celebrated on the latter sites at Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park Corner respectively. That is how I feel we should celebrate Dowding, Park and Harris. The first two at Trafalgar Square, the latter at Hyde Park Corner (because he waged the main British offensive against Nazi Germany and ensured final victory over it). The further plus for Harris is that there he could look across towards the splendid memorial to his Old Lags.
Chugalug, I can only but agree about your thoughts, in particular about Alan Turing, brilliant man, much haunted about being found out that he was homosexual unfortunately social and legal mores at the time constantly depressed this great man.
The service we both love, has a short but glorious history, being only 95 years old, yet our sister forces time of service accounts for hundreds of years. MRAF Harris and his brave crews, from all parts of the world have eventually this year been honoured as you say and the statue of their leader should be with them. Unfortunately in this day and age many historical revisionists have condemned Harris and Bomber Command for their part in the air war against Germany. You have to ask what they would have done.
It is not only a statue that is required but education, and in these days, with a lack of BoB days a RAF stations and fewer stations the public have little contact with the RAF. It shown in that we have no reserve squadrons on the western side of the UK, therefore bringing little contact. Thankfully the ATC/CCF continue to provide a small presence.
Where to place a memorial, I still like in front of the front entrance of the MoD building, just to remind the inhabitants of leadership and integrity.
The service we both love, has a short but glorious history, being only 95 years old, yet our sister forces time of service accounts for hundreds of years. MRAF Harris and his brave crews, from all parts of the world have eventually this year been honoured as you say and the statue of their leader should be with them. Unfortunately in this day and age many historical revisionists have condemned Harris and Bomber Command for their part in the air war against Germany. You have to ask what they would have done.
It is not only a statue that is required but education, and in these days, with a lack of BoB days a RAF stations and fewer stations the public have little contact with the RAF. It shown in that we have no reserve squadrons on the western side of the UK, therefore bringing little contact. Thankfully the ATC/CCF continue to provide a small presence.
Where to place a memorial, I still like in front of the front entrance of the MoD building, just to remind the inhabitants of leadership and integrity.
Last edited by air pig; 15th Sep 2012 at 13:53.
